The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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Because Christ said it was a shortened period of time. We are told it will be 42 months in Revelation. General tribulation has always existed but the Great Tribulation Christ spoke of in the Olivet Discourse is a specific time of tribulation that will be greater (worse) than any other time in history. It hasn't started yet but when someone claims to be god, rules the world and can perform miracles, then we will know the Great Tribulation has started.
So, God created the Great Tribulation for some of the church but not all of it, is what you are saying?

What makes the Tribulation saints so special, that they are counted worthy to suffer so for Christ when the rest of the church didn't?
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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That is exactly what the verse plainly tells us. It's a different type of escape. The snare is the deception of a false God. The church will escape that while being persecuted right here on the Earth. Over and over it has happened like this. Never was the rapture used to evade being killed.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
The Great Trib will be a time when the evil one will be all-pervading.

Therefore it would be necessary for God to take the church out of the world in order to keep them from the evil one.

In John 17, Jesus was praying that the church would remain on the earth for a long season; at least for as long as they could retain power on the earth until the power of the evil one would become all-pervading; at which time Jesus would take His people up in order to keep them from the power of the evil one as, at that time, it will be the only way for Him to do so.
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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It is for SURE church goers that believe they are "Christian" but have never been born again will be left behind. They are not "In Christ."
Are the 144000 Jewish believers left behind in the tribulation part of the body of Christ or not?
How many bodies are there? When he returns Jesus separates people into two groups ie Sheep and Goats. The Sheep appear to be yet another body! The question Paul asks is a good one
'Is Christ Divided?' According to some the answer appears to be yes
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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The Great Trib will be a time when the evil one will be all-pervading.

Therefore it would be necessary for God to take the church out of the world in order to keep them from the evil one.
Which goes against what Christ taught and is against what Paul taught which was a post-trib rapture. It also denies all the scriptures which say members of the church will be persecuted and even killed such as the 5th seal, Revelation 11, Revelation 13 and Revelation 20 not to mentioned the same being described by Christ in the Olivet Discourse.
 

justbyfaith

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I don't feel the need to keep arguing here and am not going to change my view.

It was nice talking with you, though.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Why hasn't the Great Tribulation been happening during the entire church age then?
Great tribulation happen only on the end, but tribulation for the Christian always happen start Stephen being stoned to death.
In my country now there is ex Muslim evangelist arrested bite to ancouncious 3 time, after a month or 2 while still sick they put on trial till back uncounsious the lawyer request hospital, prosecutor say no money, the lawyer pay the hospital
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You can stay begin if you wish, and it seems that is the choice you have made.
1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". So no one has a "choice" as you assume.

The Bible doesn't teach that. So you must have made that up.

You COULD believe God for His escape plan, but you want to face the Antichrist. So be it.
Why would there be an escape plan, given that for over 2,000 years, the church has suffered severe persecution all over the world?

Here's the facts though.

Scripture teaches there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15. If you disagree with this, address the verse and prove to me that it says something different.

The Bible describes the resurrection of martyred saints in Rev 20:5 as the FIRST one. That means there's only one more, which is for unbelievers to attend the GWT judgment.

2 Thess 2:1 clearly shows the rapture occurring at the Second Advent.

Which verse shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven? Do you have any?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Resurrection. There are two types - One to life and one to condemnation.
True. Acts 24:15 says so.

And since the Body of Christ IS NOT in the grave but waiting in the General Assembly, (third heaven, Heb. 12: 23) then we are not involved in those resurrections. Instead we are changed - `put on incorruption...and immortality.` (1 Cor. 15: 52 & 53)
Recall that the church has been around for over 2,000 years. So at this point, the VAST majority have already died and are in heaven.

So MOST of the Body of Christ's bodies ARE in the grave, waiting to be resurrected "when He comes". 1 Cor 15:23.
 
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RichMan

Guest
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, these are Judged AFTER Jesus' return to earth with the Church as Rev. 19 shows, which happens just before Armageddon, which is the Marriage Feast.

Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are the Martyrs shown later on in Rev. 20:4 Jesus specifically tells them they must wait until all of their brothers were killed in like manner as they were, by the Anti-Christ.

No one from the 70th week Martyrs goes to Heaven, they are seen in Rev. 20:4 as being raised and judged after Jesus' Second Coming. Jesus foretold that they would not be raised until after all of the brothers had been killed in like manner, or until the Anti-Christs 42 month rule was fulfilled.

Thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are NOT from the 70th week tribulation, but the Raptured Church from the great church age tribulation.

The Remnant from Rev. 12:17 CAN NOT be Jews, its the Remnant Church from the SEED of Jesus.
Does not prove they were saved after the rapture of the church.
Why did you leave out the part that this is the first resurrection?
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Why hasn't the Great Tribulation been happening during the entire church age then?
Of course not. The 70th week of Daniel and the Great Tribulation are Israel specific. Remember that the "prince that shall come" needs to actually sit in the yet future rebuilt temple (which will be located in Israel) demanding worship as God. This specific event begins the Great Tribulation.

The Great Tribulation is time (3 1/2 years yet future) people (Israelites) and location (Israel) specific. Furthermore the GT has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church because the Church will have been raptured AT LEAST 3 1/2 years beforehand.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Are the 144000 Jewish believers left behind in the tribulation part of the body of Christ or not?
How many bodies are there? When he returns Jesus separates people into two groups ie Sheep and Goats. The Sheep appear to be yet another body! The question Paul asks is a good one
'Is Christ Divided?' According to some the answer appears to be yes
You are all mixed up my friend. When Paul speaks of the body of Christ he is speaking about the Church only. Nobody else...not the 144,000, not the tribulation saints not the Old Testament saints.

The Bride is unique and specifically identified as the Church. It is she that arrives WITH Jesus in Revelation 19, having been already raptured by Revelation 4:1....exactly as Jesus promised in John 14. Exactly as Paul describes in first and second Thessalonians and 1Corinthians 15.

The 144,000 Israelite commandos are ELECT wedding supper guests, and enter into the kingdom.

Tribulation saints who come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation and suffer martyrdom
are ELECT wedding supper guests, and enter into the kingdom.

Resurrected Old Testament saints are ELECT wedding supper guests, and enter into the kingdom.

Gentiles who survive the sheep and goat judgments are ELECT wedding supper guests and enter into the kingdom.

Gentile believers who survive the tribulation and are not martyred are ELECT wedding supper guests and enter into the kingdom.

Israelites who survive the tribulation and survive the Ezekiel 20:37 "pass under the rod" are ELECT wedding supper guests and enter into the kingdom.

I think that this wedding supper is very extensive and long-lasting.....maybe lasting as long as the millennium or beyond into eternity.....who really knows?

There is a little wiggle room here.....but it doesn't really matter. The point is that there is the Church and the Church age bracketed by Pentecost and the rapture.....she ALONE is the Bride.
Everyone else are wedding guests invited to the wedding supper.

Whenever you read any of Jesus's kingdom parables and you're dealing with guests to the wedding supper......you know that it's someone other than the Church.
 
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RichMan

Guest
You are all mixed up my friend. When Paul speaks of the body of Christ he is speaking about the Church only. Nobody else...not the 144,000, not the tribulation saints not the Old Testament saints.

The Bride is unique and specifically identified as the Church. It is she that arrives WITH Jesus in Revelation 19, having been already raptured by Revelation 4:1....exactly as Jesus promised in John 14. Exactly as Paul describes in first and second Thessalonians and 1Corinthians 15.

The 144,000 Israelite commandos are ELECT wedding supper guests, and enter into the kingdom.

Tribulation saints who come to faith in Jesus during the tribulation and suffer martyrdom
are ELECT wedding supper guests, and enter into the kingdom.

Resurrected Old Testament saints are ELECT wedding supper guests, and enter into the kingdom.

Gentiles who survive the sheep and goat judgments are ELECT wedding supper guests and enter into the kingdom.

Gentile believers who survive the tribulation and are not martyred are ELECT wedding supper guests and enter into the kingdom.

Israelites who survive the tribulation and survive the Ezekiel 20:37 "pass under the rod" are ELECT wedding supper guests and enter into the kingdom.

I think that this wedding supper is very extensive and long-lasting.....maybe lasting as long as the millennium or beyond into eternity.....who really knows?

There is a little wiggle room here.....but it doesn't really matter. The point is that there is the Church and the Church age bracketed by Pentecost and the rapture.....she ALONE is the Bride.
Everyone else are wedding guests invited to the wedding supper.

Whenever you read any of Jesus's kingdom parables and you're dealing with guests to the wedding supper......you know that it's someone other than the Church.
You really do not understand Scripture do you. It is not up to you to put your own spin on Scripture to prove your belief.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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That says it pleased the Lord. Nothing about the wrath of God being upon Jesus. Try again. Surely you have more than one passage composed of two verses that props up your doctrine.
If Jesus indeed was sacrificed as a substitute for man then that should be your STARTING PLACE.

I totally understand your need for clinical definitions that suit you.

But to be put to death for another and escape the actual wrath of that punishment ( no beating, no bruising, no crushing, no nails, no cross and no death) is one thing, but then to just assume there was no substitute of Gods wrath is taking your clinical definitions into heresy.
He became a curse.
He took upon him the sin of the world.
He experienced Gods rejection.
The JUDGEMENT OF THE WORLD , GODS WRATH, WAS UPON HIM.

IF you leave out substitute then you corrupt Jesus mission.

IOW, You now need to take "wrath" from judgement.
In your new limited "understanding" that you are trying to reframe Jesus mission, you have a need for wrath to become what you have made it.

Basically you are now taking the position that there can not be ANY WRATH in the gt.
Not an ounce or a sliver.

That is silly.

But nonetheless the core of your position.

I notice you left out God killing aaron on horeb.

Was there wrath?

See, i don't need it to be a certain way. You do.
We have 2 COMPLETELY different starting places and defending rabbit trails ( making you go against the word) is what i make my opponent do.
Glad i can just read it and accept it.

That bible you stay away from is not a mental book.
Your mental gymnastics on wrath proves you can not handle multifaceted truth.

We see you guys over and over in that dwarfed mindset of " show me where it says 'white bird' on the white bird" ..." See it can not be a white bird, you guys are liars"

Pure comedy.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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You really do not understand Scripture do you. It is not up to you to put your own spin on Scripture to prove your belief.
we all are putting. In our 2 cents.
All of us.

Nobody has 100 % revelation.

What is your take on the bride, the supper, and the wedding?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Which verse says God’s wrath went upon Jesus? This should be easy if there is one. As far as I know there is no such doctrine as God being angry at Jesus for anything and yes of course Jesus is God.
I just did a little 5 minute search on " wrath"

I did not find anywhere ( yet...still looking at it) where wrath is mentioned in the flood.

But it fits all test patterns.

You now can safely ASSUME that all Gods judgements in the ot were not wrath in any way, unless it SPECIFICALLY SAYS "WRATH" IN THE STORY.

Do the study and show me "wrath" in every judgement

Now remember, not "implied", it HAS TO use that word.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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You really do not understand Scripture do you. It is not up to you to put your own spin on Scripture to prove your belief.
Of course, the real meaning is, "I understand much better than you do."
 
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RichMan

Guest
Of course, the real meaning is, "I understand much better than you do."
Understand is simple. Read what is said and accept it. Do not try to find hidden meanings to prove what you have already decided what is true or false.
Many statements have been made that can only be proven by assuming a Scripture supports it when in fact it does not.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". So no one has a "choice" as you assume.

The Bible doesn't teach that. So you must have made that up.


Why would there be an escape plan, given that for over 2,000 years, the church has suffered severe persecution all over the world?

Here's the facts though.

Scripture teaches there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15. If you disagree with this, address the verse and prove to me that it says something different.

The Bible describes the resurrection of martyred saints in Rev 20:5 as the FIRST one. That means there's only one more, which is for unbelievers to attend the GWT judgment.

2 Thess 2:1 clearly shows the rapture occurring at the Second Advent.

Which verse shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven? Do you have any?
These questions have been answered perhaps a million times by now in forum threads. You have not believed even one answer. WHERE did Jesus go to build homes for us? On earth? Hardly! WHERE will Jesus be while Revelation chapters 8-16 are taking place? Of course, in heaven. Rev. 19 proves that.

True, the rapture will certainly happen the NEXT coming, which will be His second time to come - but He will come ONLY to the air: no touch down.

It says prōtos resurrection. You only assume "first" is the best translation. Since Jesus' resurrection was really the "first" as in sequence, then "first" is not the right translation for this Greek work. It was also translated as "Chief" and could be as "most honorable." This resurrection, being for all the righteous for all time, is certainly the most honorable of resurrections. See? No problem at all when you look at a Greek Lexicon. You only imagined that there was a resurrection for the righteous only ONE TIME. It was pure imagination based on a faulty translation.

Jesus rose. A long time ago. CHECK!

The Dead in Christ will rise later. CHECK!

The beheaded and the two witnesses and all the Old Testament saints will rise even later. CHECK!
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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Understand is simple. Read what is said and accept it. Do not try to find hidden meanings to prove what you have already decided what is true or false.
Many statements have been made that can only be proven by assuming a Scripture supports it when in fact it does not.
I was only commenting on the manner in which you wrote.
 
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RichMan

Guest
we all are putting. In our 2 cents.
All of us.

Nobody has 100 % revelation.

What is your take on the bride, the supper, and the wedding?
To answer your question would take much more time than I have now.
Need to get on top of the house and clean my chimney today.
 
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