The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

When YE HEAR PEACE AND SAFEFTY will the pressure be most unbearable?

Or when he is winning over the nations with flatteries?

Or when he does what none have done before him?

Or the 'oneness' the world is feeling, watching the deceiver perform miracles?

Or when seeing others happy and prosperous, the pressure to join in with the world be too much?

Or does the whole world worshiping him as if he were GOD, become the 'way worse than Paul' part?

Maybe it is all the deception and lying signs and wonders he will be performing for the world at that time.

These spiritual wars can be quite trying on your FAITH. It is not doubt, it will be hard to witness people 'spiritually dying' all over the world by watching turn to worship the antichrist.

When the whole world is in unison, under a one world order, under one god and his 10 kings who use all their power together for one purpose with supernatural powers how will the continual 'slaughter' of Christians look to the world?


SEALED NOT RAPTURED, SEALED IN THEIR FOREHEADS BEFORE THE TRIB
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, HOLDING THE FOUR WINDS OF THE EARTH that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have SEALED the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


BEGINNING OF THE LORDS DAY HERE ON EARTH
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice FROM HEAVEN as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders

COME BACK TO EARTH WITH US - REMEMBER HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL NO LONGER BE SEPARATED BY THE 'SEEN VS UNSEEN' WORLD. ALL WILL HAVE BEEN CHANGED INTO SPIRITUAL BODIES***

and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever HE goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

REMEMBER THE KINGDOM, THE THRONE, THE RULE AND REIGN OF THE LORD ON THE LORDS DAY IS ON THE EARTH. THE KINGDOM WAS FIRST PROCLAIMED UPON THE EARTH, THE WORD IS BEING SPREAD ON THE EARTH, THE TEMPLE WILL BE ON THE EARTH, THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH WILL COME TO THE TEMPLE, HIS FEET TOUCH DOWN UPON THE EARTH, IT GOES ON AND ON.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN OR ANY DOCTRINE THAT TRIES TO TELL YOU HE IS NOT COMING BACK TO RULE AND REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

WHAT WILL 'PRIESTS' BE DOING FOR THE LORDS DAY? TEACHING THE WORDS OF GOD.
SATAN IS SEALED AND BOUND - BUT IS SET TO BE RELEASED AT THE END
KINDA LIKE SATAN IS IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW - TO BE CAST DOWN AT THE END
AS WE TODAY ARE BEING TOLD HE IS COMING - DURING THE LORDS DAY WE WILL BE TEACHING HE IS COMING. BABYLON IS COMING TO PROVE THEM JUST LIKE BABLYON CAME AND PROVED US.

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
WORSHIP GOD, DO NOT BE DECEIVED, THIS TIME IT ENDS WITH THE GREAT THRONE JUDGMENT AND THAT IS FINAL.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
SO ONCE AGAIN, SATAN WILL BE RELEASED FOR A SHORT SEASON, WILL GO ABOUT TRYING TO DECEIVE THE WORLD AGAIN

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
SAME WARNINGS WE ARE BEING GIVEN TODAY THAT WE WILL BE GIVING THAT DAY

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of HIS indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
THIS END (FUTURE) IS MUCH DIFFERENT BECAUSE THIS ENDS WITH JUDGMENT AND ALL DECISIONS ARE FINAL. THERE WILL BE NO MORE DAYS OF TEACHING AND PREACHING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL. EVERYONE WHO MAKES IT, KNOWS IT.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
WHO IS OUR REST? THEY NEVER RECEIVE OUR REST


12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

GODS WILL IS ALL COME TO REPENTANCE. WE WORK THROUGH ALL THESE TIMES WITH GOD SO THAT IN THE END, HIS WORLD IS THE WORLD HE CREATED, WORKED AT, AND SUFFERED FOR TO BRING HIM PLEASURE. TRUE LOVE FREELY GIVEN IS A PROCESS. A LONG AND DIFFICULT PROCESS FOR 'SOTTISH' CHILDREN TO GO THROUGH. IN THE END, THERE HAS TO BE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENT. THOSE WHO RECEIVE THE 'REWARDS' DO SO MANY TIMES BECAUSE THEY RECEIVE THE 'PUNISHMENT' FROM THOSE WHO WILL BE JUDGED TO DEATH BECAUSE OF CHOOSING TO PUNISH THEIR FELLOW MAN.

THERE HAS TO BE JUSTIFICATION TO PUT SOMEONE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, THERE HAS TO BE JUSTIFICATION TO GIVE SOMEONE REWARDS. WHAT SEEMS GRIEVIOUS TO US NOW WILL ONE DAY FEEL LIKE ALMOST NOTHING. REMEMBER

FOR THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM...FOR WHAT WE WILL BE GIVEN, WHAT IS BEING ASKED IS NO BIG DEAL. AND HE ISN'T EVEN ASKING US TO GO THROUGH OR DO SOMETHING HE HIMSELF DIDN'T DO. WHY I HATE PRE TRIB. IT IS THEFT AND DECEPTION IN EVERY DIRECTION. IT IS CLEARLY SEEN FOR ALL THE LIES BY THOSE WITH EYES, WHILE THE DELUSION IS STRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE WHO ARE IN THE WRONG.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth
Yea, saith the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them".


TAKING ANOTHER LOOK AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS AND EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WITH THAT RETURN -
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand

SEALED NOT RAPTURED, SEALED IN THEIR FOREHEADS BEFORE THE TRIB
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, HOLDING THE FOUR WINDS OF THE EARTH that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have SEALED the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes"""



yes we can all see they are sealed and not raptured in ch7.

so you made an obvious discovery?

we can also see inly those Jews are sealed, meaning the believers are gone from the planet.

So thanks for the support of the pretribber power point

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have entered the realm of presumption.

As have you. We have no choice when it isn't written.

What have I presumed? And what have I presumed but not admitted it?

When the Bible is silent on something, ANY verse is assumption or presumption.

 

[kleronomos]

Please explain how these verses have any relevance to the discussion. I see none.

Because WE ALL DIED IN ADAM and because they died UNDER THE LAW SO no one died WITHOUT SIN. Meaning, 'DEATH' could hold them in the grave (they had unforgiven sin and so could not go to the God of the LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD)

JESUS came and DIED.
Now not longer UNDER THE LAW but UNDER GRACE the new covenant begins.

WHAT the law could NOT do HE CAN.

Now, once we are SAVED, we are no longer found to be in violation of ALL THE LAW because we have violated one law. t BEING SAVED, we have received the gift of Salvation.
Being saved means the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS washes us clean.
And the penalty FOR SIN has been PAID.
The ransom has been paid.

NO SIN - NO DEATH


John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When He ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

THERE IS SOME PROOF THAT THEY WENT TO HEAVEN.
THEY CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES TO PROVE THAT DEATH NO LONGER GOT TO FEED UPON THE WASHED CLEAN IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION SAVED SHEEP THAT WERE IN THE GRAVES BECAUSE

They accepted the Lord as THEIR SAVIOR just the same as we do.

So death LOST ITS sting. DEATH could no longer hold those because they had no sin.

Christ tasted death SO WE DIDN'T HAVE TO. We didn't have to be perfect to go to heaven any more. All the laws that were contrary to us were nailed to the CROSS.

'BREAK THE WHOLE LAW' LAW that kept otherwise almost perfect people bound, gone.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST PARTS ABOUT BEING SAVED. NO LONGER SEPARATED FROM GOD. WE WILL NOT HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL HE RETURNS for the day of vengeance when He SENDS THE ANGELS TO GET US.


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Answer me this. IF JESUS IS SENDING THE ANGELS TO GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM 'THE FOUR WINDS' (EARTH) AND FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER
HOW DID HIS ELECT GET TO HEAVEN to be gathered?

2 CHOICES PRE TRIB or GIFT OF SALVATION, immediate resurrection.

 

[kleronomos]

meaning the believers are gone from the planet.

It would be written if it were Gods Truth.

 

[kleronomos]

Lol
You omit Jesus standing in front of John on patmos .....lol.... To "prove" he is not standing on patmos in front of John.

SMH.

SHOW US WHERE 'IT IS WRITTEN' so we know it isn't just SPOKEN BY ABSOLUTELY.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, why would you go to presumption? There is NO EVIDENCE that any of these received glorified bodies and/or were taken to heaven.

There is more evidence that they did than that they did not.

There is NO evidence that they received glorified bodies. The FACT that the Bible doesn't say that they did is more evidence that they didn't than that they did.

However, since Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was the first to be resurrected, which means receive a glorified body, we KNOW that NO ONE before His resurrection received a glorified body.

Second, since we KNOW that the ONE resurrection of the saved (Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23) occurs "when He comes (1 Cor 15:23), we know that none of those who were raised back to life received a glorified body, since it wasn't "when he comes". In fact, it was more like "when He LEFT".

So there is NO evidence that any human being has received a glorified body yet, and the Bible tells us WHEN all believers, at the same time, WILL receive their resurrection body, which is "when he comes", 1 Cor 15:23.

Connecting dots isn't assumption or presumption. It's acknowledging the facts that the Bible does say.

Here I show you Here is my evidence that they did, you give me your evidence that they didn't.

1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Doesn't say of them that are or will be saved or will go to sleep in the future

first of them that slept.

None of this proves that anyone has yet received a glorified body. Acts 26:23 is the verse that explains why Jesus is described as firstfruits, and 1 Cor 15:23 is the verse that links that fact to the resurrection of all believers.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This passage proves that the resurrection of all the dead believers and the changing of all living believers occurs at the same event, which is "when He comes" or the Second Advent.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

What do you think these verses prove? Or how they support your view?

AND THEY CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES AND WENT TO TOWN AND SAW PEOPLE AND PEOPLE SAW THEM. THEY WEREN'T IN 'FLESH AND BLOOD' BODIES BECAUSE THOSE DON'T come back to life TO DIE AGAIN.

More presumption. Heb 9:27 says - Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

You are presuming that the verse MEANS "destined to die ONLY once", but it doesn't say that. All the people you think have already received glorified bodies have died again without glorified bodies, because there is NO COMMENT about them getting glorified bodies, or going to heaven. Zero. So you are assuming it.

Every one IS destined to die once. Even the 2 witnesses will finally die physically, in the Tribulation. And they will return to heaven without a glorified body and will await their glorified body along with all the other saints in heaven who are awaiting theirs.

1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit your view. All believers will be resurrected "when He comes". That's way more evidence than your presumptions.

One person, one death. They had that 1st death. So they are either STILL ALIVE walking around on the earth or they ascended when Jesus did.

This is presumption. You are still thinking that Heb 9:27 means "appointed to die ONLY once" but it doesn't say that.

It leaves room for EXCEPTIONS, like all those who you think already received glorified bodies.

HOW WOULD SAINTS BE RAISED? WHAT IS WRITTEN ON HOW THEY ARE RAISED?
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

RAISED IN GLORY. A GLORIFIED BODY.

All of 1 Cor 15 about glorified bodies is in reference to the ONE resurrection of all believers "when He comes".

What verses have you for you best educated guess?

I don't have to guess, assume, or presume anything.

The verses I have actually say clear words about the resurrection of all believers.

1. ONE resurrection of all the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23
2. ALL believers will be in the ONE resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The ONE resurrection is clearly described in Rev 20:5 as the FIRST resurrection, the ONE for all the saved. There is a second resurrection, which is for all the unsaved, when they are called to the GWT judgment. Acts 24:15 says there is one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Yes. This verse simply acknowledges that all humans are born in a natural mortal body. But all believers will be resurrected with a glorified body. The verse doesn't indicate when. But 1 Cor 15:23 does.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because WE ALL DIED IN ADAM and because they died UNDER THE LAW SO no one died WITHOUT SIN. Meaning, 'DEATH' could hold them in the grave (they had unforgiven sin and so could not go to the God of the LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD)

Sorry, but I don't follow any of this.

Every human being will die at least once (Heb 9:27). And all have died IN ADAM. The key is whether a human has believed in the Messiah/Christ/Savior. Those who have then "belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23 and will all be resurrected together.

JESUS came and DIED.
Now not longer UNDER THE LAW but UNDER GRACE the new covenant begins.

I don't see relevance to the resurrection.

WHAT the law could NOT do HE CAN.

Now, once we are SAVED, we are no longer found to be in violation of ALL THE LAW because we have violated one law. t BEING SAVED, we have received the gift of Salvation.
Being saved means the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS washes us clean.
And the penalty FOR SIN has been PAID.
The ransom has been paid.

NO SIN - NO DEATH

Still no relevance to resurrection.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

A great verse showing the past, present and future aspects of salvation.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This "hour" is "when He comes" at the Second Advent and will receive resurrection bodies.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When He ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I don't see any relevance to the ONE resurrection of all believers.

THERE IS SOME PROOF THAT THEY WENT TO HEAVEN.
THEY CAME OUT OF THE GRAVES TO PROVE THAT DEATH NO LONGER GOT TO FEED UPON THE WASHED CLEAN IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION SAVED SHEEP THAT WERE IN THE GRAVES BECAUSE

They accepted the Lord as THEIR SAVIOR just the same as we do.

So death LOST ITS sting. DEATH could no longer hold those because they had no sin.

Christ tasted death SO WE DIDN'T HAVE TO. We didn't have to be perfect to go to heaven any more. All the laws that were contrary to us were nailed to the CROSS.

Lots of presumption here. They simply were "raised to human life" again.

Here's an example of a believer who died and was raised back to life.

Acts 20:9 - Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.

Now, here is the result of what Paul did:

Acts 20:10 - Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!”

And now, what occurred next:

Acts 20- 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.

So, the people TOOK HIM HOME ALIVE. Where is there any wriggle room that he resurrected with a glorified body and then went to heaven? There isn't any.

The young man fell 3 stories and DIED. Paul raised him back to life again. The people took him home ALIVE.

I have no doubt that he died again. It is appointed for man to die ONCE. It doesn't say ONLY die once, as you presume.

'BREAK THE WHOLE LAW' LAW that kept otherwise almost perfect people bound, gone.

?????

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST PARTS ABOUT BEING SAVED. NO LONGER SEPARATED FROM GOD. WE WILL NOT HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL HE RETURNS for the day of vengeance when He SENDS THE ANGELS TO GET US.

I see no relevance to the ONE resurrection of the saved.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The context shows that this verse is after the Trib, and is therefore the ONE resurrection of "those who belong to Him" and "when he comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

Answer me this. IF JESUS IS SENDING THE ANGELS TO GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM 'THE FOUR WINDS' (EARTH) AND FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER
HOW DID HIS ELECT GET TO HEAVEN to be gathered?

2 CHOICES PRE TRIB or GIFT OF SALVATION, immediate resurrection.

No. All saved humans who are in heaven before the Second Advent got there by physical death.

And there are just 2 exceptions; Enoch and Elijah. I believe they will be the 2 witnesses in the Trib, and they WILL get their opportunity to die physically, since Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die.

 

[kleronomos]

Yes "before the flood" setting in vs 38. ( can only be a pretrib rapture)

SPOKEN BY ABSOLUTELY, where 'is it written'? AND FYI ALL THOSE 'WHEN YE SEE'S BE YOU AND ME, AND WE BE CHRISTIANS



THE DAYS OF NOAH AND THE END TIMES. What do these have in common that no other time does?
ANGELS FROM HEAVEN HERE ON EARTH
Strange flesh. Giants. Sons of God with daughters of women. Enoch preached of them.




36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


MEANING SATAN AND ANGELS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN AND ON THE EARTH
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.
AFTER THE WORKINGS OF SATAN.
DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL MAN OF SIN REVEALED.
DON'T BE TAKEN IN BY DECEPTION AND LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS
WATCH, STAND, AND DON'T LET YOUR HOUSE BE BROKEN INTO

AND KNOW
WHY IS A WOMAN TO HAVE POWER ON HER HEAD?
1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.



38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

WHO IS THE WOMAN WHO BROUGHT FORTH THE MAN CHILD?

ISN'T THAT THE CHURCH?

BUT IF THE DRAGON IS CAST UNTO THE EARTH AND THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN THEN HOW DOES THAT WORK?

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

IF THERE IS A FLOOD COMING OUT OF THE MOUTH THAT WOULD BE A FLOOD OF LIES AND DECEPTION WOULDN'T IT?

THAT WOULD PROBABLY CAUSE A FALLING AWAY FROM TRUTH, WOULDN'T IT?

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
SINCE SATAN COMES FIRST THEN THE FIRST ONE TAKEN WOULD BE THE ONE TAKEN IN BY THE FLOOD OF LIES. THE DECEPTION THAT IS COMING UPON THE WHOLE WOULD.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
DO YOU KNOW THE TIMES AND THE SEASONS? OR WILL YOU ALLOW YOUR HOUSE TO BE BROKEN INTO? MAYBE YOU BETTER JUST WATCH AND NOT SUFFER BEING TAKEN OR BROKEN UP.

SATAN COMES FIRST. HOW MANY WAYS HAVE WE HEARD IT NOW?


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[kleronomos]

1 ) paul did not "GO THROUGH" THE GT. ( WHICH OF ITSELF, FORCES YOUR NEW ACCUSATION OF " you think your doctrine will be an escape from what Paul went through"

WHAT PART OF GREAT TRIBULATION BEING GODS WRATH ARE YOU MISSING?

NONE OF THE SAVED 'GO THROUGH' IT

IT DOESN'T COME UPON US, IT FALLS UPON THEM.

THINK, PLAGUES IN EGYPT, THINK CROSSING ON DRY LAND WITH THE SEAS MADE INTO WALLS, THINK 3 CHILDREN IN FIERY FURNACE, THINK DANIEL IN LIONS DEN, THINK KORAH AND FAMILY SWALLOWED UP BY GROUND, THINK FIRE FROM HEAVEN COMING DOWN AND BURNING UP THE SACRIFICE, THINK THE WALLS FALLING DOWN, THINK JONAH IN THE FISH, THINK THE EMERODS ON THOSE WHO HAD THE ARK, THINK DAGON FALLING DOWN BEFORE THE ARK, THINK OF THE BLINDNESS ON THE ARMY, THINK ABOUT THE MANY MANY OTHER WORKS OF GOD THAT SCREAM

DON'T FEAR, I GOT THIS. YOU LOVE ME AND I LOVE YOU. MY WRATH ISN'T FALLING UPON THOSE I LOVE.

DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT SATAN COULD BE THE CAUSE OF THE WORST TRIBULATION THAT WILL EVER BE? SERIOUSLY? DO A STUDY BETWEEN TRIBULATION AND WRATH. IT IS REALLY MESSING YOU UP.

 

[peldom10]

..................



yes we can all see they are sealed and not raptured in ch7.

we can also see inly those Jews are sealed, meaning the believers are gone from the planet.

So thanks for the support of the pretribber power point

Curious...how do you associate them with a rapture effect?

Aren't you using ...jew...in a broad sense...or are you referring to....Hebrews?
We are reminded that Jews...as a religion does not believe in Christ so hardly will they be sealed and protected.

 

[kleronomos]

NOW, you, standing in ashes, go on your little diversion to make it appear , ahem...DECEPTION, that we thing we will have zero persecution, trials, or demon attacks in this non GT timeframe we are in.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU GO THROUGH PREVIOUS TO THE LAST 7 YEARS (shortened) YOU ARE TRYING TO LEAVE BEFORE THE COURSE SET BEFORE YOU IS COMPLETE.


THE FIRST SHALL BE LAST AND THE LAST SHALL BE FIRST

THE LAST GENERATION IS LAST FOR A SPECIFIC REASON

AND IT ISN'T FOR PRE TRIB RAPTURE

 

[kleronomos]

You need to know what our doctrine is BEFORE all those mistakes you make in wild accusations.

WELL IF THAT ISN'T SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE CONSTANTLY BEEN ASKING FOR. PLEASE LAY IT OUT SO ALL COULD SEE IT. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH MORE HELPFUL A COUPLE THOUSAND PAGES AGO BUT ANYTIME WOULD BE GREAT.

OBVIOUSLY I AM WILLING TO PULL OUT EVERY LAST TOOTH TO GET TO IT. I FIGURE IF I CAN ONLY FIND OUT BY YOU CORRECTING WHAT IS WRONG, WELL I AM ALL FOR IT.

I WILL BE MADE TO LOOK THE FOOL TIME AND AGAIN IF IT MEANS WE GET TO GODS TRUTH. BECAUSE GODS TRUTH IS THE ONE AND ONLY THING THAT MATTERS TO ME.

 

[kleronomos]

Like i say.
My job is to make you go against the bible.

HOWS THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU?

STILL WHERE IS IT WRITTEN?

STAGES? NO. THERE ARE NO 'STAGES' THERE IS JUST A CONTINUOUS RESURRECTION ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL THE MOMENT THE ALIVE AND REMAINING ARE CHANGED.

JESUS, IS THE HIGHEST OF RANK. THAT IS HOW HE IS THE FIRST, CHIEF, NOT THE FIRST IN ORDER.

WE ALL WATCHED HIM RAISE LAZARUS DIDN'T WE? THAT DEFINITELY CAME BEFORE HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION.

HOW MANY HAVE GONE FROM SPIRITUALLY DEAD TO SAVED? THOSE ARE RAISING UPS AREN'T THEY? SO WE HAVE THOSE RESURRECTIONS TOO.

 

[kleronomos]

"""TAKING ANOTHER LOOK AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS AND EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WITH THAT RETURN -
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.""""

UH...NO...YOU or anyone else does NOT see Jesus returning TO EARTH with millions of saints blackening the sky as warriors on horses. In rev14:14.

But again you need the bible changed, because EVEN IF IT WERE the rapture in rev 14:14 YOU STILL FAIL....because the 144k PRECEDE the second coming and are in heaven, BEFORE the supposed rapture of rev 14:14.

Your deal is so poorly thought out and is easily shown erroneous.

So easy to refute your entire deal.

YOU KEEP SAYING IT.



ARE WE REALLY GOING TO KEEP DOING THIS REV 14 THING. I KEEP PROVING THEY ARE ON THE EARTH AND NOT IN HEAVEN.

IF THEY WERE GOING TO BE TAKEN TO HEAVEN

THEN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO HEAVEN RIGHT THEN

AND WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED TO BE SEALED BEFORE

THE FOUR WINDS WERE RELEASED

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE FOUR WINDS MEAN? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE TIMING WE ARE GIVEN THERE?


Psalm 104:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds HIS CHARIOT who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.


Psalm 68:32 Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
33 To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.
34 Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and HIS STRENGTH is in the clouds.
35 O God, Thou art terrible out of Thy holy places: the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people. Blessed be God.


Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

 

[kleronomos]

The testimomy starts with Jesus standing before John on patmos.
That is vs 10.

You read the "forward" where John relates The different " players" that speak to him.
1) Jesus
2) angels.

Another fail by you

SMH

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL UNTO HIS SERVANT JOHN
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
ARE YOU SAYING YOU BELIEVE THIS HAPPENED AND JESUS CAME TO PATMOS? IF SO THEN EVERY EYE WOULD HAVE SEEN HIM. NOT TO MENTION WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THIS MESSAGE

AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL UNTO HIS SERVANT JOHN. We don't get to skip over the parts we don't like. We don't get to change what is said to fit our doctrines. WE NEED to change our doctrines to FIT WHAT IS WRITTEN.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

TO BAD HE WASN'T IN THE FINAL GENERATION AS HE OBVIOUSLY WOULD BE WILLING TO STAND FOR THE WORD OF GOD AND FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

AGAIN, AND HE SENT AND SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL UNTO HIS SERVANT JOHN. There is no more and there is no less there is only this truth.

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

[kleronomos]

"""SO WHAT is your point? YES, SOME LOSE THEIR LIVES. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? SOME LOSE THEIR HEADS. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? POWER GIVEN AC TO KILL ALL BELIEVERS REFUSING MARK. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? ALL BELIEVERS KILLED.
SERIOUSLY, WHAT IS YOUR POINT? """

lol

all believers killed , as you stated, means none of you "brave" lol, postribs make to the end of the gt.

you know, what you erroneously claim are " overcomers"

APOLOGIES I forgot to put the QUOTE MARKS. It was your statement I was quoting. NOW that we have gotten that out of the way please answer the question. AND PLEASE DON'T ASK A QUESTION TO SKIRT AROUND THE QUESTION ASKED, PLEASE JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

 

[kleronomos]

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Knowing Jesus made all things (John 1:3) We can understand He knows about days . What time frame will come after what Jesus says is the last day?
In reading
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

AND THAT HAPPENED AT HIS DEATH. MY QUESTION IS

WHY ARE WE STILL SPEAKING OF A LAST DAY RESURRECTION SINCE THE 'LAST DAY' CHRIST SPOKE TO HAS ALREADY COME AND GONE?

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have entered the realm of presumption.

What have I presumed? And what have I presumed but not admitted it?

When the Bible is silent on something, ANY verse is assumption or presumption.

That the day the graves were opened and SAINTS rose that was NOT a resurrection of them who slept.

 

[kleronomos]

There is NO evidence that they received glorified bodies. The FACT that the Bible doesn't say that they did is more evidence that they didn't than that they did.

However, since Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was the first to be resurrected, which means receive a glorified body, we KNOW that NO ONE before His resurrection received a glorified body.

It doesn't say what you think it says.
You think FIRST as in the "first to take place".


Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.



And WE KNOW GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING AND NOT THE DEAD.

And we know GOD IS THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, JACOB.

MEANING THEY ARE LIVING STILL AND ARE WITH GOD AND ARE IN GLORIFIED BODIES.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That the day the graves were opened and SAINTS rose that was NOT a resurrection of them who slept.

Right. I never said it was. Assuming that you are referring to the passage that describes dead saints coming out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection. It doesn't say they "rose to heaven" if you think so.

Matt 27:52,53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So, they "arose...and went into the holy city" (Jerusalem). Nothing about rising to heaven.

Let's not assume/presume.