The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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Dec 15, 2021
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You are admitting Jesus leaves his throne BEFORE satan is crushed.

Is Satan at HIS FEET before Jesus descends and destroys him with the brightness of His COMING? YES, at least this is WHAT I BELIEVE.


So, in fact Satan is at HIS FEET before He leaves the throne HAVING LOST THE WAR IN HEAVEN...CAST DOWN TO THE EARTH

AKA 'ENEMIES MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL'.




UNLIKE WHAT A PRE TRIB WOULD REQUIRE WHICH WOULD HAVE JESUS AT THE FEET OF SATAN. SATAN BEING IN HEAVEN STILL AT WAR

(WOULD HAVE TO BE DURING THE WAR OR ELSE NOT PRE TRIB)

WHILE JESUS DESCENDED TO THE EARTH (WITH WHAT ARMY? ARENT THEY STILL FIGHTING SATAN IN HEAVEN? SOULS WOULD STILL HAVE TO BE UNDER THE ALTAR AS NO ONE IS GOING TO BE TAKING VENGEANCE THAT DAY...)

ALL SO 'THE APOSTASY' CAN BE BROUGHT TO HEAVEN

YOU KNOW WHAT YOU PROPOSE TO BE GODS TRUTH

TO 'FLY AWAY' THE UNDESERVING FULL OF SIN 'CHURCHES' SUCH AS them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication AND them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate ALONG WITH thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and she repented not. WITHOUT DEATH OR JUDGMENT of any kind

as the BRIDE OF CHRIST.
 
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I just (again) pointed out what the 24 elders say in Rev5:9... and they use this same ^ word ("hast REDEEMED *US*... out-of EVERY..."); but in THIS scene, they actually ARE shown UP IN Heaven *before* Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "7 year period" (aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that 1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c refers to when it speaks of the "future" aspects of the Book)
ENGLISH PLEASE
 
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Acts 3:21 -

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

[things promised and prophesied by means of the OT prophets... INCLUDING the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth (but note: the "TIMES" of RESTORATION OF... starts even before that point in the chronology)]

ENGLISH PLEASE
 
Jul 23, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you explain where you see a resurrection of believers in Rev 14?

Well then, what has been your point about the chapter? You've been talking about firstfruits, reaping and harvests seemingly in reference to a resurrection.

So, now that you are clear that ch 14 isn't about resurrection, why is it so important to you?
The 144k are in heaven during the trib. Rev 14 vividly depicts that.

They could have been martyred first, then resurrected.
They could have been raptured.

I don't need it to say one or the other.

I just read what is there and accept it
They are in heaven
They are firstfruits.
They WERE taken from among
men.
They WERE redeemed from the earth.
They are standing before the throne.
They are ethnic Jews out of 12 Jewish tribes

They ARE gathered right before the main gathering of Jews during the trib ....rev 14:14


Psssssst...."Jewish firstfruits"

Such simple reading

Very few can read what is there.

The reason?; ....doctrine.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Absolutely said:
The firstfruits
First stage
Of the first resurrection.

The ONLY SENSE that "reaping" and "harvest" is used in Rev 14 is in regard to God's winepress of His WRATH. And there will be loads and loads of blood.

There is no resurrection in ch 14. And Abs won't cite any verse that he thinks does.
The 144k are firstfruit Jews.
Taken from the earth , ahem, GATHERED TO HEAVEN.
so we very factually have; firstfruit Jews, in heaven, during the trib
No winepress there at all.

The next gathering is MAIN HARVEST OF JEWS.
Rev 14:14

No winepress there at all.

THE THIRD GATHERING ( YOU KNOW, THE ONE GATHERED BY ANGELS, NOT JESUS, IS TO JUDGEMENT)

THERE IS YOUR "THIRD",gathering
..the "WINEPRESS" gathering.

I do realize you can not have any of those facts untortured because you NEED THEM CHANGED.

You either are being obtuse or you can read what it there.

I am beginning to see you have both.
You literally can not read or accept what is there.

You can not do it
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Forgot the 2nd part And NO, I believe what is written and have complete FAITH in the powers of God. Nothing will come upon me that is not HIS WILL. I am more than good with that.

I just wrote out what Rev 6:2 says and it says the first seal is a rider on a white horse who HAS TO BE GIVEN A CROWN and only has a cheap fabric bow is sent out to overcome and will overcome. Then I pointed out how ALL THE CHRISTIANS are told THEY PERSONALLY NEED TO OVERCOME TO receive the promises. I don't see how that could be considered a leap at all. Seriously, it's not like I took a group of people and COMPLETELY RENAMED THEM for the defense of a theory:sneaky:

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 FOR WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES AGAINST POWERS, AGAISNT RULERS OF DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, THAT YE MAY BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND IN THE EVIL DAY, AND HAVING DONE ALL TO STAND

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, WHEREWITH YE SHALL BE ABLE TO QUENCH ALL THE FIERY DARTS OF THE WICKED.

NOT JUST SOME OF THE DARTS? WOULD THAT MEAN NOT JUST FOR PART OF THE TIME, BUT THE WHOLE TIME? EVEN AFTER THE KILLING AND THE BEHEADING STARTS?

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
You do not get it.

You depict pretribbers as inferior due to our weak and cowardly escape.

No pretribber believes that we never have trials or demon attacks, or persecution.

Your conversation can not handle simple truth that " overcomers" are not what you frame them as.
( survivors of the trib).

Enter my objections that go over your head;
Paul, if examined in your exclusive framework as an "overcomer", FAILED, due to the fact he went through mild persecution vs what the earthlings experience during the gt.

So all fail, except you and 10 other "overcomers" running from cave to cave during the gt.

And if you get martyred, which you will due to missing the rapture, then you did not (under your definition) obtain to an "overcomer".

Even after this explanation, you will not properly define "overcomer".
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Is Satan at HIS FEET before Jesus descends and destroys him with the brightness of His COMING? YES, at least this is WHAT I BELIEVE.


So, in fact Satan is at HIS FEET before He leaves the throne HAVING LOST THE WAR IN HEAVEN...CAST DOWN TO THE EARTH

AKA 'ENEMIES MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL'.




UNLIKE WHAT A PRE TRIB WOULD REQUIRE WHICH WOULD HAVE JESUS AT THE FEET OF SATAN. SATAN BEING IN HEAVEN STILL AT WAR

(WOULD HAVE TO BE DURING THE WAR OR ELSE NOT PRE TRIB)

WHILE JESUS DESCENDED TO THE EARTH (WITH WHAT ARMY? ARENT THEY STILL FIGHTING SATAN IN HEAVEN? SOULS WOULD STILL HAVE TO BE UNDER THE ALTAR AS NO ONE IS GOING TO BE TAKING VENGEANCE THAT DAY...)

ALL SO 'THE APOSTASY' CAN BE BROUGHT TO HEAVEN

YOU KNOW WHAT YOU PROPOSE TO BE GODS TRUTH

TO 'FLY AWAY' THE UNDESERVING FULL OF SIN 'CHURCHES' SUCH AS them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication AND them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate ALONG WITH thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and she repented not. WITHOUT DEATH OR JUDGMENT of any kind

as the BRIDE OF CHRIST.
No
Satan is prophesied to end up UNDER the feet of Jesus.
Now you are changing it to "at".

( i am strictly getting into YOUR SHOES HERE)

You have an insurmountable problem.
Jesus leaves his throne to conquer satan.

Jesus LEFT his throne to stand before John on patmos.

You have no standing at all.

Your theory is NOT biblical.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
I believe 1 Cor 15:23 is true.
Then you must believe that 1 Cor 15:43 is also true?
it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

Of course I believe this verse. Why wouldn't I?

Does that leave any other possibility as to WHAT BODY they were raised with being they were SAINTS?

I understand it is an inconvenient truth that a first in time resurrection took place, but it is what it is.
What do you think I believe? Of course I believe there will be a single resurrection of all the saved. What is this "inconvenient truth" that you seem to think is "inconvenient" to me?

With bodies GLORIFIED OR NOT THERE WAS A RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS ON THE LAST DAY, SO THE ONE COMING ON THE LAST DAY OF THIS 'AGE', CAN NOT, IS NOT AND WILL NOT BE THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF SAINTS.

THOUGH IT WILL BE THE ONLY TIME THE ALIVE AND REMAINING' ARE CHANGED/RESURRECTED, if that helps at all.

I personally DON'T CARE what PRE TRIBs BELIEVE OR DON'T BELIEVE. I CARE ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE SEEKING TRUTH, WHO HAVE YET TO BE DECEIVED. THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN PRE TRIB are JUST HERE TO SET THE STAGE TO PUT FORTH THE GOOD WORDS OF GOD. But EVEN IF WHAT I BELIEVE is something THEY MAY FIND USEFUL, it can't change what I do BECAUSE THE WORDS OF TRUTH WILL ALWAYS WIN. WHAT IS WRITTEN WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL. THE LONGER IT GOES ON THE MORE the TRUTH IS EASILY SEEN, THE MORE CONFUSING THE OTHER SIDE IS SHOWN TO BE. THE MORE FRUITS WE all WITNESS.
One must be able to discern what 'last day' refers to. The only time "days" will end is when believers enter the eternal state, on the new earth. Other than that, there are many 'last days'. Tribulation, Millennium, etc.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you explain where you see a resurrection of believers in Rev 14?

Well then, what has been your point about the chapter? You've been talking about firstfruits, reaping and harvests seemingly in reference to a resurrection.

So, now that you are clear that ch 14 isn't about resurrection, why is it so important to you?
The 144k are in heaven during the trib. Rev 14 vividly depicts that.
Then they must have died already.

They could have been martyred first, then resurrected.
I'm not interested in your "could have been". I am interested in what the Word says.

[QUOT4]They could have been raptured.[/QUOTE]
Certainly NOT before the Second Advent, which I've proved from Scripture.

I just read what is there and accept it
They are in heaven
They are firstfruits.
Not regarding receiving their glorified bodies, which both 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52,53 describe as occurring "when He comes".

They WERE taken from among
men.
They WERE redeemed from the earth.
They are standing before the throne.
They are ethnic Jews out of 12 Jewish tribes
So what?

They ARE gathered right before the main gathering of Jews during the trib ....rev 14:14
"v.14 - I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand."

Aren't you YET aware that the sharp sickle is for drawing blood: lots and lots and lots of blood? Has nothing to do with taking believers to heaven.

Psssssst...."Jewish firstfruits"
Pssssst: so what?

Such simple reading

Very few can read what is there.

The reason?; ....doctrine.
And that nails your problem as to why you can't see the obvious.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The 144k are firstfruit Jews.
Taken from the earth , ahem, GATHERED TO HEAVEN.
You have NO verse that says this. All you have is presumption. Lots of it.

so we very factually have; firstfruit Jews, in heaven, during the trib
No winepress there at all.
All the reaping and harvesting is in relation to the sharp sickles, in order to draw lots and lots of blood.

The next gathering is MAIN HARVEST OF JEWS.
Rev 14:14
That verse speaks of a sharp sickle. So you think Jesus is going to use that weapon to harvest Jews? Please explain what kind of harvest are you thinking about.

No winepress there at all.
The Bible doesn't tell us where the winepress is. The Bible does tells us what the winepress is FOR.

THE THIRD GATHERING ( YOU KNOW, THE ONE GATHERED BY ANGELS, NOT JESUS, IS TO JUDGEMENT)

THERE IS YOUR "THIRD",gathering
..the "WINEPRESS" gathering.
You are so confused and conflate things.

I do realize you can not have any of those facts untortured because you NEED THEM CHANGED.
Go ahead and prove that I have changed anything. I actually dare you to.

You either are being obtuse or you can read what it there.
Of course I've read it, but your doctrine keeps getting in the way of discerning truth.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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The 144k are firstfruit Jews.
Taken from the earth , ahem, GATHERED TO HEAVEN.
so we very factually have; firstfruit Jews, in heaven, during the trib
No winepress there at all.
When YE HEAR PEACE AND SAFEFTY will the pressure be most unbearable?

Or when he is winning over the nations with flatteries?

Or when he does what none have done before him?

Or the 'oneness' the world is feeling, watching the deceiver perform miracles?

Or when seeing others happy and prosperous, the pressure to join in with the world be too much?

Or does the whole world worshiping him as if he were GOD, become the 'way worse than Paul' part?

Maybe it is all the deception and lying signs and wonders he will be performing for the world at that time.

These spiritual wars can be quite trying on your FAITH. It is not doubt, it will be hard to witness people 'spiritually dying' all over the world by watching turn to worship the antichrist.

When the whole world is in unison, under a one world order, under one god and his 10 kings who use all their power together for one purpose with supernatural powers how will the continual 'slaughter' of Christians look to the world?


SEALED NOT RAPTURED, SEALED IN THEIR FOREHEADS BEFORE THE TRIB
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, HOLDING THE FOUR WINDS OF THE EARTH that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have SEALED the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


BEGINNING OF THE LORDS DAY HERE ON EARTH
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice FROM HEAVEN as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders

COME BACK TO EARTH WITH US
- REMEMBER HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL NO LONGER BE SEPARATED BY THE 'SEEN VS UNSEEN' WORLD. ALL WILL HAVE BEEN CHANGED INTO SPIRITUAL BODIES***

and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever HE goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

REMEMBER THE KINGDOM, THE THRONE, THE RULE AND REIGN OF THE LORD ON THE LORDS DAY IS ON THE EARTH. THE KINGDOM WAS FIRST PROCLAIMED UPON THE EARTH, THE WORD IS BEING SPREAD ON THE EARTH, THE TEMPLE WILL BE ON THE EARTH, THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH WILL COME TO THE TEMPLE, HIS FEET TOUCH DOWN UPON THE EARTH, IT GOES ON AND ON.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN OR ANY DOCTRINE THAT TRIES TO TELL YOU HE IS NOT COMING BACK TO RULE AND REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

WHAT WILL 'PRIESTS' BE DOING FOR THE LORDS DAY? TEACHING THE WORDS OF GOD.

SATAN IS SEALED AND BOUND - BUT IS SET TO BE RELEASED AT THE END
KINDA LIKE SATAN IS IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW - TO BE CAST DOWN AT THE END
AS WE TODAY ARE BEING TOLD HE IS COMING - DURING THE LORDS DAY WE WILL BE TEACHING HE IS COMING. BABYLON IS COMING TO PROVE THEM JUST LIKE BABLYON CAME AND PROVED US.


7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of His judgment is come and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
WORSHIP GOD, DO NOT BE DECEIVED, THIS TIME IT ENDS WITH THE GREAT THRONE JUDGMENT AND THAT IS FINAL.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
SO ONCE AGAIN, SATAN WILL BE RELEASED FOR A SHORT SEASON, WILL GO ABOUT TRYING TO DECEIVE THE WORLD AGAIN

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
SAME WARNINGS WE ARE BEING GIVEN TODAY THAT WE WILL BE GIVING THAT DAY

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of HIS indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb
THIS END (FUTURE) IS MUCH DIFFERENT BECAUSE THIS ENDS WITH JUDGMENT AND ALL DECISIONS ARE FINAL. THERE WILL BE NO MORE DAYS OF TEACHING AND PREACHING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL. EVERYONE WHO MAKES IT, KNOWS IT.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
WHO IS OUR REST? THEY NEVER RECEIVE OUR REST


12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

GODS WILL IS ALL COME TO REPENTANCE. WE WORK THROUGH ALL THESE TIMES WITH GOD SO THAT IN THE END, HIS WORLD IS THE WORLD HE CREATED, WORKED AT, AND SUFFERED FOR TO BRING HIM PLEASURE. TRUE LOVE FREELY GIVEN IS A PROCESS. A LONG AND DIFFICULT PROCESS FOR 'SOTTISH' CHILDREN TO GO THROUGH. IN THE END, THERE HAS TO BE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENT. THOSE WHO RECEIVE THE 'REWARDS' DO SO MANY TIMES BECAUSE THEY RECEIVE THE 'PUNISHMENT' FROM THOSE WHO WILL BE JUDGED TO DEATH BECAUSE OF CHOOSING TO PUNISH THEIR FELLOW MAN.

THERE HAS TO BE JUSTIFICATION TO PUT SOMEONE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, THERE HAS TO BE JUSTIFICATION TO GIVE SOMEONE REWARDS. WHAT SEEMS GRIEVIOUS TO US NOW WILL ONE DAY FEEL LIKE ALMOST NOTHING. REMEMBER

FOR THE JOY SET BEFORE HIM...FOR WHAT WE WILL BE GIVEN, WHAT IS BEING ASKED IS NO BIG DEAL. AND HE ISN'T EVEN ASKING US TO GO THROUGH OR DO SOMETHING HE HIMSELF DIDN'T DO. WHY I HATE PRE TRIB. IT IS THEFT AND DECEPTION IN EVERY DIRECTION. IT IS CLEARLY SEEN FOR ALL THE LIES BY THOSE WITH EYES, WHILE THE DELUSION IS STRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE WHO ARE IN THE WRONG.


13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth
Yea, saith the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them".


TAKING ANOTHER LOOK AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS AND EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WITH THAT RETURN -
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 
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ALSO WRITTEN IN MATT 13

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


THE ELECT GATHERED FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH IN MATT 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

HEAVEN HAS COME TO EARTH. THERE IS NO LONGER AN 'UNSEEN' WORLD/REALM.
 
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You have an insurmountable problem.
Jesus leaves his throne to conquer satan.

Jesus LEFT his throne to stand before John on patmos.

You have no standing at all.

Your theory is NOT biblical.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,


ARE YOU A SERVANT? THEN WHAT IS WRITTEN IS FOR YOU, NOT FOR THOSE WHO WILL NEVER READ IT.

I KNOW YOU WISH TO PICK JUST 'HOW MUCH TRIBULATION' YOU ARE WILLING TO TAKE, BUT IF YOU ARE HERE YOU WILL BE GOING THROUGH THE TRIBULATION OF SATAN.
 
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No
Satan is prophesied to end up UNDER the feet of Jesus.
Now you are changing it to "at".

( i am strictly getting into YOUR SHOES HERE)

You have an insurmountable problem.
Jesus leaves his throne to conquer satan.

Jesus LEFT his throne to stand before John on patmos.

You have no standing at all.

Your theory is NOT biblical.
I DON'T HAVE A THEORY. AND THOSE AREN'T MY SHOES! I just have the leading of the Holy Spirit through 'WHAT IS WRITTEN' and that is what I believe.

Again, the easy proved to be false statements have really eroded whatever credibility you might have had but now you are looking...quite ignorant. You keep bringing up Patmos, as if it says what you WANT it to say, when it clearly doesn't. No different than when you mentioned Paul on the road to Damascus. It just isn't there.


NOW THIS? You must know WHAT IS WRITTEN, right? So, here we are again, you making flip comments/statements that are proved to be lies by what is written. You know I go to 'copy and paste' them? I don't understand.


1 Chronicles 28:2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building

Lamentations 2:1 How hath the LORD covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

ACTS 7:49
Heaven to ME A THRONE AND THE EARTH A FOOTSTOOL OF THE FEET OF ME. What kind of house will you build Me says Lord or what place of the rest of Me?




Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 until I place the enemies of You a footstool of the feet of You

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains


Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.



Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



5286. hupopodion ►
Strong's Concordance
hupopodion: a footstool
Original Word: ὑποπόδιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hupopodion
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-op-od'-ee-on)
Definition: a footstool
Usage: a footstool.
HELPS Word-studies
5286 hypopódion (literally, "under the feet") – properly, a footstool; (figuratively) "5286 (hypopódion) is a footstool used by a conquering king, to place his foot on the neck of the conquered" (Souter) – i.e. those under his total dominion.
 
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Enter my objections that go over your head;
Paul, if examined in your exclusive framework as an "overcomer", FAILED, due to the fact he went through mild persecution vs what the earthlings experience during the gt.

TRIBULATION IN BLACK BOLK
GREAT TRIBULATION/GODS WRATH IN RED BOLD

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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You depict pretribbers as inferior due to our weak and cowardly escape.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - AND GOD TALKS ABOUT IT


Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1169. deilos ►
Strong's Concordance
deilos: cowardly, fearful
Original Word: δειλός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: deilos
Phonetic Spelling: (di-los')
Definition: cowardly, fearful
Usage: cowardly, timid, fearful.
HELPS Word-studies
1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord.

1169 /deilós ("fearful of losses") refers to an excessive fear (dread) of "losing," causing someone to be fainthearted (cowardly) – hence, to fall short in following Christ as Lord.

[1169 /deilós is always used negatively in the NT and stands in contrast to the positive fear which can be expressed by 5401 /phóbos ("fear," see Phil 2:12).]

571. apistos
Strong's Concordance
apistos: incredible, unbelieving
Original Word: ἄπιστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: apistos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap'-is-tos)
Definition: incredible, unbelieving
Usage: unbelieving, incredulous, unchristian; sometimes subst: unbeliever.
HELPS Word-studies
571 ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful," see there) – properly, not faithful because unpersuaded, i.e. not convinced (persuaded by God). 571 /ápistos ("faithless, unpersuaded") does not always refer to the unconverted – see Jn 20:27. 571 (ápistos) describes someone who rejects or refuses God's inbirthings of faith (note the root, faith, 4102 /pístis).



Matthew 8:23 And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him.
24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!


Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?


PRE TRIBS ARE PREPARING TO ESCAPE THE 'PAUL HAD IT MILD' IN COMPARISON TRIBULATIONS COMING UPON THE EARTH.
PRE TRIBS FEAR SCREAMS OUT NO LESS THAN ABELS BLOOD DID AND THINGS SAID LIKE THAT PROVE IT.
PRE TRIBS WILL ONLY stand with God as long as it is free and easy.

Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

PRE TRIB TO A TEE. WAIT, they will take some tribulation but THEY HAVE THEIR LIMITS. WELL, THEY GET OFFENDED, THEY ONLY ENDURE FOR A TIME.

21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
PRE TRIB SAYS only until Satan comes then NO MORE CANDLESTICK, we will let those who witnessed a miracle face Satan with no armor, no wisdom, no knowledge, no hearing the words of God so no faith.

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
PRE TRIB SAY YES, THERE IS SOMETHING BEING KEPT SECRET AND YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT. IT ISN'T WRITTEN, YOU HAVE TO FIND IT AND IF YOU DON'T IT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE DENSE OR OBTUSE.

23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.




 
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What do you think I believe? Of course I believe there will be a single resurrection of all the saved. What is this "inconvenient truth" that you seem to think is "inconvenient" to me?
THIS FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD INTO GLORIFIED BODIES THAT TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS AGO.


Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


That one
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
What do you think I believe? Of course I believe there will be a single resurrection of all the saved. What is this "inconvenient truth" that you seem to think is "inconvenient" to me?
THIS FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD INTO GLORIFIED BODIES THAT TOOK PLACE 2000 YEARS AGO.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
That one
Hardly. So you actually believe that these revived believers received glorified bodies?? Then where does the Bible say they were taken up to heaven?

These believers were revived just like the widow's son by Elijah, the widow's son by Jesus, Lazarus by Jesus, those raised by various disciples, etc.

Unless there is a text in the Bible SAYING they received glorified bodies, it is a presumption that there is.

Further, I've already shown from the Bible that there is just ONE resurrection of all the saved. You've seen all the verses.

And that single resurrection is "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.

So your belief is flawed and refuted by Scripture.

1 Cor 15:23 is clear that ALL believers will be resurrected (that means receive their glorified body) "when He comes".

2,000 years ago, Jesus didn't "come". He LEFT for heaven.

No way any of them received glorified bodies. Unless Paul made a very grave error. Nah.
 
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ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - AND GOD TALKS ABOUT IT

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1169. deilos ►
Strong's Concordance
deilos: cowardly, fearful
Original Word: δειλός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: deilos
Phonetic Spelling: (di-los')
Definition: cowardly, fearful
Usage: cowardly, timid, fearful.
HELPS Word-studies
1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord.

1169 /deilós ("fearful of losses") refers to an excessive fear (dread) of "losing," causing someone to be fainthearted (cowardly) – hence, to fall short in following Christ as Lord.

[1169 /deilós is always used negatively in the NT and stands in contrast to the positive fear which can be expressed by 5401 /phóbos ("fear," see Phil 2:12).]

571. apistos
Strong's Concordance
apistos: incredible, unbelieving
Original Word: ἄπιστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: apistos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap'-is-tos)
Definition: incredible, unbelieving
Usage: unbelieving, incredulous, unchristian; sometimes subst: unbeliever.
HELPS Word-studies
571 ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful," see there) – properly, not faithful because unpersuaded, i.e. not convinced (persuaded by God). 571 /ápistos ("faithless, unpersuaded") does not always refer to the unconverted – see Jn 20:27. 571 (ápistos) describes someone who rejects or refuses God's inbirthings of faith (note the root, faith, 4102 /pístis).



Matthew 8:23 And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him.
24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!


Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?


PRE TRIBS ARE PREPARING TO ESCAPE THE 'PAUL HAD IT MILD' IN COMPARISON TRIBULATIONS COMING UPON THE EARTH.
PRE TRIBS FEAR SCREAMS OUT NO LESS THAN ABELS BLOOD DID AND THINGS SAID LIKE THAT PROVE IT.
PRE TRIBS WILL ONLY stand with God as long as it is free and easy.


Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
PRE TRIB TO A TEE. WAIT, they will take some tribulation but THEY HAVE THEIR LIMITS. WELL, THEY GET OFFENDED, THEY ONLY ENDURE FOR A TIME.

21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
PRE TRIB SAYS only until Satan comes then NO MORE CANDLESTICK, we will let those who witnessed a miracle face Satan with no armor, no wisdom, no knowledge, no hearing the words of God so no faith.

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
PRE TRIB SAY YES, THERE IS SOMETHING BEING KEPT SECRET AND YOU JUST CAN'T SEE IT. IT ISN'T WRITTEN, YOU HAVE TO FIND IT AND IF YOU DON'T IT IS BECAUSE YOU ARE DENSE OR OBTUSE.

23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Your shot gun approach to find support for your position is amusing but no meat.
There is nothing wrong with ...mea Culpa.
 
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