The "Five-Fold Ministry"

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is today's "Five-Fold Ministry" legitimate?

  • yes

    Votes: 8 80.0%
  • no

    Votes: 2 20.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
M

MaggieMye

Guest
#61
Who here said no pastors or teachers? (SL)
Well....how can you eliminate only one or two of the FIVE mentioned?? They were put down TOGETHER...the FIVE. If you eliminate one or two, apostles and prophets, then you MUST eliminate them all. It's always been a packaged deal. And we know this because NOWHERE is there any verse that says one or the other is to cease. Just because they were not recognized by the church at large (after Constantine) does not mean they have been eliminated by God. He did NOT eliminate them in His word!!
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#62
The bible says there are still apostles, so I believe their are. God's word is what my beliefs rest on.

The bible also says Matthias, and barnabas were apostles. So even you try to dismiss that I will not. Including Paul we have atleast 14 Apostles, that blows the 12 out of the water, not to mention James the Brother of Jesus was not one of the original 12, but was an apostle. We are now at 15 and counted...Jude..16 ect, ect, ect,
Cool so there is still Christian foundational teachings still needing to be laid out?

If Apostles exist today, just like the 12 original ones, then you're basically saying we have an incomplete foundation of teachings to draw off from.

No wonder that camp is so full of error and heresy. They're still adding to the foundation that was laid in 100% completeness.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#63
Who here said no pastors or teachers? (SL)
Well....how can you eliminate only one or two of the FIVE mentioned?? They were put down TOGETHER...the FIVE. If you eliminate one or two, apostles and prophets, then you MUST eliminate them all. It's always been a packaged deal. And we know this because NOWHERE is there any verse that says one or the other is to cease. Just because they were not recognized by the church at large (after Constantine) does not mean they have been eliminated by God. He did NOT eliminate them in His word!!
Because pastor teacher isn't described as part of the foundation.


19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the [a]saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#64
Who here said no pastors or teachers? (SL)
Well....how can you eliminate only one or two of the FIVE mentioned?? They were put down TOGETHER...the FIVE. If you eliminate one or two, apostles and prophets, then you MUST eliminate them all. It's always been a packaged deal. And we know this because NOWHERE is there any verse that says one or the other is to cease. Just because they were not recognized by the church at large (after Constantine) does not mean they have been eliminated by God. He did NOT eliminate them in His word!!
SINCE WHEN HAS IT ALWAYS BEEN A "PACKAGE DEAL"?

name 60 Apostles since john died. or 40. or 10.
WHERE ARE THEIR WRITINGS?

DOES YOUR BIBLE HAVE A BOOK CALLED THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST IN THE BACK? THAT'S IT. CLOSED.

see the SOME AS?
the commas are not in the original greek, but the translators knew what Paul meant.
do you?

pastors and teachers go together as one unit: they are what we have TODAY.

Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

if the doctrines of the Biblical Apostles are not enough for you, you are in danger of the warning of Rev 22.

if you believe God is giving new revelation through prophets today, ditto.

BLAMING THIS ON CONSTANTINE?
i bet i'll find that junk on Wagner's site.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#65
Cool so there is still Christian foundational teachings still needing to be laid out?

If Apostles exist today, just like the 12 original ones, then you're basically saying we have an incomplete foundation of teachings to draw off from.

No wonder that camp is so full of error and heresy. They're still adding to the foundation that was laid in 100% completeness.
see what Jesus meant about KEEPING HIS WORDS?
and remaining faithful?

the NAR and charismatics are now the fasting growing group.
nobody said this would be easy.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#66
These people self contradict.

Them: Apostles are for today.

me: No apostles like we see them in the bible aren't for today. They laid the foundation. There is no foundation left to be laid.

Them: There is no indication the office of apostle ceased.

Me: Do you think a modern day apostle will contradict anything in the Bible?

Them: Of course not! The Bible is the complete revelation of God. Anyone who contradicts it is a false teacher.

Me: So you don't view the 12 apostles as foundation layers, yet you say the Bible is complete and nothing can be said to contradict it?

Them: Huh?

Me: Well I asserted that the apostles laid the foundation and there is no more foundation to be laid, thus no more apostles. You say there are still apostles, yet you say nothing can be said that will contradict the original apostles. So you're basically saying the works of the original apostles ARE what we draw from as our source of knowledge. Looks like a foundation to me...
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#67
Or in more simplistic words...

They believe the teachings of the apostles are our only point of reference, yet they also believe in modern day apostles who are just like the first apostles. So their point of reference is the foundation, but they still believe there are people operating in an office that is laying foundation

No wonder they're so confused!
 
Sep 9, 2011
455
0
0
#68
It is YOU who is suposed to be that Apostle, Prophet, Teacher, Christ in you.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#69
Or in more simplistic words...

They believe the teachings of the apostles are our only point of reference, yet they also believe in modern day apostles who are just like the first apostles. So their point of reference is the foundation, but they still believe there are people operating in an office that is laying foundation

No wonder they're so confused!
= NO REAL FOUNDATION.



1 Corinthians 3:10
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#71
It is YOU who is suposed to be that Apostle, Prophet, Teacher, Christ in you.
we're all CHRISTS?

do we take our pick?



Which “Jesus” do you worship?

Posted on March 14, 2010 by Pilgrim



False idols of who Jesus is come in all shades and styles, but there’s nothing that’s created more false idols of who Jesus is than man’s own heart.

Unfortunately, most people have created a “Jesus” of their own liking, fashioned in the recesses of their carnal minds (or created by some religious leader that they’ve submitted their lives and entrusted their souls to) and that’s the “Jesus” they serve and worship. Ironically, these false idols of “Jesus” bear a striking resemblance to those who created them (and their desires), but very little–if any–resemblance to the Jesus of the Bible.

Since there are so many versions of “Jesus” circulating out there I’ve decided to create this easy to use (but non-exhaustive) resource as a way to help you know which “Jesus” you worship based solely upon what you believe about Him.


If your Jesus . . .


. . . is the sibling of Satan; born from a sexual encounter between God the Father who was once a man (Adam to be exact) and God’s own daughter Mary; who was crucified because he practiced polygamy; who did not pay for the sins of the world on the cross but in the Garden of Gethsemane, whose sacrifice was insufficient since you still have to work your way to heaven and in some cases your own blood must be spilled to redeem yourself; and who could not maintain his church but had to commission a lying, swindling, occult-dabbling, womanizing, pedophiliac, adulterer, Freemason, con-artist who was known for telling tall tales (whose own account of the first vision changed several times), to “translate” an ancient and “inspired” book that needed almost 4,000 corrections, changes, and alterations since it’s first publication, and to “restore” the church that your Jesus couldn’t keep together . . .
. . . then you worship the Mormon Jesus.


_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .
. . . is a created being (Michael the Archangel to be exact); who is not God but a god (thus making you a polytheist); who will condemn you for celebrating your birthday or giving your child a life saving blood transfusion; who did not die on a cross but on an upright stake; whose body is unaccounted for and still missing today because he did not physically rise from the dead but only raised “spiritually;” whose sacrifice was insufficient because you still have to earn your own salvation; and who–in spite of accepting worship from those around him–does not want you to worship him . . .

. . . then you worship give obeisance to the Jehovah’s Witness Jesus


_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .


. . . is most commonly depicted as a helpless infant or dead upon a cross; who is bound to take orders from his mortal mom who he created (the Creator subjecting himself to the creation); who has to share his glory with the mortal human Mary; who is our mediator between his earthly, kindhearted, and loving mother and his angry, vindictive father; who is sacrificed again and again every week (in spite of the Bible saying He was sacrificed once and for all, never to be sacrificed again) because mortal human priests have incredible power to call him down from heaven and magically turn him into a cracker and wine (again being subject to his creation instead of the other way around); and whose sacrifice was insufficient because you still have to merit your own salvation . . .

. . . then you worship the Roman Catholic Jesus


_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .


. . . is a hippie-like figure who no longer considers the Bible as a final authority but questions the very Scriptures and their perspicuity, even going as far as to justify such sins as homosexuality; who no longer differentiates between sheep and goats, wheat and tares, truth and error, light and darkness, the broad road and the narrow path, but now warmly accepts Roman Catholicism, Lecto Divina, and other false religious traditions and mystical practices (it would be judgmental not to); and whose motto is “come as you are and you can stay that way too because only Pharisees would tell you otherwise,” . . .
. . . then you worship the Emergent Jesus.


_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .


. . . wears an Armani suit while driving a Lexus; whose sole purpose for existence is to show you by example how to line your pockets with greenbacks if you simply sow a financial seed of faith; who confirms your salvation by such outward expressions as being slain in the spirit and speaking in tongues; and who says that if you don’t accept these strange doctrines then you’re just not anointed enough . . .

. . . then you worship the Charismatic Word of Faith Jesus.



_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .

. . . is a registered Republican; wrapped in the American flag; whose purpose for coming to earth was to show us that the gospel is salvation through legislation; who wants us to set up God’s kingdom on earth by our efforts and political action; who exists to help your son win the football game and your daughter win the dance recital; and who doesn’t mind sitting on the shelf till you’re ready to pull him out at Christmas, Easter, weddings, funerals, national tragedies, or whenever you want to feel good about yourself . . .

. . . then you worship American Jesus.


_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .

. . . never mentions your sinfulness or his holiness, but instead emphasizes having a good time in church with a rockin’ praise band; boasts of a fun atmosphere for kids; has a relevant message from the latest Hollywood movie; and offers free coffee and donuts in the lounge . . .

. . . then you worship the Laodicean Jesus (see also Mega-Church Jesus below).


_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .
. . . is a Hawaiian shirt-wearing, big-teeth smiling, latte-drinking-while-preaching, motivational speaker peddling the message that God’s greatest hope for mankind is that they reach their full potential by finding their purpose in this life and living that best life now . . .

. . . then you worship Mega-Church Jesus



_________________________________________________________________________


If your Jesus . . .


. . . considers praise music and CCM to be the two sacraments of the church; considers a membership in a Christian CD music club to be evidence of sanctification; emphasizes the church praise band’s practice sessions over that of church Bible study, prayer, evangelism, and holiness; suggests that the church is a place to showcase one’s talent for rockin’ a guitar for God; and who believes that music “reaches people” in a way that the gospel can’t . . .

. . . then you worship Musician Jesus (aka Golden Calf Jesus).



_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .


. . . believes public school teachers, Christian psychologists, the church, the lead pastor, and especially the “youth pastor” are all responsible for your child’s biblical and spiritual upbringing, development, nourishment, and maturity (everyone but their own parents); who teaches that peers of the same age group (and often the opposite sex) are the best mentors and role models for your children; whose “youth ministries” are most commonly identified by lock-ins, pizza parties, bowling nights, and lots of drama (both kinds); and who considers that those best qualified to pressure your child/teen into repeating a “sinner’s prayer” are the twenty-something hip dude who’s never raised any children of his own, has way too much gel in his hair, and knows more about MTV and U2 than theology and his Bible . . .

. . . then you worship Youth Pastor Jesus.


_________________________________________________________________________



If your Jesus . . .


. . . is an ascended master (one of many); who does not believe in sin, holiness, or redemption; and is accepting of all religions because he himself is just one of many paths to enlightenment . . .

. . . then you worship New Age Jesus (a.k.a. Oprah Jesus, not to be confused with the Robert Schuller Jesus or The Shack Jesus).

_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .
. . .is ok with the use of profanity, the twisting of parts of the Bible to promote masturbation and other parts of Scripture to create mandates for wives to commit certain sexual acts with their husbands; who winks at the copious amount of vulgarity, sexual innuendos, double entendres, and all things worldly; enjoys being depicted as a disc jokey on t-shirts; and whose premier preacher makes fun of “fundamentalists” (those who take the Bible seriously), mocks those who take responsibility for the education of their own children (because they take the Bible seriously), and considers Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuller his spiritual brothers . . .

. . . then you worship the Mark Driscoll Jesus



_________________________________________________________________________

If your Jesus . . .

. . . is the sovereign, mighty, holy, King of kings, Lord of lords, chief cornerstone; the Alpha and Omega; the First and Last; the Son of God; God in the flesh; a completely sufficient Savior; eternally existent; Creator of all things; who is, who was, who is to come; who became flesh; subject to no human; reigns over all; was born of a virgin; who shed His priceless Blood for His elect; who laid His life down upon a rugged cross, took that life up again–body and all–on the third day, snatched the keys of Hades, and removed the sting from death; who is the Prince of Peace, the Great Physician, Immanuel, God with us; whose yoke is easy and whose burden is light; who is a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, who is the faultless, sinless, unblemished, Lamb of God; the only mediator between God and man; the narrow gate; the way, the truth, the life; the only way to the Father; and who is worthy to receive glory, and honor, and power forever and ever, Amen!. . .​

. . . then you worship the Jesus of the Bible.




 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#72
Zone, great post.

Those figure's are disguised as Jesus but they are not! They are demons and people worship them!

I personally think that it will open the eyes of many so that they don't accept any RUBBISH out there.

Jesus is not the God of this world.

The FEAR of the the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#73
If your Jesus . . .

. . . never mentions your sinfulness or his holiness, but instead emphasizes having a good time in church with a rockin’ praise band; boasts of a fun atmosphere for kids; has a relevant message from the latest Hollywood movie; and offers free coffee and donuts in the lounge . . .

. . . then you worship the Laodicean Jesus (see also Mega-Church Jesus below).

This particular one reminds me of the church i attended a while ago, they were serving coffee in the church..lol
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#74
Cool so there is still Christian foundational teachings still needing to be laid out?

If Apostles exist today, just like the 12 original ones, then you're basically saying we have an incomplete foundation of teachings to draw off from.

No wonder that camp is so full of error and heresy. They're still adding to the foundation that was laid in 100% completeness.
?? has anyone mentioned these verses?

Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,


so if they are still putting down a new foundation, does Jesus has to die more then once now?
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#75


Look at this stuff anandaya tells me i have to eat...wonder if theres a hidden cheeseburger inside.
Ill be over at the house out back. Stop by if ya want zones.
its good for you and you know it :)
 
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
24
0
#76
There were 13 apostles. Mattias replaced Judas as prophecied at the beginning of Acts. That makes 12. Paul is the 13th apostle. Paul is proof that you didn't have to be one of Jesus original disciples to be an apostle. Paul was Saul of Tarsus and persucuted Christians. Until Saul was converted and became Paul, he was not a disciple of Jesus. Paul is proof that the it's possible to have more than 12 apostles. Paul is also proof that apostles might not be chosen because they are the most Christian or better than others. Paul's testimony is an awesome testimony of how God can choose who He wants for the ministry. Paul went from persecuter to leader.
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#77
Not in the sense of the 12 foundation laying apostles no.

This thread isn't about people still being used as 'messengers' today. This is asking the question if the office of apostle ie exactly like the 12 original is still operative today.

Barnabus wasn't an apostle in that sense.
Now there are two types of Apostles?
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#78
Cool so there is still Christian foundational teachings still needing to be laid out?

If Apostles exist today, just like the 12 original ones, then you're basically saying we have an incomplete foundation of teachings to draw off from.

No wonder that camp is so full of error and heresy. They're still adding to the foundation that was laid in 100% completeness.
Not saying anything about relaying a foundation. We know the foundation is Christ Himself.

Just stating the biblical facts

#1 There are more than 12 apostles mention in the bible
#2 Ephesians 4 tells us that there will be apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelist, and teachers until the church comes to the unity of faith, unto the full stature of Christ. Which has yet to hapen, therefore according to scripture there must still be apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelist, and teacher
 
Feb 16, 2011
2,957
24
0
#79
Reasons there could be apostles and prophets today.

Some ask why would we need apostles today.
Would they write new Scripture?
Not all of the apostles wrote Scripture. Notice we do not have books of the Bible from all the apostles.

Some say they were part of the foundation why do we need them now.
The Bible never said they were only for the foundation of the church.
Apostles and prophets had more than one function.

Some say no one would qualify.
Who would qualify?
Paul was Saul of Tarsus who persecuted the Church; God made him an apostle after his conversion.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#80
Not saying anything about relaying a foundation. We know the foundation is Christ Himself.

Just stating the biblical facts

#1 There are more than 12 apostles mention in the bible
#2 Ephesians 4 tells us that there will be apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelist, and teachers until the church comes to the unity of faith, unto the full stature of Christ. Which has yet to hapen, therefore according to scripture there must still be apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelist, and teacher
So do today's apostles have the same ability to inspire scripture and give new revelation? Will they reveal anything that isn't already in the Bible?