The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

There is no rapture at the second coming on the white horses.

There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.

The rapture is at 1 thes 4

At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.

Pretrib rapture.

There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

""""I don’t believe many of you have the mind to search the scriptures to see if these things be so. ( pretribulationalism) The church is raptured""""
Post the verses you claim support you view.
You have only been here a short while.
You will find out real quick if your views can stand testing against the word.
You seem to take the debate too personal.
Skip all that and go "concept" vs "concept"

Nonsense, Abs. He was clear about using the "Berean study method", which is to "search the Scriptures daily to see if what Abs said was true".

It is your words that cannot stand testing against the Word. Because you don't have any verses showing Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven.

All you have is a parable, and lots and lots of presumptions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

heres the deal.
Postrib rapture has to be "0ne coming". No room for a second.

Because the Bible says NOTHING about ANY kind of trip to heaven with Jesus leading glorified believers. Zero evidence for 'rapture'.

If the bible shows 2, it is game over....big time.

If you have ANY verses that show Jesus leading glorified believers to heaven, then what are you waiting for?

Please show them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Uh no.
1st resurrection is ONLY the dead in Christ

Second is AFTER THE MIL.

And you have absolutely NO evidence for your supposed 2 resurrections of the saved.

Acts 24:15 trounces your theories. There is ONE for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.

"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

How you keep getting multiple resurrections from the Bible when the Bible ALWAYS refers to resurrerction in the SINGULAR, beats me.

It appears that you are just making up more stuff.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do you explain the elect resurrected and walking the streets at Jesus resurrection?

How do you prove your presumption that they were walking in new glorified bodies? They were raised from the dead. That is quite different than being "raised in glory", which is a specific reference to receiving a glorified body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.

In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.

You keep talking 'rapture' but you STILL HAVEN'T shown ANY Scripture that describes your presumption about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Actually acts one, was a local event ,with only a few seeing him.
In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)

He went up (to Heaven) FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES

["likewise"/"IN LIKE MANNER" (as they SAW Him traveling INTO HEAVEN, Acts 1)... He will descend TO the mount of Olives, as in Zech14:4 at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH]

IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.
In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.

In the RAPTURE, it is HE who will DESCEND TO (the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR* location);
whereas WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY *ONLY*) who will be SNATCHED UP TO that location (not "TO the mount of Olives")...

...see the difference??










[besides this ^ ... BETWEEN His "I ASCEND [active]" (John 20:17) ON "FIRSTFRUIT" His Resurrection Day (Lev23:10-12)... and His LATER *VISIBLE* ascension in Acts 1... there was a PERIOD of "FORTY DAYS"... see what I mean??]

 

[Absolutely]

He went up (to Heaven) FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES

["likewise"/"IN LIKE MANNER" (as they SAW Him traveling INTO HEAVEN, Acts 1)... He will descend TO the mount of Olives, as in Zech14:4 at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH]


In the RAPTURE, it is HE who will DESCEND TO (the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR* location);
whereas WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY *ONLY*) who will be SNATCHED UP TO that location (not "TO the mount of Olives")...

...see the difference??










[besides this ^ ... BETWEEN His "I ASCEND [active]" (John 20:17) ON "FIRSTFRUIT" His Resurrection Day (Lev23:10-12)... and His LATER *VISIBLE* ascension in Acts 1... there was a PERIOD of "FORTY DAYS"... see what I mean??]

No sir.
It says he will return in LIKE MANNER.

It says nothing at all, ZERO, about returning to the mount of olives.

Manner, as in solo, with no horses, or war attitude, no AC, NO HALFWAY DESTROYED PLANET.

Besides that there are no saints left to return to at the timing you suggest.

You are actually denying a pretrib rapture because "like manner" has his remnant involved on earth at his return.
**AN OBSERVATION AT LIFTOFF**;
"The space shuttle you see taking off will return in like manner"

Lets apply your template, shall we?
You have the shuttle returning with russian and chinese shuttles to destroy an army at cape kennedy.
And you say ;
" see... it came back exactly like it left. In fact I knew those other nations were coming with it with weapons to destroy an army. To no other location but cape kennedy....That is what "like manner" means""

You completely changed what it says.

What really happened?
It did come back flying as it left but to a DIFFERENT location, TO A DIFFERENT GROUP.

You know, kinda like the rapture maybe?

MAYBE REREAD IT???;
Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

That is anti postrib setting big time.
Nothing there at all to make that a postrib setting with billions of riders and warring an enemy with weapons.

 

[Absolutely]

As I've explained in the past, the text explicitly TELLS us WHERE they went, and I believe this is set in contradistinction to that of WHERE Christ Himself went after His resurrection ON FIRSTFRUIT, which He TOLD Mary Magdalene (John 20:17 "I ASCEND")... and in fulfillment OF Lev23:10-12 "FIRSTFRUIT" ("wave THE SHEAF"... and "AN HE LAMB without blemish" [one]);

I've said I believe they (the "many" who rose, in Matt27) are a SAMPLING (and a snapshot) of those OT saints who WILL be "resurrected ['to stand again' (on the earth)]" at His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age.
They were NOT taken up to Heaven with Christ when He did His "I ASCEND [active]" that very day of His resurrection / ON FIRSTFRUIT Lev23:10-12 (His FIRST of TWO ascensions; the latter one being in Acts 1 "VISIBLY" [which is how He will likewise RETURN *to the earth* / what we commonly call His Second Coming (Rev19--VISIBLY... when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him)]); Instead, they went into the city and were seen by many... (all earthly-located, as will be the "resurrection" at the END of the Trib yrs!! Job19:25-27; Dan12:13; Jn11:24... and Rev20:4b)

no
There is nothing about a resurrection anywhere, in anything you posted, happening at the coming on white horses.

Nor is there anything in luke about those ,resurrected with Jesus, elect , NOT going to heaven

They were seen in Jerusalem where they went BEFORE ASCENDING to heaven.

It clearly says of paradise ,that Jesus preached to those in prison and TOOK CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE.

Paradise was moved to heaven with it's inhabitants

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Besides that there are no saints left to return to at the timing you suggest.

I totally disagree with your idea that ALL Trib saints are killed / martyred / beheaded in the Trib yrs (leaving ZERO "saints" to ENTER the MK age [the ONLY ones who DO ENTER IT] in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children / multiplying-actively-filling the whole earth, as in the days of Noah [comp. Gen9:1 with Dan2:35c])...

...which idea of yours completely DISAGREES with what both
Daniel 12:12 says, "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days" (parallel about 8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to THIS SAME ISSUE--mortal "saints" [i.e. the "righteous"] ENTERING the earthly MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19)
and
with what [......... sorry, I'm being suddenly called away from my desk......BBL!!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

6 Will Christs Return be in Two Stages?

NO.

Biblically speaking, the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) is used to speak of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age):

--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom... "WITH [/UNIONed-WITH G4862]" His Bride/Wife [singular] returning WITH Him)... THEN the MEAL [G347; spoken of also in Matt8:11 and its parallel; aka the EARTHLY MK age, aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]" (etc)]--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel);

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" (when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over ten CITIES"... "be thou likewise over five CITIES"--note: cities are on the earth), and its parallel passages




[none of these passages speak of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point in time]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and
with what [......... sorry, I'm being suddenly called away from my desk......BBL!!]

well, I knew it would happen! my "interruption" also made my second thought completely escape me (for now)... hoping it'll come to me... lol

my apologies! (will ponder what it is I was going to put...)

 

[RizenPhoenix]

I think we all should just relax. I am pretty sure it will happen when your deep asleep in your bed. Time will stop for all those who will be leaving. If your found in the daytime you will be asleep in your bed, dead, remember the flesh does not enter Heaven only the Spirit inside you. Makes sense to me instead of airplanes and car crashing all around us!

 

[riverhooks]

I will have to assume you haven't read any of my posts.


As a student of the Bible fromthe Berean method of study, this is what I have found and shared for pages and pages on this thread.

1. There is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE resurrection of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

2. All believers will receive their glorified bodies at the single resurrection of the saved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (all believers belong to Him, because He has saved them)

3. The single resurrection of the saved will occur "when He comes" which is a reference to the Second Advent.
1 Cor 15:23
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Rev 20:4,5
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Red words refer to believing martyrs from the Tribulation.
Blue words refer to the single resurrection, which obviously will occur when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent. Since there is only one, John wasn't motivated to mention all the other previously dead saints, nor the living ones. But ALL will "reign with him".


Could you provide the verses that have convinced you of this? And what is the time frame for 'rapture' and 2nd Coming?



Exactly.

Their Magna Carta scripture of their “pretribulation” rapture. 4 Thessalonians 13-18 . This is the Second Coming of Christ The Living believers are caught up to meet The Lord in the air but not preceding the dead in Christ who “rise first”. 1 Cor 15:23 I am not dogmatic about the timing other than . What you have written sounds fine to me I am not going to split hairs on the timing of the resurrection of those already in hell and standing before the Great White throne judgement. I believe the first resurrection occurs at The second coming of Christ.

 

[riverhooks]

Actually acts one, was a local event ,with only a few seeing him.

In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)
IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.

In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.

Every Eye will see him , Not, Every eye will seem except those millions that are sleeping. Don’t make me come over there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nor is there anything in luke about those ,resurrected with Jesus, elect , NOT going to heaven

Actually, there is NOTHING in the ENTIRE BIBLE about ANYONE with a glorified body going to heaven AT ANY TIME.

They were seen in Jerusalem where they went BEFORE ASCENDING to heaven.

And what verses tell us that those who came out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection went with Him?? Or just more presumption.

It clearly says of paradise ,that Jesus preached to those in prison and TOOK CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE.

Right. Jesus took all the OT believers who were residing in Paradise, to heaven. There is NOTHING about them receiving glorified bodies.

Paradise was moved to heaven with it's inhabitants

Right. And nothing was said about having glorified bodies.

All saved people ("those who belong to Him) will receive their glorified bodies at the same event, "when He comes".

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
1 Cor 15:52-53
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

All this occurs at the same event, again, as 1 Cor 15:23 SAYS plainly.

1 Thess 4 says the same thing.
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
So those who came out of their graves weren't resurrected with glorified bodies.

One resurrection, with glorified bodies. Just one. And Rev 20:5 tells us the resurrection of trib martyrs is the FIRST one, of 2. The other one being for all the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

So you see, Abs, I provide verses that clearly support what I post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Their Magna Carta scripture of their “pretribulation” rapture. 4 Thessalonians 13-18 . This is the Second Coming of Christ The Living believers are caught up to meet The Lord in the air but not preceding the dead in Christ who “rise first”. 1 Cor 15:23 I am not dogmatic about the timing other than . What you have written sounds fine to me I am not going to split hairs on the timing of the resurrection of those already in hell and standing before the Great White throne judgement. I believe the first resurrection occurs at The second coming of Christ.

Correct. Since Acts 24:15 mentions one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved, and Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of Trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection, and the GWT judgment will adjourn at the end of the Millennium, it seems logical that the second resurrection will be of the unsaved, being called to that judgment.

I used to think the term "second death" referred to spiritual death in the LoF. But recently, with all the emphasis on resurrection, I've come to the conclusion that all unbelievers will be resurrected in their old mortal bodies to face the Judge. And when they are cast into the LoF, their bodies WILL DIE again. Not that their souls will.

So I now believe that the "second death" is literally a second physical death. They have been spiritually dead for all or their lives already.

So they can't really die spiritually a second time. I had some reservations about that idea until it occurred to me that it would be their physical bodies that God is fully capable of reconstituting again, just for that purpose.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely said:
Actually acts one, was a local event ,with only a few seeing him.

In fact it is opposite of the rev 19 return as is declared by the angels " ...this same Jesus will return in "LIKE MANNER", (as in no white horses or warrior attitude)
IOW THE RAPTURE...SOLO with no accompanying billion man army.

In the rapture it is NOT "every eye shall see him" as many millions will be sleeping.

Every Eye will see him , Not, Every eye will seem except those millions that are sleeping.

Excellent correction!

Don’t make me come over there.

 

[peldom10]

Because the pretribulationist version is the biggest kidnapping in History will take place and everyone will wonder where the believers went airplanes will fall from the sky their pilots raptured , cars will run over pedestrians their drivers raptured . These are the scenarios of pretribulationist rapture books. I for one. The Blessed Hope is not the pretribulationist rapture. It is a false teaching look to scripture The Blessed hope is the Lords return . I still haven’t found someone that is a pretribulationist speak any scripture to support such an event . Bible is clear . Clear the catching up of the living believers to meet the Lord in the air is at the first resurrection. At the Second Coming of Christ not the Third. Read your Bible Amigo.

Wrong...just wrong.

 

[peldom10]

There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.


At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.


There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

You need a new Bible...may I ship you one?

Geesscchh!