The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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ewq1938

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You can stay begin if you wish, and it seems that is the choice you have made. You COULD believe God for His escape plan, but you want to face the Antichrist. So be it.

Everyone is going to be on the Earth during the entire Great Tribulation. A person will either be worshiping the antichrist or be of those who refuse to do so. Believing in a doctrine that wants to take part in the Apostasia is the wrong doctrine to hold.
 

justbyfaith

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Now we’re getting somewhere. Appeasement of wrath I agree with, took upon Himself the wrath of God is absent from scriptures. The message of the gospel is that God sent Jesus because He loved the world, not because He wanted to appease His wrath against humanity.

Kindly show me any verses that say God poured His wrath out on Jesus, or that Jesus absorbed God’s wrath, or something of that nature and I’ll believe it.
Romans 3:25.
 
R

RichMan

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"some kind of special class of people are raptured"

No, you're wrong about that......evidently you've got bad information. All of the Church every single solitary one of them are raptured without exception. Nobody gets left behind that is a myth. There are no distinctions of class whatsoever. At the pre-trib rapture event there are no Christian believers left on planet earth.

You must understand that AFTER the rapture there are people on earth who WILL COME to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. These are the tribulation Saints. They are distinct from the Church......because they are not the Bride of Christ! They are elect of God yes, but GUESTS at the wedding supper. Not the Bride.

The Church is ONE (BODY) and done.......starts at Pentecost ends at the PRE-TRIB rapture.
What Scripture proves your statement that the tribulation saints are saved after the rapture?
 

ewq1938

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What Scripture proves your statement that the tribulation saints are saved after the rapture?

Especially given the fact that the 144k are Christians and have the seal of God before the Great Tribulation starts so they enter as Christians. This would also be true of the two witnesses. There is no evidence at all that anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. The church is clearly in the Great Tribulation making pre-trib a false doctrine.
 

justbyfaith

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Jesus would not tell us to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture (as He did in Luke 21:36) and then answer that prayer with a "no" to the one who sincerely prayed it.

See 1 John 5:14-15, Mark 11:22-24.
 

Rondonmon

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What Scripture proves your statement that the tribulation saints are saved after the rapture?
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, these are Judged AFTER Jesus' return to earth with the Church as Rev. 19 shows, which happens just before Armageddon, which is the Marriage Feast.

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are the Martyrs shown later on in Rev. 20:4 Jesus specifically tells them they must wait until all of their brothers were killed in like manner as they were, by the Anti-Christ.

No one from the 70th week Martyrs goes to Heaven, they are seen in Rev. 20:4 as being raised and judged after Jesus' Second Coming. Jesus foretold that they would not be raised until after all of the brothers had been killed in like manner, or until the Anti-Christs 42 month rule was fulfilled.

Thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are NOT from the 70th week tribulation, but the Raptured Church from the great church age tribulation.

The Remnant from Rev. 12:17 CAN NOT be Jews, its the Remnant Church from the SEED of Jesus.
 

ewq1938

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Jesus would not tell us to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

No we aren't told to pray for a pre-trib rapture in Luke 21:36.


In Matthew 24 he placed gathering of saints (which is rapture) as happening after the GT has ended so Luke 21:36 is not addressing the rapture.


1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.


One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual escape.


What the verse is telling us is that people will survive the great tribulation by escaping all the deception and Apostasy and will be able to stand before Christ on the day his second coming, the one and only coming which is loud and visible to whole world. That is pure post-trib.


bear it:

G5297
ὑποφέρω
hupopherō
hoop-of-er'-o
From G5259 and G5342; to bear from underneath, that is, (figuratively) to undergo hardship: - bear, endure.
Total KJV occurrences: 3

To escape by bearing it in this context isn't to be raptured away but to be able to bear what is going to come, to undergo hardship. Christians survive the great tribulation are those who escaped in a non-physical sense, being able to bear the tribulations satan brings upon church in that time period. Jesus was also tempted by the devil and Christ escaped those temptations by being spiritually strong and able to undergo the hardship.
 
Dec 29, 2021
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Jesus would not tell us to pray for a pre-tribulation rapture (as He did in Luke 21:36) and then answer that prayer with a "no" to the one who sincerely prayed it.

See 1 John 5:14-15, Mark 11:22-24.
Like I said, English must not be Your First Language.

Or, you are Deliberating refusing to View Luke 21:36 as the Answer to the Verse before it, Luke 21:35?

35 like a snare; for it shall come upon all that dwell on the face of all the land.

36 But watch at every time, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of man.

Verse 36 is talking about a Snare.

Paul calls it: Delusion
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



You, Justbyfaith, are either purposefully Twisting Scripture, or You do not completely understand English!
 
Dec 4, 2021
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We as people have made up the pre, mid, and post tribulation in our pride wanting to have all the answers and make sense of the mysteries of God when these are only revealed to the close followers such as the disciples, the ones predestined to have ears to hear What the spirit of the Lord says. Like when Jesus said who do you say that I am Peter said why are you are the son of God and Jesus said this has been revealed to you by my Father in Heaven not by man and same thing with this topic these mysteries from revelation Are revealed by the Holy Spirit to those in the covenant with Jesus. Those that will be reigning in the Kingdom ok Heaven not all can rule many are called but few chosen. These Will be given an understanding of the kingdom of God which includes the rapture but I do not call it the rapture as the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that it is the resurrection. In the Bible it’s spoken of as the end of the age; the last day; the day of the Lord it will be the first ressurection dead and alive chosen to rule with Christ.
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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I wouldn't mind being raptured! Who wouldn't? Question is what exactly are you
supposed to do to qualify? There are many books supporting the idea and arguing
about when it is supposed to happen but none of them spell this out. It seems to me
that it consists of some kind of divine lottery. I suppose I will have to wait and see if
I have a winning card or not.
Hi tanakh,

We need to be listening to the Holy Spirit as He works in our life, our attitudes and behaviour and -

`To those who EAGERLY WAIT for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.` (Heb. 9: 28)
 

Marilyn

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Not only that, but I've studied the Word about the resurrection and rapture, since they both occur at the same event.

The Bible teaches very clearly that there will be just one resurrection for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Singular.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that? Greek is singular.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved. The Greek is singular.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. “when He comes” is in the singular.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Red = Second Advent

Blue = 'rapture'


So, what happens at "the rapture"? Believers still alive when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent, will be "caught up" to be together with all the dead saints from heaven who will accompany King Jesus back to earth. All will receive their glorified bodies, and will then be part of the Millennial kingdom on earth. So no "raptured" believer will ever go up to heaven.
Resurrection. There are two types - One to life and one to condemnation.

`...all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the RESURRECTION OF LIFE, and those who have done evil, to the RESURRECTION OF CONDEMNATION. ` (John. 5: 28 & 29)

And since the Body of Christ IS NOT in the grave but waiting in the General Assembly, (third heaven, Heb. 12: 23) then we are not involved in those resurrections. Instead we are changed - `put on incorruption...and immortality.` (1 Cor. 15: 52 & 53)

And then we will go to our eternal setting in the third heaven with Christ on His own throne - far above all. (Rev. 3: 21, Eph. 1: 21)
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, these are Judged AFTER Jesus' return to earth with the Church as Rev. 19 shows, which happens just before Armageddon, which is the Marriage Feast.

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are the Martyrs shown later on in Rev. 20:4 Jesus specifically tells them they must wait until all of their brothers were killed in like manner as they were, by the Anti-Christ.

No one from the 70th week Martyrs goes to Heaven, they are seen in Rev. 20:4 as being raised and judged after Jesus' Second Coming. Jesus foretold that they would not be raised until after all of the brothers had been killed in like manner, or until the Anti-Christs 42 month rule was fulfilled.

Thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are NOT from the 70th week tribulation, but the Raptured Church from the great church age tribulation.

The Remnant from Rev. 12:17 CAN NOT be Jews, its the Remnant Church from the SEED of Jesus.
Those verses not say Christian that in great tribulation is because they are accept Jesus during the tribulation
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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Like I said, English must not be Your First Language.

Or, you are Deliberating refusing to View Luke 21:36 as the Answer to the Verse before it, Luke 21:35?

35 like a snare; for it shall come upon all that dwell on the face of all the land.

36 But watch at every time, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of man.

Verse 36 is talking about a Snare.

Paul calls it: Delusion
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:



You, Justbyfaith, are either purposefully Twisting Scripture, or You do not completely understand English!
The Great Tribulation will come upon the whole world as a snare.

In Luke 21:36, we are told to pray that we might escape that snare and I believe that this means escaping the Great Trib.
 

justbyfaith

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Now in 1 Corinthians 10:13, we become able to bear the temptation because God provides a way to escape that temptation and to get away from whatever is tempting us. Once the temptation is out of the way, we still have to bear it because we are tempted to go back and be ensnared by whatever was tempting us after that we had escaped.

But no, 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not teach us that being able to bear something is the same thing as escaping it; neither is it teaching us that escaping something = merely being able to bear the thing that you are escaping.

That kind of teaching completely changes the meaning of the word "escape" and nullifies the word so that it does not mean what it says.
 

justbyfaith

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The Great Tribulation will come upon the whole world as a snare (Ecclesiastes 9:12).

In Luke 21:36, we are told to pray that we might escape that snare and I believe that this means escaping the Great Trib.
 

ewq1938

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The Great Tribulation will come upon the whole world as a snare.

In Luke 21:36, we are told to pray that we might escape that snare and I believe that this means escaping the Great Trib.

It's about not getting caught in the snare while still being here. It is not escaping to heaven. The Great Tribulation is meant for the church. That is the purpose of the Great Tribulation. Did Christ escape the cross or did he escape from sinning? No Christians have been physically removed to save them from their fates. The church will face Great Tribulation and many will be overcome and die. That's a scriptural fact. They don't escape from being killed. Even the two prophets of Revelation 11 are raptured AFTER they were killed not raptured before they were killed.
 

justbyfaith

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The Great Tribulation is meant for the church. That is the purpose of the Great Tribulation.
Why hasn't the Great Tribulation been happening during the entire church age then?
 

ewq1938

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But no, 1 Corinthians 10:13 does not teach us that being able to bear something is the same thing as escaping it; neither is it teaching us that escaping something = merely being able to bear the thing that you are escaping.

That is exactly what the verse plainly tells us. It's a different type of escape. The snare is the deception of a false God. The church will escape that while being persecuted right here on the Earth. Over and over it has happened like this. Never was the rapture used to evade being killed.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
 

ewq1938

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Why hasn't the Great Tribulation been happening during the entire church age then?
Because Christ said it was a shortened period of time. We are told it will be 42 months in Revelation. General tribulation has always existed but the Great Tribulation Christ spoke of in the Olivet Discourse is a specific time of tribulation that will be greater (worse) than any other time in history. It hasn't started yet but when someone claims to be god, rules the world and can perform miracles, then we will know the Great Tribulation has started.
 
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