The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You are really trying to make 1 Cor 15:23 not mean what it so clearly says.

THAT would suffer the Christ as first through resurrection from dead light He is about to preach to both our people and to the Gentiles

This sentence doesn't make sense, AND, has no bearing on my charge to you about 1 Cor 15:23.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have a study Bible with underlining for the words of the LORD or the words of Jesus. Isa 61 has no underlining in the text, which means that the words were from Isaiah himself, and it was he who was "annointed to preach the good news".

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

None of this refutes my point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is your point here?

I still don't understand your point.

You can't have people sleeping/dead in the grave while at the same time on the mount of transfiguration.

I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.

EITHER Moses was resurrected or He is sleeping in the grave. We can't make up our own laws.

Well, you are making up a lot of stuff.

Moses went to Paradise when he died. And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.

Real simple.

btw, if any of these OT believers received a glorified body, why doesn't the Bible just say so?

And, of course, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us exactly WHY they didn't. They will get theirs "when He comes".

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
You are really trying to make 1 Cor 15:23 not mean what it so clearly says.

This sentence doesn't make sense, AND, has no bearing on my charge to you about 1 Cor 15:23.

Get out your interlinear, the closest thing we have to the original texts, and see it there. Or go to the Greek and see it there. I understand it makes LESS sense to us but when it comes to finding truth TRANSLATIONS can't be trusted.

 

[kleronomos]

I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So you DO believe in on going resurrections already. And you know Moses is living with the Lord. As are all believers who have gone to sleep.

SO WHO IS RESURRECTED ON THIS LAST DAY IF ALL BELIEVERS HAVE ALREADY GONE TO HEAVEN?

 

[Absolutely]

Right. I never said it was. Assuming that you are referring to the passage that describes dead saints coming out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection. It doesn't say they "rose to heaven" if you think so.

Matt 27:52,53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So, they "arose...and went into the holy city" (Jerusalem). Nothing about rising to heaven.

Let's not assume/presume.

Ephesians 4:
8 Therefore it is said,“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”


1Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4;
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[Absolutely]

Curious...how do you associate them with a rapture effect?

Aren't you using ...jew...in a broad sense...or are you referring to....Hebrews?
We are reminded that Jews...as a religion does not believe in Christ so hardly will they be sealed and protected.

Gods covenant people.
The Jewish race.
Jesus called them Jews

 

[kleronomos]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is your point here?

I still don't understand your point.

I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.


Well, you are making up a lot of stuff.

Moses went to Paradise when he died. And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.

Real simple.

btw, if any of these OT believers received a glorified body, why doesn't the Bible just say so?

And, of course, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us exactly WHY they didn't. They will get theirs "when He comes".

IT DOES. EVERYTHING ON GODS TIME, NOT OURS.

1Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

OF THEM THAT SLEPT. CHRIST IS THE FIRST FRUITS OF THAT GROUP FIRST.

THEN EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER, CHRIST REMAINS THE FIRST FRUITS OF THE FIRST GROUP

AND all the way DOWN TO THE LAST DAY WHEN

a BIG GROUP ALL AT ONCE ARE MADE ALIVE AKA IMMORTAL.



1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up and with what body do they come?

WHAT BODY ARE WE RAISED WITH? WHAT BODY COMES UP? WHAT BODY WILL RISE?


NEVER IS IT, WHAT SPIRIT rises and GOES OR WHAT BODY LESS SOUL/spirit rises and GOES TO HEAVEN.


NO IT IS WHAT BODY DO THEY RISE UP WITH. THE REST IS IN OUR OWN HEADS NOT IN THE WORDS OF GOD.



1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


I HAVE TO GO now. I appreciate you and your intestinal fortitude.

 

[peldom10]

You can't have people sleeping/dead in the grave while at the same time on the mount of transfiguration. EITHER Moses was resurrected or He is sleeping in the grave. We can't make up our own laws.

To you and I someone may be looked at as ...sleeping...but, in reality from the time of death to the resurrection is a split second to the one who is in the grave....no matter how earthly long.

We are reminded there is no time in the spirit world.

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is your point here?

I still don't understand your point.

I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.


Well, you are making up a lot of stuff.

Moses went to Paradise when he died. And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.

Real simple.

btw, if any of these OT believers received a glorified body, why doesn't the Bible just say so?

And, of course, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us exactly WHY they didn't. They will get theirs "when He comes".

We are reminded that God tells us in scriptures....if I remember.....14 different times;.......use common sense, don't forget common sense, apply common sense, et al.
One must be in a..... glorified body state...... in the spirit world. This body must remain on this earth and return to dirt.

 

[ewq1938]

EITHER Moses was resurrected or He is sleeping in the grave.

There is no such thing as soul sleep. Moses was not sleeping, nor was he resurrected. Remember when the disciples thought Jesus was a spirit ie: ghost? Well, he had a body that was visual so this tells us ghosts/spirit can appear to have a body even though they don't. Same for the spirits of the dead. They will appear to still have a body but they don't actually have a tangible body. This is how Moses was able to be seen long before any of the dead were resurrected. Same for why the rich man is said to talk about having a tongue etc. He didn't really have one but he felt as if he did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You are really trying to make 1 Cor 15:23 not mean what it so clearly says.

This sentence doesn't make sense, AND, has no bearing on my charge to you about 1 Cor 15:23.

Get out your interlinear, the closest thing we have to the original texts, and see it there. Or go to the Greek and see it there. I understand it makes LESS sense to us but when it comes to finding truth TRANSLATIONS can't be trusted.

Oh, those men who are trained scholars just can't seem to get it right, huh? And they have interlinears too!

What am I missing? I've looked at my interlinear. And from biblehub.com all the translations render the verse with the same basic meaning.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

So you DO believe in on going resurrections already.

No, I don't believe that. When a believer dies, they body goes in a grave. You can call that sleeping, fine. But their soul/spirit goes to heaven, just as Paul described.

2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The red and blue words are opposites. The red words describe a living believer. The blue words describe a dead believer. They are WITH the Lord.

And you know Moses is living with the Lord. As are all believers who have gone to sleep.

This is true, but NONE of them have a resurrection body. And you still haven't proven that any of them do.

SO WHO IS RESURRECTED ON THIS LAST DAY IF ALL BELIEVERS HAVE ALREADY GONE TO HEAVEN?

You just don't understand the meaning of resurrection.

It is "when He comes" that the resurrection with a glorified body occurs. 1 Cor 15:23.

Every believer receives their glorified body at the same event, which is "when He comes", at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ephesians 4:
8 Therefore it is said,“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”


1Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Peter 4;
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I can't imagine how you understand these verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is your point here?

I still don't understand your point.

I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.

Well, you are making up a lot of stuff.

Moses went to Paradise when he died. And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.

Real simple.

btw, if any of these OT believers received a glorified body, why doesn't the Bible just say so?

And, of course, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us exactly WHY they didn't. They will get theirs "when He comes".

IT DOES.

The Bible DOES NOT teach that every believer who dies receives their resurrection body then.

EVERYTHING ON GODS TIME, NOT OURS.

Of course.

1Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul is talking about when believers get their resurrrection bodies.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Yep. Christ was FIRST to get a glorified body.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order is very clear. Christ, first to receive a glorified body. Then, "they that are Christ's" (all believers) will get their "at His coming".

Couldn't be any more clear.

I HAVE TO GO now. I appreciate you and your intestinal fortitude.

Thanks. I didn't respond to every verse you quoted from 1 Cor 15. I am convinced that v.23 is clear enough for anyone to understand.

And I stand by what the verse says. It is clear that "those who belong to Him" are ALL believers from Adam forward. And it is clear that ALL believers will receive theier glorified bodies "when He comes". And He HASN'T COME YET.

So NO believer has received a resurrection body. All get theirs "when He comes".

The Bible says it. I believe it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are reminded that God tells us in scriptures....if I remember.....14 different times;.......use common sense, don't forget common sense, apply common sense, et al.

This is very good advice. And don't forget to believe what the verses plainly say. Then you can't go wrong.

One must be in a..... glorified body state...... in the spirit world.

This is an assumption; possibly a presumption. There are no verses that teach this or even suggest this.

In fact, what the Bible does teach, and very clearly, is that Jesus is the FIRST to get a glorified body, and then, "when He comes" which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him", which means every believer in the human race.

iow, all believers will get a glorified body at the SAME EVENT. Which is still future.

This body must remain on this earth and return to dirt.

YES.

 

[Absolutely]

To you and I someone may be looked at as ...sleeping...but, in reality from the time of death to the resurrection is a split second to the one who is in the grave....no matter how earthly long.

We are reminded there is no time in the spirit world.

The martyrs in heaven under the altar completely dispense with that notion

When Paul said "......but to die is gain" would then mean, under your doctrine, that he needed sleep.

 

[Absolutely]

I can't imagine how you understand these verses.

I dont need any change to them.

Some do

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.

No, I don't believe that. When a believer dies, they body goes in a grave. You can call that sleeping, fine. But their soul/spirit goes to heaven, just as Paul described.

2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The red and blue words are opposites. The red words describe a living believer. The blue words describe a dead believer. They are WITH the Lord.


This is true, but NONE of them have a resurrection body. And you still haven't proven that any of them do.


You just don't understand the meaning of resurrection.

It is "when He comes" that the resurrection with a glorified body occurs. 1 Cor 15:23.

Every believer receives their glorified body at the same event, which is "when He comes", at the Second Advent.

They receive glorified bodies at 1 thes 4.

Which is not, nor can be the coming on horses in rev 19.

Unless you like making Rev 14 disappear.

Which you can not possibly do, just reframe what is forbidden to change.

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
What is your point here?

I still don't understand your point.

I have NEVER believed the nonsense about people "sleeping in the grave". The body is in the grave. You can call the body sleeping if you want. But the souls of believers go to heaven when they die.

Well, you are making up a lot of stuff.

Moses went to Paradise when he died. And Jesus took him along with all the OT believers in Paradise to heaven.

Real simple.

btw, if any of these OT believers received a glorified body, why doesn't the Bible just say so?

And, of course, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us exactly WHY they didn't. They will get theirs "when He comes".

The Bible DOES NOT teach that every believer who dies receives their resurrection body then.


Of course.


Paul is talking about when believers get their resurrrection bodies.


Yep. Christ was FIRST to get a glorified body.


The order is very clear. Christ, first to receive a glorified body. Then, "they that are Christ's" (all believers) will get their "at His coming".

Couldn't be any more clear.


Thanks. I didn't respond to every verse you quoted from 1 Cor 15. I am convinced that v.23 is clear enough for anyone to understand.

And I stand by what the verse says. It is clear that "those who belong to Him" are ALL believers from Adam forward. And it is clear that ALL believers will receive theier glorified bodies "when He comes". And He HASN'T COME YET.

So NO believer has received a resurrection body. All get theirs "when He comes".

The Bible says it. I believe it.

You are forgetting ...no time in the spiritual world...so one cannot be sleeping in the grave...while they are there...which is ...0 time...from death until Christ return.