The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[peldom10]

I always understood "under the altar" as being in Paradise which I see as in the earth. Sleep IMO is a body that returns to the earth till the resurrection. Lord says in John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

I see an intermediate state between being in the body of flesh and blood and a spiritual body.

Only two...earthly flesh......spiritual body.

 

[peldom10]

I'm not forgetting anything. Only the physical body can be said to "sleep". Not the soul/spirit.

Paul was very clear in 2 Cor 5 about either of 2 stages:

Alive - absent from the Lord and present in the body
Dead - absent from the body and at home with the Lord

This is immediate, for those who have trouble with words.

No room for a generic use of the word...sleep...symbolically? Sleep we are familiar with. What if I said the soul is in a state of ...X....from earthly death until Christ return. what would you call it? Don't we know the soul is not with Christ until the rapture? Where is it......dead in 2001 and now.......where is it?
There is no time (of the spiritual world)...from 2001 until now...or...when Christ returns.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not forgetting anything. Only the physical body can be said to "sleep". Not the soul/spirit.

Paul was very clear in 2 Cor 5 about either of 2 stages:

Alive - absent from the Lord and present in the body
Dead - absent from the body and at home with the Lord

This is immediate

No room for a generic use of the word...sleep...symbolically?

The word is used literally and figuratively. Jesus used the word figuratively when He spoke about Lazarus being asleep.

Sleep we are familiar with. What if I said the soul is in a state of ...X....from earthly death until Christ return. what would you call it?

Fake news.

Don't we know the soul is not with Christ until the rapture?

That's not what Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6,8.

Where is it......dead in 2001 and now.......where is it?

Huh?

 

[Omegatime]

No room for a generic use of the word...sleep...symbolically? Sleep we are familiar with. What if I said the soul is in a state of ...X....from earthly death until Christ return. what would you call it? Don't we know the soul is not with Christ until the rapture? Where is it......dead in 2001 and now.......where is it?
There is no time (of the spiritual world)...from 2001 until now...or...when Christ returns.

Good day Peldom. Have you considered our calender should have started at his death, not his birth? Timing of the new covenant.

 

[kleronomos]

Examining the text carefully, there is no reason to believe that the true believers in the Church shall suffer God's wrath.

How about because ' because thou hast left thy first love'? Or because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam? Or So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Or because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols?

None of those seem to be anything 'the church' might need to 'suffer' for?

CERTAINLY, I don't believe that CHRISTIANS as individuals should suffer for 'what the body/church/bride' as a whole is doing but that is because I also believe JUDGMENT will be on HIM (the individual Christian), that overcomes, HIM that endures to the end, HIM that may be tried of the devil.

I have a question you might be able to answer. Let's say Satan hit the earth last week, healed the deadly wound, set up the image, and was performing supernatural signs and wonders, like making lightening come down form the sky, and the whole world was worshipping after him, wouldn't the churches that didn't know any better also be jumping on that train because you must admit, someone ACTUALLY performing 'miracles' who has just saved the world from massive chaos and instituted a system of prosperity for all who worship him and is the answer to everyone's prayers and claims to be 'Christ returned' , would be easy to follow, right? Do you believe 'the church' as 'an entity' would no longer be referred to as 'the church/body of Christ past Rev 3 if they did that?

 

[Omegatime]

Examining the text carefully, there is no reason to believe that the true believers in the Church shall suffer God's wrath.
On the contrary, judgement only comes upon heretics/apostates/rebels (unbelievers) who have invaded the Church assembly. Again there is a pattern of singling out INDIVIDUAL guilty parties for judgement...and them ALONE.
On these grounds, I likewise believe that the Church will not suffer God's wrath during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. They will be raptured out of it per Rev 3:10....a guarantee to the FAITHFUL CHURCH.

Rev 2:12-17
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there (singling out the apostates/heretics) those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those (apostates/heretics) who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against ***them***(not believers) with the sword of My mouth.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’ (guarantee of salvation to faithful believers)

Rev 2:18-26
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow***that*** (apostate/heretic) woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave ***her*** time to repent of ***her*** sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast ***her*** into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill ***her*** children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

“Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev 3:3-5
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you ***will not*** watch (rebels/heretics/apostates), I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments (faithful believers); and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

CV5--we dont agree with much but for your statement: Examining the text carefully, there is no reason to believe that the true believers in the Church shall suffer God's wrath.

We agree-----kudos

 

[cv5]

How about because ' because thou hast left thy first love'? Or because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam? Or So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Or because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols?

None of those seem to be anything 'the church' might need to 'suffer' for?

CERTAINLY, I don't believe that CHRISTIANS as individuals should suffer for 'what the body/church/bride' as a whole is doing but that is because I also believe JUDGMENT will be on HIM (the individual Christian), that overcomes, HIM that endures to the end, HIM that may be tried of the devil.

I have a question you might be able to answer. Let's say Satan hit the earth last week, healed the deadly wound, set up the image, and was performing supernatural signs and wonders, like making lightening come down form the sky, and the whole world was worshipping after him, wouldn't the churches that didn't know any better also be jumping on that train because you must admit, someone ACTUALLY performing 'miracles' who has just saved the world from massive chaos and instituted a system of prosperity for all who worship him and is the answer to everyone's prayers and claims to be 'Christ returned' , would be easy to follow, right? Do you believe 'the church' as 'an entity' would no longer be referred to as 'the church/body of Christ past Rev 3 if they did that?

You missed my point again. And again and again and again.

There is absolutely no doubt that in text of the seven letters to seven Churches that faithful believers are guaranteed salvation and robes and thrones and crowns and new name everything else.

 

[Absolutely]

Nope doesn’t sound like it

What is his answer then when he is shown the dead in Christ rise first? ( 1 thes4)
Because postribbers have the dead in christ rising at the white horses at that particular coming from heaven.

That puts the dead in christ rising after the gathering of Jews in rev 14, which is way before the coming on white horses.

(Running man fail)

 

[Absolutely]

You are not addressing why I am wrong. Tell me?.

I dont know
Maybe we agree.

 

[riverhooks]

What is his answer then when he is shown the dead in Christ rise first? ( 1 thes4)
Because postribbers have the dead in christ rising at the white horses at that particular coming from heaven.

That puts the dead in christ rising after the gathering of Jews in rev 14, which is way before the coming on white horses.

(Running man fail)

What is his answer then when he is shown the dead in Christ rise first? ( 1 thes4)
Because postribbers have the dead in christ rising at the white horses at that particular coming from heaven.

That puts the dead in christ rising after the gathering of Jews in rev 14, which is way before the coming on white horses.

(Running man fail)

Jesus returns on The Last Day as Mentioned in the Gospel of John. The first resurrection happens , Dead in Christ rise first It is the Second Coming of Christ Living Believers are caught up with those raised from the dead to meet the Lord in the air as far as timing it is the Last Day . The spirits of just men made perfect I assume those in Heaven will receive their glorified Bodies while the living believers are translated and are changed in an instant. I'll leave the micro details to the theologians

 

[Absolutely]

Instead of making stupid and inaccurate claims, just explain HOW you think ch 14 doesn't fit my doctrine.

Sorry
Cant help you.

By now, if you haven't clicked on 50 attempts, it is a waste of my valuable time.

Believe what ever suits you.

 

[riverhooks]

Jesus returns on The Last Day as Mentioned in the Gospel of John. The first resurrection happens , Dead in Christ rise first It is the Second Coming of Christ Living Believers are caught up with those raised from the dead to meet the Lord in the air as far as timing it is the Last Day . The spirits of just men made perfect I assume those in Heaven will receive their glorified Bodies while the living believers are translated and are changed in an instant. I'll leave the micro details to the theologians

I never put a white horse timing in my faith.

 

[riverhooks]

Where's the beef ? I've been at another blog. How may I assist you ? LOL

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus returns on The Last Day as Mentioned in the Gospel of John. The first resurrection happens , Dead in Christ rise first It is the Second Coming of Christ Living Believers are caught up with those raised from the dead to meet the Lord in the air as far as timing it is the Last Day . The spirits of just men made perfect I assume those in Heaven will receive their glorified Bodies while the living believers are translated and are changed in an instant. I'll leave the micro details to the theologians

1) there are 2 "Comings" in mat 24

2) your model places the dead in Christ rising at the white horses coming to earth.
That makes 1 thes 4 a lie.
You have the dead in christ of 1thes4 rising after the gathering of Rev 14....DURING THE GT.

No way to reconcile that one.
Postribbers never have in 40 years

They hate talking about it.

 

[riverhooks]

I don’t . I like to talk about the Bible . Most of the time I am referring to Scripture that I assume is received as the final authority but is often usurped . First Absolutely ( Rocky ) “ Absolutely”. Speaking of models I did not know that I had one. So please let me get back to you on that one. I was in my twenties in the seventies and now I am in my seventies in the twenties been in another blog and pretty tired just about ready to hit it . Just stopped by to see if there were any notifications . I’ll be back tomorrow and we can see what the scriptures say. Meanwhile can you clarify what you are saying , I really have no idea what you are saying because it is apparantly what I believe and I know that what I believe is scriptural so when discuss it let’s be clear I am a post-tribber. Are you a pre-tribber? Let me know . Look forward to sharing what the Bible says , anyway I read Chuck Smiths ( Calvary Chapel / pretribulationist) book on the rapture. I also have read a post tribulationist book on the same subject both camps use the same scriptures. Perhaps we can shed some light on the subject.

 

[riverhooks]

I don’t . I like to talk about the Bible . Most of the time I am referring to Scripture that I assume is received as the final authority but is often usurped . First Absolutely ( Rocky ) “ Absolutely”. Speaking of models I did not know that I had one. So please let me get back to you on that one. I was in my twenties in the seventies and now I am in my seventies in the twenties been in another blog and pretty tired just about ready to hit it . Just stopped by to see if there were any notifications . I’ll be back tomorrow and we can see what the scriptures say. Meanwhile can you clarify what you are saying , I really have no idea what you are saying because it is apparantly what I believe and I know that what I believe is scriptural so when discuss it let’s be clear I am a post-tribber. Are you a pre-tribber? Let me know . Look forward to sharing what the Bible says , anyway I read Chuck Smiths ( Calvary Chapel / pretribulationist) book on the rapture. I also have read a post tribulationist book on the same subject both camps use the same scriptures. Perhaps we can shed some light on the subject.

PLEASE EXPOUND ON WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO AVOID CONFUSION
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY 2 COMINGS IN MATTHEW 24?
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY A MODEL THAT PLACES THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISING AT THE WHITE HORSES COMING TO EARTH THAT MAKES 1 Thessalonians 4 A lie ?
What do you mean that I have the dead in Christ rising after the gathering of Rev 14…during the GT. ?
Do you believe the Bible says THE GREAT TRIBULATION . I don’t see it in the authorized version . I see a reference to great tribulation. Anyway clarity before attempting to rightly divide the word as to what we are talking about will avoid a lot of unnecessary rabbit trails and frankly a lot of work. You may as well just state your views on the event before we agree or disagree on the context of scripture ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do you believe the Bible says THE GREAT TRIBULATION . I don’t see it in the authorized version . I see a reference to great tribulation.

[this is not to say that I agree with many of "Abs" views, because he and I differ on a number of points...]



... I just wanted to point out that the interlinears show the definite article ('the') with this phrase, as it is used in Revelation 7:14 (and many of us believe this is speaking of the SAME time-frame that Matthew 24:21 also speaks to):

-- Revelation 7:14 [interlinear example] "THE great tribulation" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm



... which speaks specifically (and only) of the SECOND HALF of the future "7 years" (leading up to Christ's "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19)

 

[riverhooks]

[this is not to say that I agree with many of "Abs" views, because he and I differ on a number of points...]



... I just wanted to point out that the interlinears show the definite article ('the') with this phrase, as it is used in Revelation 7:14 (and many of us believe this is speaking of the SAME time-frame that Matthew 24:21 also speaks to):

-- Revelation 7:14 [interlinear example] "THE great tribulation" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm



... which speaks specifically (and only) of the SECOND HALF of the future "7 years" (leading up to Christ's "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19)

I heard of the secret silent rapture , story the dispensational stuff. This will last for this long and so forth. Just want Jesus Christ a.k.a. King of Kings and Lord of Lords my savior to be a better Christian than I have been . I’ve known a personal relationship with The Lord for awhile. I can’t say the Spirit of God is too impressed with most of ways His Word is being used . I only use the KJV I started with it I’ll finish with it . My story is His story more of a one on one. Life and that more abundantly . Seen it all , heard it all pretty much. Jesus Christ the Same Yesterday Today and Forever. I know the Lovingkindness of the Lord. That’s all that matters. Lest I be corrupted by theology. I use the KJV thee withers thithers and all the version The Apostle Paul used, kidding kidding it’s a joke. I’ll leave it up to the theologians to delve into the things where they are the weakest and yet appear more knowledgeable . I just think prayer is where the action is . Starting in 1974 during the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the Jesus People days. Lived through those times . Took years but finally all my sibs 3 sisters and 1 brother came to the Lord , both parents as well , my dad on his death bed. I have seen a lot of majoring in the minors on this site.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Nice to meet you.

Hope to see you around the boards.

Have a good evening.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Instead of making stupid and inaccurate claims, just explain HOW you think ch 14 doesn't fit my doctrine.

Sorry
Cant help you.

Well, thank you for the honesty.

By now, if you haven't clicked on 50 attempts, it is a waste of my valuable time.

No, I think your first statement is all that was necessary. You can't help because you can't show what you keep claiming from Rev 14.

Believe what ever suits you.

The Bible suits me very well. And I intend to stick with the Bible, and not "claimers" about what the Bible says.