The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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R

RichMan

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I was only commenting on the manner in which you wrote.
Maybe I do not always use the right words or come across wrong.
Do not mean to seem like a know it all. None of us are that smart.

Got to go. Chores are waiting.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". So no one has a "choice" as you assume.

The Bible doesn't teach that. So you must have made that up.


Why would there be an escape plan, given that for over 2,000 years, the church has suffered severe persecution all over the world?
We should not form a doctrine from an isolated verse. One verse does hint that it will be those who are "In Christ" that are raised, or those that belong to him. But another verse may well modify that to say, of those that belong to him, I am only going to appear to those who are looking for me, expecting My coming. If this is true, and it is, will those caught up belong to Him? Of course, they will.

Why would God write of an escape plan if none existed? Since He did write of it, of course, it does exist. It has nothing to do with the church for the past 2000 years.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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You really do not understand Scripture do you. It is not up to you to put your own spin on Scripture to prove your belief.
byebye....
 

cv5

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Are the 144000 Jewish believers left behind in the tribulation part of the body of Christ or not?
How many bodies are there? When he returns Jesus separates people into two groups ie Sheep and Goats. The Sheep appear to be yet another body! The question Paul asks is a good one
'Is Christ Divided?' According to some the answer appears to be yes
Something else to think about:
It can be very very difficult to ascertain to whom exactly Christ is addressing when He is making prophetic statements or declaring parables etc.

Far too many people mix up the audience and I come to the wrong conclusions. A lot of times Jesus is addressing ONLY His brethren the Israelites.....post rapture.

IMO....This is the most difficult Bible study there is. For me it's certainly a work in progress let me tell you......;)

On the other hand parsing out the Church is pretty easy actually. Exceedingly easy in the book of Revelation that's for sure.
 

cv5

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If Jesus indeed was sacrificed as a substitute for man then that should be your STARTING PLACE.

I totally understand your need for clinical definitions that suit you.

But to be put to death for another and escape the actual wrath of that punishment ( no beating, no bruising, no crushing, no nails, no cross and no death) is one thing, but then to just assume there was no substitute of Gods wrath is taking your clinical definitions into heresy.
He became a curse.
He took upon him the sin of the world.
He experienced Gods rejection.
The JUDGEMENT OF THE WORLD , GODS WRATH, WAS UPON HIM.

IF you leave out substitute then you corrupt Jesus mission.

IOW, You now need to take "wrath" from judgement.
In your new limited "understanding" that you are trying to reframe Jesus mission, you have a need for wrath to become what you have made it.

Basically you are now taking the position that there can not be ANY WRATH in the gt.
Not an ounce or a sliver.

That is silly.

But nonetheless the core of your position.

I notice you left out God killing aaron on horeb.

Was there wrath?

See, i don't need it to be a certain way. You do.
We have 2 COMPLETELY different starting places and defending rabbit trails ( making you go against the word) is what i make my opponent do.
Glad i can just read it and accept it.

That bible you stay away from is not a mental book.
Your mental gymnastics on wrath proves you can not handle multifaceted truth.

We see you guys over and over in that dwarfed mindset of " show me where it says 'white bird' on the white bird" ..." See it can not be a white bird, you guys are liars"

Pure comedy.
Runningman avoids the principle of Gods wrath like no one else I've ever seen. He won't even admit that the Daniels 70th week time of tribulation is God's wrath upon the earth. As well as the wrath of the Lamb up on the earth.

No wonder the rest of his doctrinal assertions are such a mess.
 
Dec 29, 2021
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The Great Tribulation will come upon the whole world as a snare.

In Luke 21:36, we are told to pray that we might escape that snare and I believe that this means escaping the Great Trib.
You can make it up any way you like, but the oldest New Testaments we have prove you are making it up any way you like! And make believe is fake and not real!
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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You can make it up any way you like, but the oldest New Testaments we have prove you are making it up any way you like! And make believe is fake and not real!
Are you saying the oldest Greek manuscripts do not include Luke:21:36?
Or perhaps they don't use the word escape?
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Are you saying the oldest Greek manuscripts do not include Luke:21:36?
Or perhaps they don't use the word escape?
then take out take out 1thess chapter 4 and 1cor 15:50-54 or Matthew 24 take out the Noah account of the Ark or the crossing of the Red sea, how about the fourth man in the ferry furnace just rip it all out. From what we read in the word of God it is completely far-fetched that God could raise the dead and then take up into heaven those who are alive. Elijah was taken up in the chariot all is Baloney.

Its myths, folklore, added in by the RCC church fairytales.
 
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Are you saying the oldest Greek manuscripts do not include Luke:21:36?
Or perhaps they don't use the word escape?
No, I posted the 200 A.D. Version 2 pages back.

I am claiming Snare = Paul's Delusion or Lies some will believe like the pre-trib rapture.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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We as people have made up the pre, mid, and post tribulation in our pride wanting to have all the answers and make sense of the mysteries of God when these are only revealed to the close followers such as the disciples, the ones predestined to have ears to hear What the spirit of the Lord says. Like when Jesus said who do you say that I am Peter said why are you are the son of God and Jesus said this has been revealed to you by my Father in Heaven not by man and same thing with this topic these mysteries from revelation Are revealed by the Holy Spirit to those in the covenant with Jesus. Those that will be reigning in the Kingdom ok Heaven not all can rule many are called but few chosen. These Will be given an understanding of the kingdom of God which includes the rapture but I do not call it the rapture as the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that it is the resurrection. In the Bible it’s spoken of as the end of the age; the last day; the day of the Lord it will be the first ressurection dead and alive chosen to rule with Christ.
Nope, Jesus told the Disciples he would send us the Holy Spirit when he died, the he brought us the Holy Spirit after ascending unto the Father to offer the Sacrifice. The Holy Spirit is the one who is to lead us into ALL TRUTH, so that's a myth that only the Disciples were so close to the Lord that they go all of the keys to the Gospel, we are all given that info if we seek God and hear the Holy Spirits small still voice. Too many people hear Satan the liar like Judas did, we even saw Peter hear his voice and Jesus had to rebuke Satan.
 

Rondonmon

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then take out take out 1thess chapter 4 and 1cor 15:50-54 or Matthew 24 take out the Noah account of the Ark or the crossing of the Red sea, how about the fourth man in the ferry furnace just rip it all out. From what we read in the word of God it is completely far-fetched that God could raise the dead and then take up into heaven those who are alive. Elijah was taken up in the chariot all is Baloney.

Its myths, folklore, added in by the RCC church fairytales.
If you can't see the Rapture you are in error, that will be on you in the day of judgment, and your judgment on those of us who were correct may just leave you with a shack on the hill in the kingdom to come.
 
Dec 29, 2021
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Are you saying the oldest Greek manuscripts do not include Luke:21:36?
Or perhaps they don't use the word escape?
Let's examine the 200 A.D. Verse Luke 21:
36 But watch at every time, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of man.

Why do we need Strength to escape a Rapture?

We need Strength to escape a Snare and Delusion/Lies?

Christ said that WE need STRENGTH to Escape, but the rapture, we would not need strength because we are just Rapture'd.

So clearly, Verse 36 is speaking about Paul's Delusion, not Rapture [where we need no strength for that].
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You are all mixed up my friend. When Paul speaks of the body of Christ he is speaking about the Church only. Nobody else....
Really? He wrote 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This is THE resurrection chapter. So, we see who received a glorified body first: Christ. "THEN, WHEN HE COMES" which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him".

So, please prove that "those who belong to Him" cannot be any believer from the OT. nonsense.

Matt 22:13, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 all speak of the resurrection of the saved in the singular. That means ONLY ONE.

And Rev 20:5 shows that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection. From Acts 24:15 we know there are just 2, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

And 2 Thess 2:1 proves that the rapture (gathering) is at the Second Advent.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him, (rapture) we ask you, brothers and sisters,
 
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If Jesus indeed was sacrificed as a substitute for man then that should be your STARTING PLACE.P.QUOTE]
I'm still waiting for any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Pure comedy.
That would be the notion that Jesus does take these people to heaven.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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If you can't see the Rapture you are in error, that will be on you in the day of judgment, and your judgment on those of us who were correct may just leave you with a shack on the hill in the kingdom to come.
I see the blessed hope in the word of God very clearly and I teach the coming of the Lord is soon. :)
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". So no one has a "choice" as you assume.

The Bible doesn't teach that. So you must have made that up.
These questions have been answered perhaps a million times by now in forum threads.
So-called "answered". Big difference.

You have not believed even one answer.
Right. Because they are NOT answers. They are responses only.

WHERE did Jesus go to build homes for us? On earth? Hardly!
Oh, how tired. John 14:1-6 has NOTHING to do with rapture. Jesus hadn't died YET when He told His 11 saved disciples that. He was assuring them that they would be IN heaven when they died. He was giving them a lesson on eternal security.

After Jesus' crucifixion, He DID ascend to heaven. So His words have ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED. And EVERY one of the 11 disciples ARE NOW IN HEAVEN, in the rooms (mansions) He already prepared for them.

WHERE will Jesus be while Revelation chapters 8-16 are taking place? Of course, in heaven. Rev. 19 proves that.
Of course.

True, the rapture will certainly happen the NEXT coming, which will be His second time to come - but He will come ONLY to the air: no touch down.
You are ignoring all that the Bible teaches. It speaks of resurrection of the saved in the SINGULAR. There are not more than 1 resurrection of the saved. There is also A resurrection of the unsaved. Acts 24:15 proves this.

Since Rev 20:5 plainly tells us that the resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection, this proves that the resurrection, which includes the so-called rapture, occurs at the Second Advent.

And 2 Thess 2:1 actually says so. " Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"

It says prōtos resurrection. You only assume "first" is the best translation.
Wrong. No assumption. Acts 24:15 SAYS there is a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. And Matt 22:13, Luke 14:14 ns 1 Cor 15:23 all show a singular resurrection. So I am believing what the Bible SAYS, no assumptions.

Since Jesus' resurrection was really the "first" as in sequence, then "first" is not the right translation for this Greek work.
This is nonsense. 1 Cor 15:23 properly explains it. Jesus' resurrection is called "firstfruits" since he was the first to receive a glorified body. Then, the verse tells us PLAINLY that "when He comes, the, those who belong to Him". That is a singular event. Not several events, or a series of events, etc.

It was also translated as "Chief" and could be as "most honorable."
Nope. Since the Bible always refers to the resurrection of the saved in the singular, we know that Rev 20:5 showing the FIRST resurrection means the first of two total resurrections, one for the saved (at the end of the Trib and Second Advent) and one for the unsaved (GWT judgment).

This resurrection, being for all the righteous for all time, is certainly the most honorable of resurrections
No. Acts 24:15 is clear; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

I see that you don't see.

No problem at all when you look at a Greek Lexicon.
The problem is you pick and choose what you WANT from a lexicon and IGNORE what the Bible clearly says.

You only imagined that there was a resurrection for the righteous only ONE TIME.
I am so tired of these ridiculous and ludicrous comments.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. ie: one each!
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Now, on the basis of these verses, go ahead and prove from Scripture that there are MORE THAN ONE resurrection of the saved.

It was pure imagination based on a faulty translation.
I await your proof from Scripture.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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Does not prove they were saved after the rapture of the church.
Why did you leave out the part that this is the first resurrection?
Of course it does, if you can add, you guys can't add 2 + 2 = 4.

I spelled it out and you still can't see it. Satan's whispers are very deceitful, that is what God has forewarned us about.

So, if those seen in the 5th Seal CAN NOT GO TO Heaven until all of their brothers have been killed by the Anti-Christ Beast just as they were, and if they are seen being JUDGED in Rev. 20:4 AFTER the Second Coming, and if the Dead in Christ are only raised at the EXACT SAME TIME as the living (1 Cor. 15:50-52), then if all this is true, and it is, then who are those we see in Rev. 7:9-17 ? They re the Pre Trib Raptured Church who came out of the 2000 some odd year great tribulation where many, many, many of them were killed for Jesus' name sakes.

We also se the Church in Rev. 4 and 5 BEFORE Jesus opens the Seals, in Rev. 2:10 we see that OVERCOMERS are promised the Crown of Life, in Rev. 3:5 he that OVERCOMES will gain a White Raiment (Gown), and on Rev. 3:21 we see that those who OVERCOME will be made to sit amidst God's Throne. Now, how hard s it to understand this symbology when in Rev. 4:4 we see ALL THREE THINGS Promised unto those who OVERCOME in one verse !!

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

This comes after the Trumpet Rapture in Rev. 4:1, which comes just after the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period as seen in Rev. chapters 2 and 3 because 7 means COMPLETION, this you were given the entire Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3, every thing after that is the HEREAFTER !! As seen below:

Rev. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

In Rev. 1 John was told to write about what he had seen, Jesus in his walk and now Jesus in his Glory in Revelation chapter 1 where we actually see Jesus in his glorious state, Amen. The Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3, that was the time John was living in on earth, of course, thus Jesus said the THINGS WHICH ARE (Church Age as in NOW) and the thins which will be HEREAFTER. Well what can be HEREAFTER? It can only be the 70th week because we are shown the 70th week events after the Church Age Events. We see the Church get Raptured (Rev. 4:1), we see the Church in Heaven (Rev. 4:4) then we see them singing in Rev. 5:9-10

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Has it SUNK IN YET? The Church is seen here in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are ever opened, Angels do not need redeeming, this is the Church in Heaven. Try as you might you will always fail against me on this because the truth is the truth. Most of you guys are not preachers and have no calling as per Prophecy, but you try to teach it anyway, and that is dangerous, God called you all to something, just not prophecy.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". So no one has a "choice" as you assume.

The Bible doesn't teach that. So you must have made that up.
We should not form a doctrine from an isolated verse.
I've just given you 4 verses that SAY that there is A resurrection of the saved. That's hardly "an isolated verse". Your defense mechanisms need a lot of work.

One verse does hint that it will be those who are "In Christ" that are raised, or those that belong to him.
Seriously, "hint"?? No, 1 For 15:23 speaks PLAINLY and STRAIGHTFORWARD about it. btw, "those who belong to Him" would be everyone who has believed on Him.

But if you'd like to argue that "those who belong to Him" CANNOT be any OT believer, be my guest.

Everyone who has believed in Christ for salvation belongs to Him. It would be insanity to claim otherwise.

Your argument fails.

But another verse may well modify that to say, of those that belong to him, I am only going to appear to those who are looking for me, expecting My coming. If this is true, and it is, will those caught up belong to Him? Of course, they will.
You have all the verses you need to believe that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Why would God write of an escape plan if none existed?
What, exactly, is this "escape plan"? For over 2,000 years, the "church" has suffered EXTREME persecution all over the world. And it's about to hit the shores of the USA.

If believers have been severely persecuted for over 2,000 years, what makes you think God is going to have an "escape plan" for probably the most carnal and weak generation of believers EVER????

The longer time goes on, the worse the state of Christianity is. Just look across Christianity and count the various and different positions there are. We have Calvinists, Arminians, Mormons, SDA, etc.

Since He did write of it, of course, it does exist.
I would like to see it and read it. Please.

It has nothing to do with the church for the past 2000 years.
What, the "escape plan"? Then your "escape plan" is for whom, exactly?
 
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