The False Doctrine of OSAS

[marianna]

Marinna, please be honest with yourself. These passages are not as hard as many try to make them. I do not get any gain in my life by believing we must Obey God, because that goes for me as well.

The only gain I get, is knowing I can be saved if I have the humility to accept what God says.

These were Christians being written to.

Chapter 12 and 13 also show this, but because I dont want this too long, I will save that for when it's needed. Please focus on what these passages are saying.

Obedience is our duty, and Jesus is only saving those who obey - Heb 5:9

In fact, read Hebrews 5:9 and answer this one quesiton:

If Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...what odes that imply of all them that do not obey him.

Before you say, obey means to believe, read Luke 12:43-f., believing that you have a Lord, is more reason to obey, if we dont, then were not saved.

It is not "work based" because obedience is not a work (a deed) but our duty.

And what would I get from believing this? What to do those who fight against this so hard get? A convenient conscience, covered my words like "i am fitly rag" "I trust in Jesus not me" etc.

The fact is, if one does not think he has to keep his commands, he does not trust nor believe jesus ONE BIT.
[/SIZE]

Please don't lump me in with your heaving mass of antinomians! Apparently they're the 99% (including me?) and the 1%of approved super Christians are here at CC!
I've never once said we aren't to obey.

But Jesus is kind and His burden is easy.

We all have sin, and He is there to cleanse us when we confess.

Please be honest with yourself about that.

I will not live in dread of condemnation. I simply won't.

The Holy Spirit testifies to my spirit that I am a child of God, saved by Grace through faith and none of that my own doing.

I do my best to do what He says, and I fail regularly.

Do you know how poorly we all perform? Really? Be truthful.

Are you really honest feedme?

We all want to be more and more like Jesus, and we all fail miserably. He is God, we are not.
But He WILL deliver us home. And we ARE being changed. All of us.

I'll write again tomorrow.

much love, in Christ
marianna

 

[feedm3]

Right.
So if they were solidly in the faith, why does the writer have to convince them that Sinai was NOT the place they needed to think about?

So your saying the letter to the Gal because hey had been deceived by false teachers meanst ehy were

never saved?

Everything about this book is teaching and reminding HEBREWS that they now have a NEW Covenant.

No that they were not a part of the New Covanant, whcih I proved in the part you didn't answer.

Did they or did they not contend with believer and unbelievers?

Not in Hebrews. If they did, show it. Dont just keep saying it.

Did Stephen's sermon sound a lot like the Book of Hebrews?

So? So did Peter's sermon in Acts 2. which both tell who was being spoken to, as with Hebrews.

Ti was being spoken to those how already had the turth and by the time of his writing should have already been teachers.

Are you saying that Paul thought those who were unsaved ought to be teachers?

So you agree it was written to keep them (HEBREWS) from returning to a Covenant and system which would soon be thoroughly and literally demolished?

RETURNING key word. To RETURN you had to leave. They left after they were tought the truth. Then, they were scolded for forsaking the New Covanant and RETURNING TO PARTS OF THE LAW.

Thanks for showing you understand that, so what is your argument?

Gentiles were never included in that Covenant

In what covanant? The Law of Moses? And? what's you point? The book is not convincing Christians to return, but not to return.

So it is applicable to ALL Christians, so to further show why we are not under the OT as some believe we are.

And why us Gentiles should not seek to become proselytes.

Okay. So far you haven't said anything I haven't already said.

I have said MUCH you havent said. You must be hearing what you want.

With the exception that the Book was written to HEBREWS. You state categorically Christians. Saved people.
There is NOTHING which says the audience was all saved individuals.

And theres NOTHING that says they were not - moot.

So then sense it says neither, we need to look at the rest of the book to find out which we should conclude. Showed you that in the part you did not answer.

In fact, everything about it says it was a mixed audience, just like the assembly of Israelites had always been. Some believing and faithful, some who would want to turn back.

Again you say "turn back". Meaning they left. If they left and became Christians. And Paul is warning them that turning back is willful sin, and that their sacrifice for them would be made void, then you agree a christian can lose salvation by returning to the law of Moses.

Of course, you'll say, "no they were never saved".

So then I ask, when they became Christians (or claimed they were) before they sought to "return" why were they not saved?

What in the context of Romans would lead to the conclusion they were not saved.

How can a sacrifice that Jesus made for them "remain no more" if it never was there cleansing them to beging with?

Same as the Gal, how can Christ "become of no effect" if he had not yet effected them?

I mention Gal because it was the exact same problems that is being delt with in Hebrews, and both books are warning the members of the body if they return, they do not have Christ and his sacrifice, neither his grace.

Words like "become" and "remain no more" are important, and though many of you would like them to say something different they do not.

c. 68 AD.
Jerusalem and all the Temple system would soon be GONE (though sacrifices and observances were still taking place, even during the roman jewish wars).

And? Dont get your point here. I agree with you. I think that is what is meant in chapter 10 verse 25 "so much more as you see the day approaching".

I think the "day approaching" was the destruction of Jerusalem, and they could see it approaching by the signs given in Matt 24.

Still dont know what this has to do with what were talking about.

No more sacrifice for sins if they departed from the teachings they had received about JESUS, since no more system would be in place. Within a few short years.

That does not make sense, and is against what Paul taught in Col 2.

The Law of Moses was done away with in 70 AD, it was done away before that, when Christ nailed it to the cross.

If he is saying in Hebrews that this system "would be" not anymore in place, then eh would be implying it still was, and that would also mean that they were still under it.

Yet he said in Col 2, it was nailed to the cross, so there was no sacrifice for sins, ONLY that of Jesus'.

He aslo said in HEBREWS the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, so the ONLY valid sacrifice for sin when he said this, was Jesus' death.

Then in verse 26-f. He contrast those who is writing with those who were under the law. He says they (those who he was writing) were worthy of a more sorer punishment than those who disobeyed Moses' law.

this is because they had been under grace, and by rejecting grace, we are worthy of a more sorer punishment than rejecting Moses.

Also if verse 26 means what you say it does, then it implies that if they DID NOT sin willfully, there would remain a scrifice for their sins, if it was Jesus' sacrifice, and if it "remained" for them, then they had to once have it cleanse them.

Returning to the people )Rabbis etc) who had mocked and called for the Crucifixion was akin to recrucifying Him.

The Book goes on to tell them the Patriarchs NEVER looked for a continuing city (earthly Jerusalem), and that they suffered as pilgrims, persecuted.

The warning was against going BACK to the system which was never intended to continue.

This book was not written for pagan gentiles who had left their own systems. You know this.
I don't see your problem.

I Have no idea why you keep bring this up. Are you trying to switch the subject? When did I say this book was written to pagan Gentiles?

I said it is applicable to ALL Christians. Are all Christians pagan Gentiles?

This has no point to it. It was written to the church, of which many were departing from, and returning to the law. Jews. So what? it still is applicable to us.

The Church - which is the remnant of the ancient assembly of the faithful into which the gentiles were grafted.
But unless i missed it, where is it addressed to A church, as are the other epistles?

Here:
and notice like in chapter 10, he again contrasts those he was writing to with those under the law, showing they were not under the law.

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

So they were not under teh law of fear, and the fearful sight of sinai

So where were they? Keep reading:

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

read the next chapter, in fact, I think you need to read the whole book again. It is so evident these are members of the church, a child can see it.

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him
​

How could they "neglect" salvation they had not had?

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus

How can an unsaved person be called "holy" and a "partaker of the heavenly calling?

How can an unsaved person have Jesus as their high priest and their profession?

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we (we but not you?)hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end

12 Take heed, brethren,(subject - pronouns "we" "us" you) lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

How can an unsaved person be a partaker of Christ?

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat

They fell because of UNBELIEF. Unbelief is the reason people are disobedient.
That's why they didn't enter the promised land.

Unbleif is the reasons many disobey, and lust is the reason many Christian disobey.

Just like the servant in Luke 12:43-f.

This is why James makes the point the devils also beleive and tremble. Showing that belif by itself is nothing. So unbelief is NOT the ONLY reason people disobey.

the Servant in Luke 12: was cast with the unbelievers, yet he believed he had a Lord, and believed he was returning, just did not believe he was returning soon.

But he did, and when he did, he found his servant in sin, and cast him with the unbelievers. Living like an unbeliever in sin, is the same as an unbeliever in the eyes of God - and we see Heb 10:26 applied.

They wanted to GO BACK.
They didn't BELEIVE.

The same message is in Hebrews.

Don't Go Back. There's nothing to go back to.

Agreed. Again going back, implies they left. If they heeded Paul's warnings, they did not need to be saved again, because heeding Paul, and not going back, is repentance

Yet if they ignored him, and sinned willfully, no repentance, then so sacrifice.

What?
Is there a consitent theme throughout scripture or not?
Believe and be saved (and obey becvause you believe), or turn away in unbelief (because you don't believe)?
It seems simple enough to me.

sure there is, yet saying that does not mean that other subjects are not introduced and dealt with. If it is ONLY one theme, then the who book would only be about returning to the law of Moses and nothing else.

The Jewish Christians suffered terrible persecution for their faith.
There are warnings throughout Scripture not to crumple under persecution.
They are not all Israel who are Israel.

Agree totally. Paul means it is not by race one is Israel (God's chosen people) but by Christ we can be spiritual Israel, God's chosen people.

Before one was born into God's family under the law of Moses. Now under Christ we are not born in until we are born spiritually - Jn 3:5

Many would have seen the blessings and heard the news, but just as they do today, they can not break away from what they know (tribally and historically - and today's Jewish people have no more sacrifice for sins...do they)
What's your point?

If people REALLY believe what is written, will they not endure?

Never said that.

I'm already dead to this world. What can man do to me?

Nothing. But you can do much to yourself. You can walk away from God and sin willfully. You can reject his free grace. You can despise it all.

Man cannot make you, only you can. Same with the Hebrews. IF they did not repent, like the Gal too, they would not be saved.

You're reaching.

No exposing.

No, I'm going to look at Hebrews AND every other account. You do what you like.

Thats fine, until you start mixing them together, when they are totally different.

Acts 2 is talking to Jewish unsaved people. That mean Heb is also. Huh?

Yes, you want to isolate that Book for one purpose, yet universalize it for another.

I dont need to isolate it, now your trying to find anything. It goes perfect with Galatians, James, etc.

I said..you cannot stick everything together to try and force a conclusion, like I said matt 4:4 and Jn 17, thats not reaching, it's exactly what your doing.

Because within 2 years there would be PROOF that there was nothing to go back to.

Okay this still has nothing to do with if they were saved or not.

As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” - Hebrews 3:15

Is this about gentiles who weren't delivered from egypt and wandered in the wilderness?
Is the warning one they would have recognized from their own history?

Is he saying IF, IF, today you finally do hear His voice, don't harden your hearts against Him like your fathers did in the rebellion.

He is quoting Psa, and applying to the events that lead up to the NT showing it's superiority and Reenforcing the truth.

Have you never heard a sermon that says IF you want to.. If you do... If we are true....?

That's exactly what this letter was a really long sermon, trying to reeducate those who should have already been teachers.

Kind of like the 60 people that that have been Christians for 40 years and know nothing about God's word.
Hear Him TODAY.

What is so hard to understand?
The warning to heed the gospel is the same for everyone

Your right, it is easy to understand, your attempting to make it difficult with "prove they were saved"? Because I pointed out ONE passage that showed we ought to work not to fall after the example of Israel.

You did not like that, because that goes against what you believe. You wont hear that we can ever fall, no matter what the Bible says, or how plainly it states it.

No, instead you want proof they were saved. Even with all the passages I have given you, it's not proof enough, there is loop hole in each of them, that does not explicitly state they were saved. The fore I have no right to assume by the words spoken these were Christians.

that about sum it up? It's like if it does no say "to the Hebrews who are saved because they are members of the church" it must mean they were not.

Even though nowhere does it say they were NOT saved. So which should we conclude by the remote context of Hebrews?

If you conclude that were not saved out of all those passages, it's only because you want to.

Think about it. What do you gain? A BELIEF THAT no matter what we do we cannot fall.

What do I get? I belief that I better obey God.

It is a shame I have to fight this hard for what I know you can easily comprehend.

Strive to enter the REAL Promised Rest - Christ!
Don't reject the Gospel due to UNBELIEF.

Clearly some were in danger of unbelief and turning back to Judaism!

Turning back - again...the implication.

If they turned back, then they left due to the truth. So where they not saved before they started turning back? If not why not, and how do you know?

Oh now it suits you to bring in other parts of the scriptures?
No, I believe the writer was convincing them that JESUS IS the Living God.
He describes the Spiritual Rock. All of it.

I never said we could not bring up other scirptures. I said bring up ones that hve nothign to do with this, like the Jews in the Gospels..what is the point?

Does it prove that in some parts of the Bible unsaved people were spoken to? Don't you thing I know that?

Does it prove that because some parts of the Bible speaks to unsaved people, that means all were unsaved if they are in the Bible? NO. so then, it's pointless.

60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quicken; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Just because it says they were His "disciples" doesn't mean they were His disciples INDEED.
They departed due to unbelief.

Yea and?

So your saying that the Hebrews who may have been turning back, never believed at all, because these false disciples who were following him probrraly just for food?

So all those passages your reading about them in the faith, and partackers of Christ, and the church of the first born and etc, are false claims they made, even though it's paul saying it?

I understand you mean if they were never saved, Jesus would ahve known it, but you wouldn't.

And judging by the context, and the things Paul says to them like they ought to be teachers, that would lead you to the conclusion they were not saved.

You could there he is talking to others and here other and there someone else, yet that is reaching.

If you cannot find ONE passage that directs his words form when he started addressing those who partakers of Christ, then it must not be.

But you want to make this about WILLFUL SIN.

Thats funny because I had not even mentioned that, in a debate way, I was talking about Heb 4. that just shows that when I mentioned Hebrews 4 Heb 10:26 came to your mind, and that is the reason for this whole thing.

You dont like what that says either, so loophole time.

And as far as "willful sin" who wrote that? ME?

Why didn't he write "for if we return to the law of Moses willfully" instead he just said willful sin, which means all unrepentant sin in general. Even context cannot change that one.

Funny you brought that up though.

 

[cfultz3]

Seems everything returned to bickering again and who is to be found right and who is to be found wrong. Instead of knowing that each have different material to build upon the foundation of Christ, we look for fault in OUR brothers and sisters. Have we not learned anything worth keeping in our debatee? Whether the poll is finished or not, I am done with it.

 

[feedm3]

Seems everything returned to bickering again and who is to be found right and who is to be found wrong. Instead of knowing that each have different material to build upon the foundation of Christ, we look for fault in OUR brothers and sisters. Have we not learned anything worth keeping in our debatee? Whether the poll is finished or not, I am done with it.

Sorry man, dont mean to run you off. If your referring to me and Marina, honestly felt like we are being pretty civil to each other, i guess that is just in comparison to other conversations Ive had. But if it's us, I'll tone down more.

 

[Abiding]

Hey idea popped in my heard....im thinking since this angle has got sooo much
resistance maybe a different position would be in order. It wouldnt go against
scripture, cause any temptation to handle the word of God deceitfully and get the
same job done.

I was thinking of a thread called "How to lose your salvation"
What do you think fellas?

 

[feedm3]

Please don't lump me in with your heaving mass of antinomians! Apparently they're the 99% (including me?) and the 1%of approved super Christians are here at CC!
I've never once said we aren't to obey.

But Jesus is kind and His burden is easy.

I agree, but easy doe not mean no effort. I think it means more along the same lines of what Peter said, "his commands are not grievous". IF you think about it, his commands only benifiet us and others, not Him.

We all have sin, and He is there to cleanse us when we confess.

Yes, if we repent and confess. Of course I think confessing is along with repentance, not that we can continue in sin confessing it while were doing it, expecting forgiveness.

Please be honest with yourself about that.

I am. I never claimed to be perfect, flawless. It's weird how many seem to think if one believes he MUST obey God to go to heaven, then he also must believe he is perfect. That is not the case.

I will not live in dread of condemnation. I simply won't.

I will not either, unless I am living in sin, then I will fear that if I die in that state, I will have to face God about them.

Take heed lest ye fall.

The Holy Spirit testifies to my spirit that I am a child of God, saved by Grace through faith and none of that my own doing.

Of course not. Could give yourself grace? make yourself a child of God, even know God without him revealing these things to us.

Yet just because he has requirements, does not mean we did it ourselves.

When Jesus said if ye love me keep my commands, it does not mean because you must keep his commands to show you love him, that you were able to love him all on your own.

You would not have known to do that if he did not tell you.

I do my best to do what He says, and I fail regularly.

Thank God for repentance.

Do you know how poorly we all perform? Really? Be truthful.

yes.

Are you really honest feedme?

Yes, why are you trying to act as if I am not? If you had something to show where I said we dont need repentance, or I am flawless, then I get it.

Yet I have never said anything close to that, so why are you asking me that? Is it because you assume I think I am perfect because I believe we must obey?

I am not afraid to believe what the Bible says. If I start living in sin right now, it will not change what it says. I will not adopt another view to appease my conscience. If I do that I will feel I am not right with God and my salvation is questionable.

That is scary to me. So, I try NOT to sin, if I do, then I repent, confess, and move on striving not to repeat it.

If I thought I was perfect, then i would think we do not need repentance.

It seems I explain that alot. People need to stop thinking obedience means perfection as in flawless, and that people who believe it must believe they are perfect or going to hell.

Sometimes I think people know this is not what I believe, but they need trick themselves into thinking that so they feel they have a valid reason to reject what I am saying.

I'll write again tomorrow.

much love, in Christ
marianna

See you then

 

[feedm3]

Hey idea popped in my heard....im thinking since this angle has got sooo much
resistance maybe a different position would be in order. It wouldnt go against
scripture, cause any temptation to handle the word of God deceitfully and get the
same job done.

I was thinking of a thread called "How to lose your salvation"
What do you think fellas?

Go for it, but I bet it will end up with the same people and all the same arguments - see you there! lol

 

[Abiding]

Go for it, but I bet it will end up with the same people and all the same arguments - see you there! lol

Maybe but i doubt it...I think people have been fighting the implications
of the title more than the fact salvation can be thrown away for a bowl of soup.

 

[feedm3]

Maybe but i doubt it...I think people have been fighting the implications
of the title more than the fact salvation can be thrown away for a bowl of soup.

yea, must have been some really good soup though.

 

[cfultz3]

Maybe but i doubt it...I think people have been fighting the implications
of the title more than the fact salvation can be thrown away for a bowl of soup.

I agree myself. And wish to apology for any devision which I caused between those who are brothers and sisters of God's family. That last post for studying I have in my study of 1 Corinthians made me realize that we all have our own material to build a house (those we led to Christ) upon the foundation of Jesus, the Christ. If in your mind, i acted as if I took the place of the Fire which is to test every one's works (fruits of the Spirit) and reward accordingly, I am sorry for having played that Judge. To those whose true foundation is Christ, have your material and build your house. But, do not forget, there exist a chance to give it all away for a bowl of soup, or for a taste of an apple, even by the means of pride.

 

[cfultz3]

Correction:

to test every one's works (fruits of the Spirit)

Should be:

to test every one's works (to see if they are the works of your spirit by the Spirit or not)

 

[GreenNnice]

Yeah, me, too, sorry, OSAS, I been thinking this too, I miscarriage lot but am dead serious too, and, bottom line God's had me look into the heart of your doctrine, and, be creeped out by making God stay faithful to you, your works can be burned up but you'll still be saved, even though by fire, not saved in first place 'uneasy feeling, insecure, scary' salvation doctrine, and, unless someone else brings it up. I won't bring up my Eph. 2,8-9 thread that put 'grace' into a different perspective , by itself attsiningvsalvation but not without importance adherence to the WHOLE of Scripture which speaks of faith bestowed us, for what God wants us to do, we ACT thru faith, just commom sense, , but, yeah, I thru out all the Lord wanted me too, and, I'm at better peace because I truly don(tcwant another believing in the Lord doctrinally different person from me to become unsecured feeling in their salvation IF it's based on a foundation of Christ, which cee beautifully showed us all. Excellent 'foundation,' cee, the Lord leads (guess that's why we were led to both agree on Corinthians, as its content is powerful indeed , by God, for us to see that our foundation MUST be Christ. And, if it is, then quit lambasting the next guy's faith as if tgey are a condemned sinner going to help. You plant, another waters, the Lord produces the 'build' through our work, and, no, we don't do works for salvation, its by grace, through faith we are saved. Not works, eg I am being serious hammering home that why you continue tobthink this of we believers of Christ by grace through faith is both disheartening and just fuels discontent (malcontent?)

Anyway, my piece is done here, I ended with Titus 3 my last post, that was somewhat of a peace offeringcas well as for us all to understand we are to get along , rememembering the grace of God . So....

I'm done on this thread which ends tomorrow I guess, works for me eg, BITE THAT TONGUE , I know what you want to say, let's ALL try to be argumentative as always but nicer from now on, I truly believe that is what Jesus would want, that is , too, what then therefore, Jesus would do

Peace, Christbros of OSAS doctrine and Christsis' and my other brie and SIS in the Lord of the other camp, may God give you ALL so much as you ask for 'it' by name.

And, thus, IF all goes well, the Lord leads, this will be my last post on cee's greatly moderated thread.

Way to lead him, Lord, way to lead

Thank you, Jesus, for giving us all minds to think, may we think for You, Lord, all glory, YOU . AMEN, night to ALL my (fellow) Christ peeps Blessings on you all, mari, eg, even grandpa and squirrel even, even rat face (just kidding ya, squirrelman ), ALL OSAS, all other camp, for your all's well behaved behavior today, there just seemed a different aura today , for a day anyway , it was nice

 

[GreenNnice]

Hey idea popped in my heard....im thinking since this angle has got sooo much
resistance maybe a different position would be in order. It wouldnt go against
scripture, cause any temptation to handle the word of God deceitfully and get the
same job done.

I was thinking of a thread called "How to lose your salvation"
What do you think fellas?

Squirrel, yourca wise mind, I'be told you that, it's no secret, squirrel, youvsquidfly diddly. 2 my gave cartoons growing up , BTW, but, nah, I think we'be had enough OSAS battle for one week (maybe one lifetime), so. The Lord leads but give it awhile before we lose our salvation, can it wait until, at least, , Monday ? I kid, but I'm also dead-serious, too , of my personal vote. Nuf said, I'm really done here, between here and rein's thread (do we have salvation yet), I'm exhausted of this all. But whatever, don't stop Or start anything on my account, 'You follow Me.' John 21:22

 

[Abiding]

True believers will always come together sooner or later
but we can rest a few hours in peace i agree.

 

[psychomom]

Hey idea popped in my heard....im thinking since this angle has got sooo much
resistance maybe a different position would be in order. It wouldnt go against
scripture, cause any temptation to handle the word of God deceitfully and get the
same job done.

I was thinking of a thread called "How to lose your salvation"
What do you think fellas?

I like your other thread...the one whose focus isn't the sin, but the Savior. ♥

 

[marianna]

No exposing.

Exposing what exactly though.
This seems to only ever come down to my sin is bigger than your sin or my obedience is better than your obedience. This is not the subject of Hebrews 6.




feedm3, I think you may have me confused with someone else.
Or at least you think I'm making a claim I'm not making.
I read all of your post, several times be be sure I see what your issue is.
I shortened it because it says the post is too long. I can address each point again, but I think I see where I am going sideways in this conversation.

If you actually read what I SAID (not reading into it what others may have said), I do not disagree with you at all - except on one single issue, which carries over into (and becomes a distortion) the whole use of Hebrews 6 over and over again, against (or for, as you prefer) people who are currently and actively professing Jesus and purposing to go to their graves doing so.

With everything that entails; losing old friends; hating sin; finding an assembly of believers; communicating with God through prayer; relying on the Bible as their daily bread; acting on the love He has shed abroad in their hearts; talking about Him to others who don't believe; etc.

As an exhortation to continue in the faith until death - great! as a threat about being cut off due to willful sin, it's terrible! All sin is willful! If we stopped having sin completely on conversion Jesus doesn't need to be High Priest!

I guess I'm trying to say that no one rooted in the truth will depart for a lie. That includes just tossing the Bible out and saying, Oh well, I don't believe now." Maybe they will, but I surely don`t understand HOW that would work.



But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. - 2 Thessalonians 2


With that said, we all know there are people all around the world today, it can be seen everywhere on the internet, who say they "used to be" or "were raised" Christians. They say they are now atheists; or have chosen some world religion. They say generally something like: "I used to believe in God but this or this happened and now I don't believe in that kind of God..."

We know as well that there are people today who do claim the name of "A" christ. and their christ sounds very much like the Biblical, Actual Jesus Christ, but is another christ entirely.

And specifically to the point of the Book of Hebrews and the warning against going BACK to Moses - you will be extremely hard pressed to find many people who were raised in the Jewish Community who convert to Christianity that ever "return" to Moses, since Judaism today doesn't teach Moses. They are converting from a religion that has nothing to do with Moses.

So, what danger is there that is readily recognized TODAY as a departing from Christianity returning to Law (of the sort in the warning in Hebrews)? The only candidate for that is the same as it has always been - people who do not pass from the Old Testament with its shadows, and types, into the New, but seek to be justified by LAW (which could never save).

I am in total agreement that the danger is INSIDE the Church, just as it has always been. The false brothers Paul condemned (anathematized) evidently escaped detection in Jerusalem! They were cursed. This again is in agreement with the parable of the wheat and tares - it's teaching from within the Church about HOW we are justified that is going to make or break it. If the seed falls on good soil, will it not take root.


side thoughts:
What is eternal security based on? (let's forget OSAS for now as it's a trigger).
Do you believe in eternal security at all?



HERE'S THE REASON I REPLIED TO YOUR POST (and before doing so did some looking into your writing) - all this contention in the OSAS threads, if we are honest, always and without fail comes down to...


"if we shall sin willfully.....there remains no more sacrifice for sins"

Right?


So before creating another round of hundreds of posts, isn't all sin willful? (I know there are sins of ignorance; unknown sins that must be covered by Christ as well, I'm not talking about them).

Said another way, is there a single man or woman on earth who is placing their trust in and striving to obey the LORD who does not sin willfully? I know you can't answer for anyone else, but really only for yourself.

Is your sin (and you do have sin) willful or not?

We have a conundrum for those who have a combination of beliefs which have at their core human free will in all areas of life including every part of salvation + whether they actually willfully sin, and when they do they are condemned.

If we are using Hebrews 6 to mean that every Christian who commits a sin after conversion is condemned, not one single person would ever be saved.

Now I know you have made this remark, and I agree (if you read what I said, and did not confuse me with someone else):

Why didn't he write "for if we return to the law of Moses willfully" instead he just said willful sin, which means all unrepentant sin in general. Even context cannot change that one.

So, if willful sin actually means "all unrepentant sin in general", where did you EVER get the idea I said we shouldn't repent of our sin in general, or specifically, daily?

And repentance means not only being sorry for it, but purposing to stop doing it.

There are two kinds of "believers" I can imagine who do not confess their sin to the LORD:

1) Those who believe they are not sinning/have no sin, or
2) Those who believe they are accepted by works of The Law.

So I am back where I started with this issue, particulary in Hebrews - you can determine for yourself (if you dare) whether these people described as "we" included John, and/or whether or not we are 'saved' if there is no truth in us:


1) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. - 1 John 1:8


2) There Is Only One Good News

6I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ.c You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News 7but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

8Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. 9I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed. - Galatians 1



14When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, “Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions?

15“You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles. 16Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”d

17But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not! 18 Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. 19For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God. 20My old self has been crucified with Christ.e It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die. - Galatians 2



Okay?
My point was not the sillt term OSAS.
I do believe in eternal security. I do believe in obeying as best we can each and every day, and confessing when we sin.

My point was the "cut off due to willful sin" = anti eternal security being TWISTED by those opposed to The Grace of God! The warning about returning to THE LAW in Hebrews means there's No Grace, no Sacrifice, no forgiveness for anyone under the Law, even if they are confessing their sin (supposedly), since they are NOT going to the True High Priest, not understanding where forgivness comes from!

So, did they REALLY ever truly KNOW and believe THE TRUE GOSPEL?
If they did, would they have left it? I don't know. What person knows without question that Jesus is the Only Way then leaves Him? Someone who didn't actually believe!

How obvious is it?

All I know is I have absolutely no plans to abandon my faith and trust in the Only One who can save me.
I also know the only reason I can say this is because he gave me the information to begin with!

Without Him - hell and death.
With Him - eternal life and joy.

God Bless
marianna.

 

[marianna]

The shorter version of this, feedm3 is:

I have not seen anyone who believes in Eternal Security state that they are-

1) Without sin and or have no need to confess
or
2) Justified by the Law of Moses.

So I do not understand where the confusion is coming from.
marianna

 

[marianna]

Sorry folks. I did not see all the posts calling for an end to this thread.
I was learning from feedm3 and felt no bickering or animosity.
I will leave this thread though.
God Bless you all in Christ Jesus Our LORD
marianna

 

[feedm3]

Exposing what exactly though.
This seems to only ever come down to my sin is bigger than your sin or my obedience is better than your obedience. This is not the subject of Hebrews 6.




feedm3, I think you may have me confused with someone else.
Or at least you think I'm making a claim I'm not making.
I read all of your post, several times be be sure I see what your issue is.
I shortened it because it says the post is too long. I can address each point again, but I think I see where I am going sideways in this conversation.

If you actually read what I SAID (not reading into it what others may have said), I do not disagree with you at all - except on one single issue, which carries over into (and becomes a distortion) the whole use of Hebrews 6 over and over again, against (or for, as you prefer) people who are currently and actively professing Jesus and purposing to go to their graves doing so.

With everything that entails; losing old friends; hating sin; finding an assembly of believers; communicating with God through prayer; relying on the Bible as their daily bread; acting on the love He has shed abroad in their hearts; talking about Him to others who don't believe; etc.

As an exhortation to continue in the faith until death - great! as a threat about being cut off due to willful sin, it's terrible! All sin is willful! If we stopped having sin completely on conversion Jesus doesn't need to be High Priest!

I guess I'm trying to say that no one rooted in the truth will depart for a lie. That includes just tossing the Bible out and saying, Oh well, I don't believe now." Maybe they will, but I surely don`t understand HOW that would work.



But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. - 2 Thessalonians 2


With that said, we all know there are people all around the world today, it can be seen everywhere on the internet, who say they "used to be" or "were raised" Christians. They say they are now atheists; or have chosen some world religion. They say generally something like: "I used to believe in God but this or this happened and now I don't believe in that kind of God..."

We know as well that there are people today who do claim the name of "A" christ. and their christ sounds very much like the Biblical, Actual Jesus Christ, but is another christ entirely.

And specifically to the point of the Book of Hebrews and the warning against going BACK to Moses - you will be extremely hard pressed to find many people who were raised in the Jewish Community who convert to Christianity that ever "return" to Moses, since Judaism today doesn't teach Moses. They are converting from a religion that has nothing to do with Moses.

So, what danger is there that is readily recognized TODAY as a departing from Christianity returning to Law (of the sort in the warning in Hebrews)? The only candidate for that is the same as it has always been - people who do not pass from the Old Testament with its shadows, and types, into the New, but seek to be justified by LAW (which could never save).

I am in total agreement that the danger is INSIDE the Church, just as it has always been. The false brothers Paul condemned (anathematized) evidently escaped detection in Jerusalem! They were cursed. This again is in agreement with the parable of the wheat and tares - it's teaching from within the Church about HOW we are justified that is going to make or break it. If the seed falls on good soil, will it not take root.


side thoughts:
What is eternal security based on? (let's forget OSAS for now as it's a trigger).
Do you believe in eternal security at all?



HERE'S THE REASON I REPLIED TO YOUR POST (and before doing so did some looking into your writing) - all this contention in the OSAS threads, if we are honest, always and without fail comes down to...


"if we shall sin willfully.....there remains no more sacrifice for sins"

Right?


So before creating another round of hundreds of posts, isn't all sin willful? (I know there are sins of ignorance; unknown sins that must be covered by Christ as well, I'm not talking about them).

Said another way, is there a single man or woman on earth who is placing their trust in and striving to obey the LORD who does not sin willfully? I know you can't answer for anyone else, but really only for yourself.

Is your sin (and you do have sin) willful or not?

We have a conundrum for those who have a combination of beliefs which have at their core human free will in all areas of life including every part of salvation + whether they actually willfully sin, and when they do they are condemned.

If we are using Hebrews 6 to mean that every Christian who commits a sin after conversion is condemned, not one single person would ever be saved.

Now I know you have made this remark, and I agree (if you read what I said, and did not confuse me with someone else):



So, if willful sin actually means "all unrepentant sin in general", where did you EVER get the idea I said we shouldn't repent of our sin in general, or specifically, daily?

And repentance means not only being sorry for it, but purposing to stop doing it.

There are two kinds of "believers" I can imagine who do not confess their sin to the LORD:

1) Those who believe they are not sinning/have no sin, or
2) Those who believe they are accepted by works of The Law.

So I am back where I started with this issue, particulary in Hebrews - you can determine for yourself (if you dare) whether these people described as "we" included John, and/or whether or not we are 'saved' if there is no truth in us:


1) If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. - 1 John 1:8


2) There Is Only One Good News

6I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ.c You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News 7but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ.

8Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you. 9I say again what we have said before: If anyone preaches any other Good News than the one you welcomed, let that person be cursed. - Galatians 1



14When I saw that they were not following the truth of the gospel message, I said to Peter in front of all the others, “Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you now trying to make these Gentiles follow the Jewish traditions?

15“You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles. 16Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”d

17But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not! 18 Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. 19For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God. 20My old self has been crucified with Christ.e It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die. - Galatians 2



Okay?
My point was not the sillt term OSAS.
I do believe in eternal security. I do believe in obeying as best we can each and every day, and confessing when we sin.

My point was the "cut off due to willful sin" = anti eternal security being TWISTED by those opposed to The Grace of God! The warning about returning to THE LAW in Hebrews means there's No Grace, no Sacrifice, no forgiveness for anyone under the Law, even if they are confessing their sin (supposedly), since they are NOT going to the True High Priest, not understanding where forgivness comes from!

So, did they REALLY ever truly KNOW and believe THE TRUE GOSPEL?
If they did, would they have left it? I don't know. What person knows without question that Jesus is the Only Way then leaves Him? Someone who didn't actually believe!

How obvious is it?

All I know is I have absolutely no plans to abandon my faith and trust in the Only One who can save me.
I also know the only reason I can say this is because he gave me the information to begin with!

Without Him - hell and death.
With Him - eternal life and joy.

God Bless
marianna.

Okay i guess I have no idea what your saying then. I posted a passage in Hebrews, you said prove they were not saved/saved. Don't know why then.

Anyway, I think the book speaks for itself, I am not going to get into the really long posts, especially sense I have no idea what your saying. If you beleive we cannot live in sin and have the reward of heaven, then I agree.

As for Heb i think this book really makes that point clear.

 

[Katy-follower]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Do you see those words right there? "You have been saved" - God's gift, received through faith and it was a one time event that we were saved... born again, became a new creature in Christ. Nowhere does the bible say we are saved multiple times, that we lose salvation and are saved again over and over.

Since we were all physically born once and needed to be spiritually born once - would you say it is possible to be physically born a second time? The same is said of the spiritual birth, it only occurs once.

However, we are always being sanctified...

Justified by grace AND faith. James says it's important, how can we possibly not understand this and think that grace alone gets us to Heaven when God's holy inspired Word says different ??? This mindboggles me

Yes, we receive the free gift through faith. You seem to forget the work of the Holy Spirit to draw a non believer to salvation and to continually work in the life of the believer. He convicts people's hearts of God's truth concerning how sinful we are, needing God's forgiveness; how righteous Jesus is, that He died in our place, for our sins; and God's eventual judgment of the world and those who do not know Him (John 16:8-11). The Holy Spirit tugs on our hearts and minds, asking us to repent and turn to God for forgiveness and a new life.

So for you to suggest we lose salvation is denying the work of the Holy Spirit to keep us sealed the moment we are saved.. and denying the Holy Spirit draws a person, which means you are putting all focus on yourself. We are sealed unto the day of redemption, when we receive our glorified bodies. To suggest we are not is to deny God's power to keep us.

Like I said in another thread I just did, WHY would you want to PUT your most heavenly Father of all creation on a YOU will do this or else stipulation !!

We believe His promises, one of which is eternal security given to the believer once they are saved. This is good news, that we are forgiven and cleansed of unrighteousness, made a new creature in Christ. God does not lie. You are denying His promises, which is worrying because all who are saved have had this big weight taken off them. You are trying to dump it back on and are sounding like the lost people in the world that have no assurance and are not experiencing this new life in Christ. So what is the good news you're sharing with the lost world?

If you are continually feeling condemned and not secure in your salvation then you are not really trusting God to keep you. It is also a stumbling block not allowing you to help the lost in the world because you will be worrying about your own salvation and not able to do work that God wants you to do. Ah.. the enemy loves to stop us from doing our work and loves to make us feel condemned all the time. Some of us just ignore him though.

No, it's not a question !!Why !! You will be with Him in Heaven, why in the world would you EVER want to TEST God's faithfulness by saying 'I can go do whatever I want but God will REMAIN FAITHFUL . He MUST !!! You understanding this point, you are supposed to be the child of God YET you are bossing around your Jesus. Why ?

This is all I ever hear from those who don't believe in eternal security. You accuse us of supporting willful sinning. No one supports this. You have to understand that no one is sinless here in the world and many backslide, including some of the disciples, but God calls us back. However, we were always His children, we just drifted into the world for a short time. By your own words and beliefs you must be feeling condemned all the time because you don't believe your salvation is secure. Did you not receive the same assurance the moment you were saved?

By the same token, we should ask why you feel the need to boss Jesus around by denying His work to give us eternal life. You are trying to take something from scripture that's not there.