The "Five-Fold Ministry"

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is today's "Five-Fold Ministry" legitimate?

  • yes

    Votes: 8 80.0%

  • no

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
1

1still_waters

Guest
#81
#81
4runner said:
Now there are two types of Apostles?
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I think even you will say there are two types of apostles.

Surely you wouldn't say the apostles of today have the ability to write new scripture and give new revelation.

If that is your stance, then even YOU agree there are two levels of apostles.

On the other hand if you believe all apostles are the same, then you're basically saying there is NEW revelation and scripture yet to be given. If that is your stance, you're more like a Mormon or a cult member. I'm sure you're not though. I say that to show the logical ends of saying all apostles are the same. I'm not saying you're a mormon or cult member.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#82
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#82
1still_waters said:
I think even you will say there are two types of apostles.

Surely you wouldn't say the apostles of today have the ability to write new scripture and give new revelation.

If that is your stance, then even YOU agree there are two levels of apostles.
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All apostles may not be exactly the same, but all apostles are apostles. James and Jude wrote scripture, and neither of them were one of the original 12. Do you claim they were not apostles?

On the other hand if you believe all apostles are the same, then you're basically saying there is NEW revelation and scripture yet to be given. If that is your stance, you're more like a Mormon or a cult member. I'm sure you're not though. I say that to show the logical ends of saying all apostles are the same. I'm not saying you're a mormon or cult member.
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This is under your definition of what an apostles is not mine. You cannot use your opinion of apostle to dictate what I believe.

Whether or not todays apostle carry the exact same function as a 1st Century apostle is a different discussion. This discussion is simply are there apostle today, and the answer is yes.

To say that there were 12 and only 12 can be easy dis proven. There were more than 12 apostles mentioned in scripture, even if we do exclude Matthias which there is no grounds for doing.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#83
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#83
Originally Posted by 4runner

Not saying anything about relaying a foundation. We know the foundation is Christ Himself.

Just stating the biblical facts

#1 There are more than 12 apostles mention in the bible
#2 Ephesians 4 tells us that there will be apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelist, and teachers until the church comes to the unity of faith, unto the full stature of Christ. Which has yet to hapen, therefore according to scripture there must still be apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelist, and teacher
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1still_waters said:
So do today's apostles have the same ability to inspire scripture and give new revelation? Will they reveal anything that isn't already in the Bible?
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Any prophecy, teaching or belief that does not line up with scripture is false. We must judge all things by God's word. I do not or will not except extra biblical doctrine (such as the ceasation of apostles). Furthermore I will not receive any doctrine that actually opposes what scripture teaches.

We are told to prove all things through scripture, hold fast to those things that are good, and abstain from any appearance of evil.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#84
#84
4runner said:
Any prophecy, teaching or belief that does not line up with scripture is false. We must judge all things by God's word. I do not or will not except extra biblical doctrine (such as the ceasation of apostles). Furthermore I will not receive any doctrine that actually opposes what scripture teaches.

We are told to prove all things through scripture, hold fast to those things that are good, and abstain from any appearance of evil.
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Lol there you go. In your own words. Admitting that the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets is what we compare all to.

You just admitted that there was a foundation laid!

That foundation was laid by the apostles and prophets. Hence if it's laid, there is no more need for them!
 
damombomb

damombomb

Senior Member
#85
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#85
Weren,t apostles also called disciples. and didn,t Jesus say go and teach and make disciples?
Is,nt that what we are all doing now,proclaiming Jesus,just as they did back then?Until
Jesus returns?
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#86
#86
4runner said:
All apostles may not be exactly the same, but all apostles are apostles. James and Jude wrote scripture, and neither of them were one of the original 12. Do you claim they were not apostles?

This is under your definition of what an apostles is not mine. You cannot use your opinion of apostle to dictate what I believe.

Whether or not todays apostle carry the exact same function as a 1st Century apostle is a different discussion. This discussion is simply are there apostle today, and the answer is yes.

To say that there were 12 and only 12 can be easy dis proven. There were more than 12 apostles mentioned in scripture, even if we do exclude Matthias which there is no grounds for doing.
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But if apostles of today are different than the 1st ones, then they aren't apostles. They're something else.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#87
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#87
1still_waters said:
Lol there you go. In your own words. Admitting that the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets is what we compare all to.

You just admitted that there was a foundation laid!

That foundation was laid by the apostles and prophets. Hence if it's laid, there is no more need for them!
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James and Jude helped lay this foundation which is Christ, yet they are not apart of the 12. Are you saying even though they laid the foundation and wrote scripture that they were not apostles?

There are indeed true prophets, and apostles today and will be until we come to the unity of faith, and the full stature of Christ.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#88
#88
damombomb said:
Weren,t apostles also called disciples. and didn,t Jesus say go and teach and make disciples?
Is,nt that what we are all doing now,proclaiming Jesus,just as they did back then?Until
Jesus returns?
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1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and [a]James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and [c]Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; [d]James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the [e]Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

The 12 apostles were also considered disciples. That doesn't mean all disciples are apostles.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#89
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#89
1still_waters said:
But if apostles of today are different than the 1st ones, then they aren't apostles. They're something else.
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Are pastors today the same as first century pastors? I would say not. Does that mean they are not pastors?
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#90
#90
4runner said:
James and Jude helped lay this foundation which is Christ, yet they are not apart of the 12. Are you saying even though they laid the foundation and wrote scripture that they were not apostles?

There are indeed true prophets, and apostles today and will be until we come to the unity of faith, and the full stature of Christ.
Click to expand...
1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and [a]James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and [c]Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; [d]James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the [e]Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Jude 1

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

Jude was under direct authority of an apostle.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#91
#91
4runner said:
Are pastors today the same as first century pastors? I would say not. Does that mean they are not pastors?
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Pastors aren't described as laying a foundation.

Apostles and prophets are.

No more foundation needs to be laid, thus no need for apostles or prophets.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#92
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#92
1still_waters said:
1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and [a]James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and [c]Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; [d]James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the [e]Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Jude 1

1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

Jude was under direct authority of an apostle.
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The James that wrote James was Jesus' brother, not one of the 12. Jude too was one of Jesus' brother. Neither of them believed until after the resurrection of Christ.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#93
#93
4runner said:
The James that wrote James was Jesus' brother, not one of the 12. Jude too was one of Jesus' brother. Neither of them believed until after the resurrection of Christ.
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Can you prove it was Jesus' brother?
 
4

4runner

Banned
#94
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#94
I may be able to prove James the brother of Jesus wrote James, but for this discussion all I have to do is prove he was an apostle. thereby dis proving the 12 and only 12 theory. Which i can certainly do

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#95
#95
4runner said:
I may be able to prove James the brother of Jesus wrote James, but for this discussion all I have to do is prove he was an apostle. thereby dis proving the 12 and only 12 theory. Which i can certainly do

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
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That just says he didn't meet with the apostles, but he did meet with James the Lord's brother.
 
4

4runner

Banned
#96
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#96
Originally Posted by 4runner

I may be able to prove James the brother of Jesus wrote James, but for this discussion all I have to do is prove he was an apostle. thereby dis proving the 12 and only 12 theory. Which i can certainly do

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
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1still_waters said:
That just says he didn't meet with the apostles, but he did meet with James the Lord's brother.
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You do not really believe that do ya? Is holding to your belief really that important to you? It clearly states that James was the only apostle Paul met with.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
''The New Testament indicates that James and the others listed were the uterine brothers of Jesus. James, the Lord's brother, is generally thought to be the author of the Epistle of James. Jude, another brother of Jesus, wrote a short book in which he says that he is "a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James." This last expression indicates that Jude was not as well known as James.''
[/FONT]
Excerpt[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
By Ferrell Jenkins[/FONT]
 
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4

4runner

Banned
#97
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
5
0
#97
James, the Writer of the Epistle
One is tempted to quip, "Will the REAL James, please stand up!" We do have a challenge here. Let's establish some basics. Either the epistle was written by someone named James or the writer was giving the letter authority by claiming the name of James. Given the minimal emphasis on the name and its authority, it seems like a good possibility that someone by the name of James probably wrote the letter.


Which James was it? Acts accounts for the death of James the brother of John. James, the brother of Jesus speaks as the most prominent leader in Jerusalem. The epistle of James is full of Jewish teachings yet it is written in "clear and even somewhat elegant Koine Greek." Would Jesus' brother have written in almost perfect Greek? Was it dictated by James? Was it written in Aramaic and then translated later by a Greek writer? A variety of scenarios are possible but it is quite feasible, and even likely, that James, the brother of Jesus was responsible for the letter.


From our close look at the various men named James, the narrative of Jesus' last days takes shape with only close female relatives and friends being named at his crucifixion and burial. Moreover, there appears to be more involvement of Jesus' siblings than we may have thought. James, Judas/Jude and Solome may have been his siblings and the children of Mary as well as spiritual companions. James took on prominent leadership in Jerusalem and Jude followed and wrote a letter of his own.



[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]By J. Ann Craig and Elizabeth M. Magill[/FONT]
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#98
#98
4runner said:
You do not really believe that do ya? Is holding to your belief really that important to you? It clearly states that James was the only apostle Paul met with.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
''The New Testament indicates that James and the others listed were the uterine brothers of Jesus. James, the Lord's brother, is generally thought to be the author of the Epistle of James. Jude, another brother of Jesus, wrote a short book in which he says that he is "a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James." This last expression indicates that Jude was not as well known as James.''
[/FONT]
Excerpt[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
By Ferrell Jenkins[/FONT]
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Jude brother of James. I gotta go with him meaning that in a spiritual sense.

Luke 6

12 It was [g]at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; and [h]James and John; and Philip and Bartholomew; 15 and Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
17 Jesus came down with them a

Jude was also a name for Judas in the time.

I'm thinking it was the apostle Judas saying he was a spiritual brother of James.

I'd imagine an apostle named JUDAS would need to establish himself linked to the apostles, thus he mentions his spiritual brother, one of the 12 named James.

See it all fits.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#99
#99
4runner said:
James, the Writer of the Epistle
One is tempted to quip, "Will the REAL James, please stand up!" We do have a challenge here. Let's establish some basics. Either the epistle was written by someone named James or the writer was giving the letter authority by claiming the name of James. Given the minimal emphasis on the name and its authority, it seems like a good possibility that someone by the name of James probably wrote the letter.


Which James was it? Acts accounts for the death of James the brother of John. James, the brother of Jesus speaks as the most prominent leader in Jerusalem. The epistle of James is full of Jewish teachings yet it is written in "clear and even somewhat elegant Koine Greek." Would Jesus' brother have written in almost perfect Greek? Was it dictated by James? Was it written in Aramaic and then translated later by a Greek writer? A variety of scenarios are possible but it is quite feasible, and even likely, that James, the brother of Jesus was responsible for the letter.


From our close look at the various men named James, the narrative of Jesus' last days takes shape with only close female relatives and friends being named at his crucifixion and burial. Moreover, there appears to be more involvement of Jesus' siblings than we may have thought. James, Judas/Jude and Solome may have been his siblings and the children of Mary as well as spiritual companions. James took on prominent leadership in Jerusalem and Jude followed and wrote a letter of his own.



[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]By J. Ann Craig and Elizabeth M. Magill[/FONT]
Click to expand...
Eh there were two James in the original 12 apostles...
I think it was one of them.
 
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