THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC JEWS

[sparkman]

The Jews where keeping the Passover on the evening[start] of the 15th of Nisan.
But is this the correct day to observe the Passover?

The three Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke show that on the night Jesus
Christ was betrayed, He and His disciples prepared and kept the Passover
(Matthew 26:18,Mark 14:12, 16; Luke 22:15)

The Jews, however, kept it 24 hours later (John 18:28).

Who kept the right day? could Jesus Christ have kept the Passover on the wrong day?
Jesus Christ indeed kept the right day and that it is the Jews who today keep Passover
on the wrong day.

Lets see what happened in the past- Back to the Beginning
The first passover was God sheading blood for Adams and Eves sins
-
Leviticus 23: “These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations,
which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (verses 4-5).
Notice first that this is God’s Passover—not the Jews’—and the day it is to be kept
is the 14th, not the 15th.

the days are to begin and end at even, or sunset (see Lev 23:32; Deut 16:6; Psalm 104:19).

the Passover begins at sunset, at the beginning of the 14th.
The Jewish community observes their Passover on the 15th beginning at sunset.

Leviticus 23:6 tells us that the first day of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th.
the Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread are different and separate festivals.


Before covering the events of the Passover in the New Testament,
let’s first review the events as they occurred in the Old Testament.

-Between the Two Evenings

First of all, the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed “in the evening” (Exodus 12:6)
on the 14th day of the first month. “In the evening” is between sunset and dark.

Deuteronomy 16:6 confirms this when it says the lamb was sacrificed “at even,
at the going down of the sun.” “the time between sunset and deep twilight.”

Exodus 12:8 says the Israelites were to eat the Passover meal “in that night.” Which night?
The one mentioned in verse 6: the 14th. After that, God smote the firstborn “this night”
(verse 12). Not the next night—this night—the 14th!


That is why, in Numbers 28:16, it says, “And in the fourteenth day of the first month is
[the passover of the Lord]” (we see also Leviticus 23:5-6).

5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is [the Lord's passover].
6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread
unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Exodus 12:21-22 the Israelites were not to leave their houses until morning.
If they did, they would have died. This is why they were to burn their leftovers
the next morning (verse 10).the morning after the Passover is still the 14th
—the day portion of the 14th.

(verse 11)
11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet,
and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is [the Lord's passover].
-
Deuteronomy 16:1 says they left Egypt “by night.” Their exodus from Egypt
then had to be that following night, or the night[start] of the 15th.

This was to be a “night to be much observed” (Exodus 12:42).
This is confirmed in Numbers 33:3: “And they departed … on the fifteenth day
of the first month; on the morrow AFTER the passover .…”

the spoiling of the Egyptians (Exodus 12:33-36). This could have only taken place on the
afternoon of the 14th, just hours before [the Israelites left Egypt the night of the 15th].

-
How did the Passover get its name originally? “For the Lord will pass through to smite
the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,

the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your
houses to smite you. … That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s passover, who
passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians,
and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped” (Ex 12:23, 27

God passed over the houses that had the blood of the lamb on their doorpost.
God also passes over (forgives) our sins when we repent of them and come
under the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Passover, sacrificed for us.


Kept on the 14th Many Generations Later

When the Hebrew children would ask about this service years later, the parents were to
respond, “It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s Passover” (Exodus 12:27). this is God’s Passover,
and God said “the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (Lev 23:5).

Many generations later, the Israelites were still keeping the Passover on the 14th.

They kept the Passover on the correct day when they were in the wilderness (Numbers 9:5).
When they entered into the Promised Land, they were still all in agreement (Joshua 5:10).
King Josiah kept the Passover on the 14th (2 Chronicles 35:1). We also read in Ezra’s time
they were still keeping it on the 14th (Ezra 6:19), and this was about 519 b.c.

-
But the New Testament Jews Keep it a Day Later
the Jews were not all keeping the same day as Jesus Christ did and commanded.

“And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem” (John 2:13).
Here it is called “the Jews’ Passover”—not “the Lord’s Passover.”

The Jewish confusion most likely arose in the third century before Christ.
The Palestinian Jews were under Egyptian control from 301 to 198 b.c.

“While the Egyptians allowed the Jews to retain their ancient calendar, there was a
change made in the beginning of the day—it became common to begin the day at sunrise.
This custom was adopted, and persisted among the Jews even down to New Testament times

-
Christ Instructed Keeping Passover on 14th

Christ was killed in the afternoon[daytime] of the 14th. But Christ keep the Passover
the night portion of the 14th—that is, the night before the day Christ was crucified.

Insisting that because John mentions the Passover as occurring on the evening after
Christ’s sacrifice, that the Passover Christ kept the previous evening was just a Last Supper
or some kind of “love feast.” But Christ makes it very clear in Matthew, Mark and Luke
that the disciples were to prepare the Passover.

“Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed
to be crucified” (Matthew 26:2). Clarke’s Commentary states regarding this verse:

“This feast began on the fourteenth day of the first moon, in the first month, Nisan, and it
lasted only one day; but it was immediately followed by the days of unleavened bread, which
were seven, so that the whole lasted eight days, and all the eight days are sometimes called
the feast of the passover, and sometimes the feast or days of unleavened bread.”

these days were generally called the Passover or the feast of Unleavened Bread, meaning the
whole eight days, including the Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread. Matthew says,
“after two days is the feast of the passover.” In Mark 14:1 it says, “After two days was the
feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread.” And in Luke 22:1 it says, “Now the feast of
unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.”

All three use slightly different terminologies, but the meaning is the same.

The same is true for John 19:14. On the day Christ was crucified, John wrote that the
“preparation of the passover” was at hand. It is true that this was just before Christ died
on the afternoon of the 14th; but in verse 31, John makes it clear what this preparation was for.

“The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon
the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their
legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

At sunset, after Christ died, the “high day,” or holy day (the first day of Unleavened Bread),
began. The Jews were preparing for their passover, not “the Lord’s” (Leviticus 23:5).

Matthew 26:17-18 read: “Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples
came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is
at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.”

The Greek word for “passover” in these two verses is pascha. Strong’s Concordance
defines this word as, “the Passover, the meal, the festival.” Any lexicon verifies this definition.

Verse 19 continues, “And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready
the passover.” They made ready the Passover—same Greek word. If this event was only
referring to a final meal or last supper, certainly the word pascha would not have been inspired.


Notice Mark’s account: “And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house,
The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?”
(Mark 14:14). Same Greek word—pascha. This same word is also used in Luke 22: 15
“And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer”

Let’s again notice Matthew 26:18: “And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him,
The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.”

Those who advocate a 15th-of-Nisan Passover and say this was just some kind of final dinner
are actually saying Jesus Christ did not know what He was talking about! Jesus said,
“I will keep the Passover … with my disciples.”

This makes it plain that when Jesus gathered with His disciples the night He was betrayed
by Judas, it was indeed the Passover!

-

The next morning, after the betrayal, the Jews brought Jesus before the Sanhedrin. (John 18:28)
“Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves
went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover”

This was before [the Jews’ passover]. The holy day was to start at sunset of that evening. Remember,
the Jews did not want to kill Him on a feast day for fear of what the people might do (Matthew 26:5).

They also wanted to be sure that the bodies didnot remain on the stake during the holy day (John 19:31
Then around 3 o’clock in the afternoon on the 14th, Christ died (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34).
The Passover meal and sacrifice all occurred on the 14th of Nisan.

we read that the Jews’ Passover was at hand, that is exactly what it was—the Jews’ Passover!

prove-all, are those who don't observe the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws in sin due to their non-observance? do you believe that keeping the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws are requirements, conditions, or necessary proofs of salvation?

Easy questions..I doubt you'll answer them, though, because the answers would expose your belief system, and the veracity of my remarks.

 

[prove-all]

Originally Posted by sparkman
[In addition, they claim they will join the Godhead in the resurrection,
and be fully God, just like God the Father and Jesus Christ.

There are two Armstrongites on this site that will often comment on my threads]


-heres one thread conversation you had with John

Do you believe that Herbert Armstrong was a prophet and an apostle
in the same sense that Paul and the twelve were?
.

Johns response
Absolutely not. Herbert Armstrong was not a prophet and not an apostle...

1Co 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?
Are you not my work in the Lord?

A little bit of a stretch here but it appears that an apostle
must have seen Christ and been taught by Him face to face.

If you deny the above points, and denounce Herbert Armstrong as a false apostle
and a false prophet, I will retract my comments concerning Armstrongism.
Easy enough.

Johns response

[Uh, just so we are on even ground here, your hero, Joe Tkach use to call Herbert
Armstrong an apostle. I do not. Herbert Armstrong was just a man, he did not walk
on water and was not perfect. He was a human being just like the rest of us.

By the way, again, I ask, where have I ever quoted Herbert Armstrong? ]


-
so will you retract your recent slander comments about John
in leu of his statements listed here and elsewhere he informed you?

 

[sparkman]

The Jews where keeping the Passover on the evening[start] of the 15th of Nisan.
But is this the correct day to observe the Passover?

The three Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke show that on the night Jesus
Christ was betrayed, He and His disciples prepared and kept the Passover
(Matthew 26:18,Mark 14:12, 16; Luke 22:15)

The Jews, however, kept it 24 hours later (John 18:28).

Who kept the right day? could Jesus Christ have kept the Passover on the wrong day?
Jesus Christ indeed kept the right day and that it is the Jews who today keep Passover
on the wrong day.

Lets see what happened in the past- Back to the Beginning
The first passover was God sheading blood for Adams and Eves sins
-
Leviticus 23: “These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations,
which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (verses 4-5).
Notice first that this is God’s Passover—not the Jews’—and the day it is to be kept
is the 14th, not the 15th.

the days are to begin and end at even, or sunset (see Lev 23:32; Deut 16:6; Psalm 104:19).

the Passover begins at sunset, at the beginning of the 14th.
The Jewish community observes their Passover on the 15th beginning at sunset.

Leviticus 23:6 tells us that the first day of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th.
the Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread are different and separate festivals.


Before covering the events of the Passover in the New Testament,
let’s first review the events as they occurred in the Old Testament.

-Between the Two Evenings

First of all, the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed “in the evening” (Exodus 12:6)
on the 14th day of the first month. “In the evening” is between sunset and dark.

Deuteronomy 16:6 confirms this when it says the lamb was sacrificed “at even,
at the going down of the sun.” “the time between sunset and deep twilight.”

Exodus 12:8 says the Israelites were to eat the Passover meal “in that night.” Which night?
The one mentioned in verse 6: the 14th. After that, God smote the firstborn “this night”
(verse 12). Not the next night—this night—the 14th!


That is why, in Numbers 28:16, it says, “And in the fourteenth day of the first month is
[the passover of the Lord]” (we see also Leviticus 23:5-6).

5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is [the Lord's passover].
6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread
unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Exodus 12:21-22 the Israelites were not to leave their houses until morning.
If they did, they would have died. This is why they were to burn their leftovers
the next morning (verse 10).the morning after the Passover is still the 14th
—the day portion of the 14th.

(verse 11)
11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet,
and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is [the Lord's passover].
-
Deuteronomy 16:1 says they left Egypt “by night.” Their exodus from Egypt
then had to be that following night, or the night[start] of the 15th.

This was to be a “night to be much observed” (Exodus 12:42).
This is confirmed in Numbers 33:3: “And they departed … on the fifteenth day
of the first month; on the morrow AFTER the passover .…”

the spoiling of the Egyptians (Exodus 12:33-36). This could have only taken place on the
afternoon of the 14th, just hours before [the Israelites left Egypt the night of the 15th].

-
How did the Passover get its name originally? “For the Lord will pass through to smite
the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,

the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your
houses to smite you. … That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s passover, who
passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians,
and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped” (Ex 12:23, 27

God passed over the houses that had the blood of the lamb on their doorpost.
God also passes over (forgives) our sins when we repent of them and come
under the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Passover, sacrificed for us.


Kept on the 14th Many Generations Later

When the Hebrew children would ask about this service years later, the parents were to
respond, “It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s Passover” (Exodus 12:27). this is God’s Passover,
and God said “the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (Lev 23:5).

Many generations later, the Israelites were still keeping the Passover on the 14th.

They kept the Passover on the correct day when they were in the wilderness (Numbers 9:5).
When they entered into the Promised Land, they were still all in agreement (Joshua 5:10).
King Josiah kept the Passover on the 14th (2 Chronicles 35:1). We also read in Ezra’s time
they were still keeping it on the 14th (Ezra 6:19), and this was about 519 b.c.

-
But the New Testament Jews Keep it a Day Later
the Jews were not all keeping the same day as Jesus Christ did and commanded.

“And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem” (John 2:13).
Here it is called “the Jews’ Passover”—not “the Lord’s Passover.”

The Jewish confusion most likely arose in the third century before Christ.
The Palestinian Jews were under Egyptian control from 301 to 198 b.c.

“While the Egyptians allowed the Jews to retain their ancient calendar, there was a
change made in the beginning of the day—it became common to begin the day at sunrise.
This custom was adopted, and persisted among the Jews even down to New Testament times

-
Christ Instructed Keeping Passover on 14th

Christ was killed in the afternoon[daytime] of the 14th. But Christ keep the Passover
the night portion of the 14th—that is, the night before the day Christ was crucified.

Insisting that because John mentions the Passover as occurring on the evening after
Christ’s sacrifice, that the Passover Christ kept the previous evening was just a Last Supper
or some kind of “love feast.” But Christ makes it very clear in Matthew, Mark and Luke
that the disciples were to prepare the Passover.

“Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed
to be crucified” (Matthew 26:2). Clarke’s Commentary states regarding this verse:

“This feast began on the fourteenth day of the first moon, in the first month, Nisan, and it
lasted only one day; but it was immediately followed by the days of unleavened bread, which
were seven, so that the whole lasted eight days, and all the eight days are sometimes called
the feast of the passover, and sometimes the feast or days of unleavened bread.”

these days were generally called the Passover or the feast of Unleavened Bread, meaning the
whole eight days, including the Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread. Matthew says,
“after two days is the feast of the passover.” In Mark 14:1 it says, “After two days was the
feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread.” And in Luke 22:1 it says, “Now the feast of
unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.”

All three use slightly different terminologies, but the meaning is the same.

The same is true for John 19:14. On the day Christ was crucified, John wrote that the
“preparation of the passover” was at hand. It is true that this was just before Christ died
on the afternoon of the 14th; but in verse 31, John makes it clear what this preparation was for.

“The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon
the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their
legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

At sunset, after Christ died, the “high day,” or holy day (the first day of Unleavened Bread),
began. The Jews were preparing for their passover, not “the Lord’s” (Leviticus 23:5).

Matthew 26:17-18 read: “Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples
came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is
at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.”

The Greek word for “passover” in these two verses is pascha. Strong’s Concordance
defines this word as, “the Passover, the meal, the festival.” Any lexicon verifies this definition.

Verse 19 continues, “And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready
the passover.” They made ready the Passover—same Greek word. If this event was only
referring to a final meal or last supper, certainly the word pascha would not have been inspired.


Notice Mark’s account: “And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house,
The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?”
(Mark 14:14). Same Greek word—pascha. This same word is also used in Luke 22: 15
“And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer”

Let’s again notice Matthew 26:18: “And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him,
The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.”

Those who advocate a 15th-of-Nisan Passover and say this was just some kind of final dinner
are actually saying Jesus Christ did not know what He was talking about! Jesus said,
“I will keep the Passover … with my disciples.”

This makes it plain that when Jesus gathered with His disciples the night He was betrayed
by Judas, it was indeed the Passover!

-

The next morning, after the betrayal, the Jews brought Jesus before the Sanhedrin. (John 18:28)
“Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves
went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover”

This was before [the Jews’ passover]. The holy day was to start at sunset of that evening. Remember,
the Jews did not want to kill Him on a feast day for fear of what the people might do (Matthew 26:5).

They also wanted to be sure that the bodies didnot remain on the stake during the holy day (John 19:31
Then around 3 o’clock in the afternoon on the 14th, Christ died (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34).
The Passover meal and sacrifice all occurred on the 14th of Nisan.

we read that the Jews’ Passover was at hand, that is exactly what it was—the Jews’ Passover!

Your remarks are a bunch of baloney.

You totally ignore that John also called the Feast of Booths "the Jews' Feasts of Booths".

John 7:2 Now the Jews’ Feast of Booths was at hand.

Feast of Booths is Feast of Tabernacles.

So, if you are attempting to say that the Jews observed Passover on a different day, even if it was true, it doesn't explain John's remark about the Feast of Booths unless you are going to claim that they were also observing it on the wrong day.

How do you explain that?

The Jews held Passover at the EXACT RIGHT TIME as Christ was being crucified at the same time that the lambs were being sacrificed by the Jews in the Temple...Jesus is the Lamb of God that the Passover lambs symbolized. To claim otherwise is to claim that his sacrifice didn't occur by God's timetable.

Why did Jesus observe the Passover the day beforehand? There are a few different explanations in this regard, but I am not going to delve into them, because I'm not going to entertain your argument. My response to you is 1) your explanation doesn't make sense of the Feast of Booths being a "Feast of the Jews" and 2) if you are right, Jesus wasn't sacrificed at the same time that the lambs were sacrificed, which means God was off on his timetable..and that DIDN'T HAPPEN.

This is another example of Herbert Armstrong's shoddy explanations.

 

[prove-all]

2017
First Day of Sacred Year Mar. 28- not by mans solar calander.

Psalms 104:19 (KJV)

He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

​

*Passover Apr. 10
Days of ULB Apr. 11-17

*Feast of Tabernacles Oct. 5-11

*Begins Evening Before by Gods Sabbaths

But yes the Jews today keep both convocations late incorectly.


Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.​

 

[sparkman]

The Jews where keeping the Passover on the evening[start] of the 15th of Nisan.
But is this the correct day to observe the Passover?

The three Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke show that on the night Jesus
Christ was betrayed, He and His disciples prepared and kept the Passover
(Matthew 26:18,Mark 14:12, 16; Luke 22:15)

The Jews, however, kept it 24 hours later (John 18:28).

Who kept the right day? could Jesus Christ have kept the Passover on the wrong day?
Jesus Christ indeed kept the right day and that it is the Jews who today keep Passover
on the wrong day.

Lets see what happened in the past- Back to the Beginning
The first passover was God sheading blood for Adams and Eves sins
-
Leviticus 23: “These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations,
which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (verses 4-5).
Notice first that this is God’s Passover—not the Jews’—and the day it is to be kept
is the 14th, not the 15th.

the days are to begin and end at even, or sunset (see Lev 23:32; Deut 16:6; Psalm 104:19).

the Passover begins at sunset, at the beginning of the 14th.
The Jewish community observes their Passover on the 15th beginning at sunset.

Leviticus 23:6 tells us that the first day of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th.
the Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread are different and separate festivals.


Before covering the events of the Passover in the New Testament,
let’s first review the events as they occurred in the Old Testament.

-Between the Two Evenings

First of all, the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed “in the evening” (Exodus 12:6)
on the 14th day of the first month. “In the evening” is between sunset and dark.

Deuteronomy 16:6 confirms this when it says the lamb was sacrificed “at even,
at the going down of the sun.” “the time between sunset and deep twilight.”

Exodus 12:8 says the Israelites were to eat the Passover meal “in that night.” Which night?
The one mentioned in verse 6: the 14th. After that, God smote the firstborn “this night”
(verse 12). Not the next night—this night—the 14th!


That is why, in Numbers 28:16, it says, “And in the fourteenth day of the first month is
[the passover of the Lord]” (we see also Leviticus 23:5-6).

5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is [the Lord's passover].
6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread
unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Exodus 12:21-22 the Israelites were not to leave their houses until morning.
If they did, they would have died. This is why they were to burn their leftovers
the next morning (verse 10).the morning after the Passover is still the 14th
—the day portion of the 14th.

(verse 11)
11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet,
and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is [the Lord's passover].
-
Deuteronomy 16:1 says they left Egypt “by night.” Their exodus from Egypt
then had to be that following night, or the night[start] of the 15th.

This was to be a “night to be much observed” (Exodus 12:42).
This is confirmed in Numbers 33:3: “And they departed … on the fifteenth day
of the first month; on the morrow AFTER the passover .…”

the spoiling of the Egyptians (Exodus 12:33-36). This could have only taken place on the
afternoon of the 14th, just hours before [the Israelites left Egypt the night of the 15th].

-
How did the Passover get its name originally? “For the Lord will pass through to smite
the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts,

the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your
houses to smite you. … That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s passover, who
passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians,
and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped” (Ex 12:23, 27

God passed over the houses that had the blood of the lamb on their doorpost.
God also passes over (forgives) our sins when we repent of them and come
under the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Passover, sacrificed for us.


Kept on the 14th Many Generations Later

When the Hebrew children would ask about this service years later, the parents were to
respond, “It is the sacrifice of the Lord’s Passover” (Exodus 12:27). this is God’s Passover,
and God said “the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover” (Lev 23:5).

Many generations later, the Israelites were still keeping the Passover on the 14th.

They kept the Passover on the correct day when they were in the wilderness (Numbers 9:5).
When they entered into the Promised Land, they were still all in agreement (Joshua 5:10).
King Josiah kept the Passover on the 14th (2 Chronicles 35:1). We also read in Ezra’s time
they were still keeping it on the 14th (Ezra 6:19), and this was about 519 b.c.

-
But the New Testament Jews Keep it a Day Later
the Jews were not all keeping the same day as Jesus Christ did and commanded.

“And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem” (John 2:13).
Here it is called “the Jews’ Passover”—not “the Lord’s Passover.”

The Jewish confusion most likely arose in the third century before Christ.
The Palestinian Jews were under Egyptian control from 301 to 198 b.c.

“While the Egyptians allowed the Jews to retain their ancient calendar, there was a
change made in the beginning of the day—it became common to begin the day at sunrise.
This custom was adopted, and persisted among the Jews even down to New Testament times

-
Christ Instructed Keeping Passover on 14th

Christ was killed in the afternoon[daytime] of the 14th. But Christ keep the Passover
the night portion of the 14th—that is, the night before the day Christ was crucified.

Insisting that because John mentions the Passover as occurring on the evening after
Christ’s sacrifice, that the Passover Christ kept the previous evening was just a Last Supper
or some kind of “love feast.” But Christ makes it very clear in Matthew, Mark and Luke
that the disciples were to prepare the Passover.

“Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed
to be crucified” (Matthew 26:2). Clarke’s Commentary states regarding this verse:

“This feast began on the fourteenth day of the first moon, in the first month, Nisan, and it
lasted only one day; but it was immediately followed by the days of unleavened bread, which
were seven, so that the whole lasted eight days, and all the eight days are sometimes called
the feast of the passover, and sometimes the feast or days of unleavened bread.”

these days were generally called the Passover or the feast of Unleavened Bread, meaning the
whole eight days, including the Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread. Matthew says,
“after two days is the feast of the passover.” In Mark 14:1 it says, “After two days was the
feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread.” And in Luke 22:1 it says, “Now the feast of
unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.”

All three use slightly different terminologies, but the meaning is the same.

The same is true for John 19:14. On the day Christ was crucified, John wrote that the
“preparation of the passover” was at hand. It is true that this was just before Christ died
on the afternoon of the 14th; but in verse 31, John makes it clear what this preparation was for.

“The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon
the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their
legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

At sunset, after Christ died, the “high day,” or holy day (the first day of Unleavened Bread),
began. The Jews were preparing for their passover, not “the Lord’s” (Leviticus 23:5).

Matthew 26:17-18 read: “Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples
came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is
at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.”

The Greek word for “passover” in these two verses is pascha. Strong’s Concordance
defines this word as, “the Passover, the meal, the festival.” Any lexicon verifies this definition.

Verse 19 continues, “And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready
the passover.” They made ready the Passover—same Greek word. If this event was only
referring to a final meal or last supper, certainly the word pascha would not have been inspired.


Notice Mark’s account: “And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house,
The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?”
(Mark 14:14). Same Greek word—pascha. This same word is also used in Luke 22: 15
“And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer”

Let’s again notice Matthew 26:18: “And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him,
The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.”

Those who advocate a 15th-of-Nisan Passover and say this was just some kind of final dinner
are actually saying Jesus Christ did not know what He was talking about! Jesus said,
“I will keep the Passover … with my disciples.”

This makes it plain that when Jesus gathered with His disciples the night He was betrayed
by Judas, it was indeed the Passover!

-

The next morning, after the betrayal, the Jews brought Jesus before the Sanhedrin. (John 18:28)
“Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves
went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover”

This was before [the Jews’ passover]. The holy day was to start at sunset of that evening. Remember,
the Jews did not want to kill Him on a feast day for fear of what the people might do (Matthew 26:5).

They also wanted to be sure that the bodies didnot remain on the stake during the holy day (John 19:31
Then around 3 o’clock in the afternoon on the 14th, Christ died (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34).
The Passover meal and sacrifice all occurred on the 14th of Nisan.

we read that the Jews’ Passover was at hand, that is exactly what it was—the Jews’ Passover!

prove-all cut and pasted this from an Armstrongite website yet claims not to be an Armstrongite:

https://www.thetrumpet.com/4830-when-was-the-lord-s-passover

The Trumpet is a magazine related to Philadelphia Church of God, an Armstrongite splinter group that teaches the same things. There's about 150 different groups associated with Armstrongism nowadays, of varying sizes. Philadelphia Church of God is one of the biggest of these groups.

 

[prove-all]

You forget God ordained Passover and days of unleavened bread as [a memoral]
forever. before one word of the old covenent was even spoken.

 

[sparkman]

You forget God ordained Passover and days of unleavened bread as [a memoral] forever.
before one word of the old covenent was even spoken.

The issue with this view is that he was in the process of liberating Israel from Egypt, and so this was all part of the same events.

Jesus also instituted the Lord's Supper prior to the New Covenant, which was inaugurated at the Cross. So, he instituted a portion of the New Covenant prior to the actual beginning of the New Covenant.

And, if you want to use that logic, none of the other festivals are applicable because they weren't instituted prior to the Mosaic Covenant.

 

[prove-all]

prove-all cut and pasted this from an Armstrongite
website yet claims not to be an Armstrongite:
.

I love this website for up to date world events
https://www.facebook.com/PhiladelphiaTrumpet


Germany’s Quiet Sundays’
For Germans, whether religious or otherwise, Sunday is a sacred day of rest.
That’s what the Wall Street Journal said in its Life & Style section on March 23.

“Germany holds to much the same Monday-to-Friday workweek rhythm as the rest
of the world, but on Sundays it skips a beat,” wrote Frankfurt-based assistant news
editor Sarah Sloat in her article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/from-th...sundays-1427151283?KEYWORDS=German+and+Sunday

She continues:

This uber-efficient country, which puts more restrictions on Sunday activities
than nearly all of its neighbors, nearly shuts down. …

Opening Sundays to shopping is fiercely resisted .… Efforts by retailers and businesses
to loosen the rules have also been unsuccessful. But a blanket prohibition was lifted in 2006,
when states were allowed to designate a certain number of Sundays as open for shopping.
In Hesse, where Frankfurt is located, four are permitted each year.

So normal labor and commerce are tightly restricted on Sundays. But what if residents
want to spend their Sunday doing yard work around their homes? Sloat answers this:

Laws regulating shopping hours and noise levels mean stores shut, lawnmowers fall silent,
and woe unto him who flips the switch on an electric tool. … Sonntagsruhe is one term
they use. It simply means “Sunday rest.”

Anyone considering undertaking outdoor chores or home improvements will be in
for a surprise. Regulations limit noise levels, forbidding the use of electric tools
like drills and leaf blowers, as well as hammering, sawing and loud music.

At recycling containers, it’s even prohibited to throw away glass jars and bottles
on Sunday because of the noise. Heavy trucks are banned from German roads on Sunday
… to relieve streets and cities of noise and traffic, and to give drivers a break.

The wsj article makes only a passing and vague mention of the influence of “churches”
on Germany’s reverence for Sundays. But there is one specific church which lies at
the very heart of why Germany “skips a beat” on Sundays: Roman Catholicism.

the Brussels-based European Sunday Alliance, a network of dozens of religious
and nonreligious organizations from 27 European nations whose purpose,
according to its website, is to “raise awareness of the unique value of synchronized
free time for our European societies.”

At the helm of these crusaders for Sunday rest is the Roman Catholic Church.

On March 3, the European Sunday Alliance met in Brussels with politicians from
all around the European Union for a “Call for Action” about banning Sunday work.
European Sunday Alliance - New supporter!

The press release for the meeting says:

Stop Sunday Work Now! … Europe is not only an economic but also a social and
cultural community. … The “economization” of Sundays and public holidays
deepens social divisions at the expense of workers and their families.

The common weekly day of rest is a clear and visible sign for the reconciliation
of personal, family and professional life. … We need a Europe-wide Sunday protection.
[T]he European Sunday Alliance draws attention to Sunday as the common weekly day
of rest which enables EU citizens to live their citizenship together.

Why does this Sunday alliance exist and work so arduously to influence Europe’s
labor laws? Why is the Catholic Church so adamant about instituting a Continent-wide
day of rest? And why must it be Sunday instead of another day of the week?

In large part, it is because it was the Catholic Church—in intentional violation
of biblical teachings—that appointed Sunday as a day of rest and worship.

The Vatican is proud of the success it had in this colossal feat, and Sunday rest
has become a mark of the Catholic Church’s authority.



This truth is best explained by the Vatican’s own:

¦“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. … From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first” (Catholic Press, August 1900).

¦“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. … And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things” (letter from the office of Cardinal Gibbons, Nov. 11, 1895).

¦“The church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third—Protestant Fourth—Commandment of God” (The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923).

¦“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) [or “Sunday”] was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the church’s sense of its own power. … People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically … keep Saturday holy” (Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995).

The March meeting, and the European Sunday Alliance’s ongoing efforts are bringing the Vatican-influenced EU closer to declaring Sunday as the official Continent-wide day of rest. Any steps in that direction should alarm religious liberty watchers, those concerned about a failure to separate church and state, and anyone familiar with Catholicism’s violent history.

 

[sparkman]

2017
First Day of Sacred Year Mar. 28- not by mans solar calander.

Psalms 104:19 (KJV)

He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

​

*Passover Apr. 10
Days of ULB Apr. 11-17

*Feast of Tabernacles Oct. 5-11

*Begins Evening Before by Gods Sabbaths

But yes the Jews today keep both convocations late incorectly.


Isaiah 66:23 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.​

LOL..your explanations are really bad. Claiming that you and the Armstrongites have the "truth" and the Jews didn't even know their own festival dates is ridiculous.

And, why don't Armstrongites observe new moons if the same Scriptures mention new moons along with Sabbaths? I asked my Armstrongite pastor the same question..he had no response.

prove-all, I really don't want to argue back and forth with you. If you're not a Judaizer who claims that others are in sin for non-observance, and that keeping the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws are not requirements, conditions, or necessary fruits of salvation, they why don't you simply say that you don't believe others are in sin for non-observance, and just drop it? If you aren't claiming this, the thread doesn't apply to you anyways.



They are mentioned both in Colossians 2:16-17 and Isaiah 66:23.

 

[prove-all]

And, if you want to use that logic, none of the other festivals are applicable
because they weren't instituted prior to the Mosaic Covenant.

I will go by the bible , in the new test. where it says to keep Passover abservence on the start 14th
[and ] the feast on the first day of unleavened bread - the night to be most remembered 15.

 

[prove-all]

And, why don't Armstrongites observe new moons if the same Scriptures mention
new moons along with Sabbaths? I asked my Armstrongite pastor the same question.
.he had no response.
.

I answered this question before for you.

To observe means You have to know when the new year started, to use it.
this is called Gods calander figured by the moon.

To even know when to keep any of His Holy convocations.
Jesus and the apostles after Christ followed Gods calander.

there was also a point where there was sacrifices required ever day of the year.
but God only wanted them to [obey ] Him and keep his statues.

Now lets discuss who and why
the calander was changed to sun calactions and not the moon.

In the future we will run on a lunar calander again,
back to the way it was suposed to be, before changed to heathen origan.

 

[sparkman]

I love this website for up to date world events
https://www.facebook.com/PhiladelphiaTrumpet


Germany’s Quiet Sundays’
For Germans, whether religious or otherwise, Sunday is a sacred day of rest.
That’s what the Wall Street Journal said in its Life & Style section on March 23.

“Germany holds to much the same Monday-to-Friday workweek rhythm as the rest
of the world, but on Sundays it skips a beat,” wrote Frankfurt-based assistant news
editor Sarah Sloat in her article
http://www.wsj.com/articles/from-th...sundays-1427151283?KEYWORDS=German+and+Sunday

She continues:

This uber-efficient country, which puts more restrictions on Sunday activities
than nearly all of its neighbors, nearly shuts down. …

Opening Sundays to shopping is fiercely resisted .… Efforts by retailers and businesses
to loosen the rules have also been unsuccessful. But a blanket prohibition was lifted in 2006,
when states were allowed to designate a certain number of Sundays as open for shopping.
In Hesse, where Frankfurt is located, four are permitted each year.

So normal labor and commerce are tightly restricted on Sundays. But what if residents
want to spend their Sunday doing yard work around their homes? Sloat answers this:

Laws regulating shopping hours and noise levels mean stores shut, lawnmowers fall silent,
and woe unto him who flips the switch on an electric tool. … Sonntagsruhe is one term
they use. It simply means “Sunday rest.”

Anyone considering undertaking outdoor chores or home improvements will be in
for a surprise. Regulations limit noise levels, forbidding the use of electric tools
like drills and leaf blowers, as well as hammering, sawing and loud music.

At recycling containers, it’s even prohibited to throw away glass jars and bottles
on Sunday because of the noise. Heavy trucks are banned from German roads on Sunday
… to relieve streets and cities of noise and traffic, and to give drivers a break.

The wsj article makes only a passing and vague mention of the influence of “churches”
on Germany’s reverence for Sundays. But there is one specific church which lies at
the very heart of why Germany “skips a beat” on Sundays: Roman Catholicism.

the Brussels-based European Sunday Alliance, a network of dozens of religious
and nonreligious organizations from 27 European nations whose purpose,
according to its website, is to “raise awareness of the unique value of synchronized
free time for our European societies.”

At the helm of these crusaders for Sunday rest is the Roman Catholic Church.

On March 3, the European Sunday Alliance met in Brussels with politicians from
all around the European Union for a “Call for Action” about banning Sunday work.
European Sunday Alliance - New supporter!

The press release for the meeting says:

Stop Sunday Work Now! … Europe is not only an economic but also a social and
cultural community. … The “economization” of Sundays and public holidays
deepens social divisions at the expense of workers and their families.

The common weekly day of rest is a clear and visible sign for the reconciliation
of personal, family and professional life. … We need a Europe-wide Sunday protection.
[T]he European Sunday Alliance draws attention to Sunday as the common weekly day
of rest which enables EU citizens to live their citizenship together.

Why does this Sunday alliance exist and work so arduously to influence Europe’s
labor laws? Why is the Catholic Church so adamant about instituting a Continent-wide
day of rest? And why must it be Sunday instead of another day of the week?

In large part, it is because it was the Catholic Church—in intentional violation
of biblical teachings—that appointed Sunday as a day of rest and worship.

The Vatican is proud of the success it had in this colossal feat, and Sunday rest
has become a mark of the Catholic Church’s authority.



This truth is best explained by the Vatican’s own:

¦“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. … From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first” (Catholic Press, August 1900).

¦“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. … And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things” (letter from the office of Cardinal Gibbons, Nov. 11, 1895).

¦“The church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third—Protestant Fourth—Commandment of God” (The Catholic Record, Sept. 1, 1923).

¦“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) [or “Sunday”] was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the church’s sense of its own power. … People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically … keep Saturday holy” (Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, May 21, 1995).

The March meeting, and the European Sunday Alliance’s ongoing efforts are bringing the Vatican-influenced EU closer to declaring Sunday as the official Continent-wide day of rest. Any steps in that direction should alarm religious liberty watchers, those concerned about a failure to separate church and state, and anyone familiar with Catholicism’s violent history.

Note that none of these quotes are from authoritative source materials such as rulings of Councils or Catechisms of the Roman Catholic Church.

Additionally, note that the Roman Catholic Church has made many claims that are not true, yet Armstrongites would not believe these claims. Why do they believe the Roman Catholic Church when it says that it changed the Sabbath to Sunday, or any official from the Roman Catholic church on this issue? Do they give equal credibility to Rome's claims concerning the Papacy and how Peter was the first Pope?

Part of the Armstrongite fairy tale is that the Roman Catholic Church changed the Sabbath...it is well documented that the vast majority of Jewish Christians were not observing the Sabbath by AD140. Samuele Bacchiocchi, a SDA scholar who has researched this topic thoroughly, agrees that this is true. This is 200 years before Constantine and 400 years before Rome even had a pope of any type. The Roman bishopric wasn't even the Roman Catholic Church then..it was a mere bishopric with no power to do this sort of thing.

Armstrongites have published books with titles similar to the "History of the True Church" claiming a line of Sabbathkeepers from the apostolic era until the current day, claiming that this line of Sabbathkeepers was the "true church" and that Christians are basically a false, counterfeit church teaching a false gospel, and associating it with the Roman Catholic Church. A similar view is maintained by some other Sabbathkeeping groups. In essence, their view of church history is a massive conspiracy theory that views themselves as the possessors of the "true faith" and views Christians as the descendants of the Roman Catholic Church. They relate this to Revelation 17 and the "Whore of Babylon", claiming, in essence, that Roman Catholicism, and Protestant Christianity by extension, worships Nimrod and his alleged wife, Semiramis, and their child Tammuz, in a false religion they call the Babylonian Mystery Religion. Their view is related to Alexander Hislop's book, "Two Babylons". Many Sabbathkeepers follow a similar line of thinking, and view of church history...viewing themselves as the true church and others as being a false, satanically led church.

If someone is interested in clarifications of the rants that prove-all is presenting, I'd be glad to address you one on one, but I tired of responding to him. He will simply keep posting as long as I entertain him. He cuts and pastes nonsense from cultic Armstrongite websites in order to maintain his views, and I don't have all day to respond to his nonsense. I am going to ignore him so don't confuse my silence with acceding to his views.

 

[sparkman]

I answered this question before for you.

To observe means You have to know when the new year started, to use it.
this is called Gods calander figured by the moon.

To even know when to keep any of His Holy convocations.
Jesus and the apostles after Christ followed Gods calander.

there was also a point where there was sacrifices required ever day of the year.
but God only wanted them to [obey ] Him and keep his statues.

Now lets discuss who and why
the calander was changed to sun calactions and not the moon.

In the future we will run on a lunar calander again,
back to the way it was suposed to be, before changed to heathen origan.

If you knew a little about calendars, you'd realize the lunar calendar had its limitations. Each year, the Hebrew calendar was off by about 5 days a year. This is because there were 12 months of 30 days, and the solar calendar year is 365.25 days long.

Sooner or later, the harvests would not be happening at the right times for the festivals, as the festivals were related to the agricultural year. So, the priests would add a month ARBITRARILY in order to make sure that the harvests were in line with the festivals. There was no mechanism for this in the Mosaic Covenant, but it was NECESSARY in order to keep the calendar in line with the harvests. This is a shortcoming of a lunar system.

So, you don't even know whether you're observing festivals on the right day due to this. A month was added arbitrarily, at the priest's discretion, and not according to some defined method.

Moving to the solar calendar minimized this sort of extreme error. But, try explaining this to an Armstrongite..he probably doesn't even know that an extra month was added arbitrarily by the priests...nor does he know that the harvests had to line up with the festival observances. Some Hebrew Roots types have an understanding of this, though. Know-it-all Armstrongites don't.

 

[prove-all]

What is a “Time”? For it is basic to several key prophecies.
a prophetic “time” is a 360-day year? Why not a year of 3651/4 days?
Why not a solar year?

In ancient biblical times, a year was figured on a basis of twelve 30-day months.
Previous to the time, in Moses’s day, when God gave His people the sacred calendar,
the 30-day month was used.

Notice Genesis 7:11: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month,
the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep
broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” Now verse 24: “And the waters
prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.”

Next, Genesis 8:3-4: “And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and
after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. And the ark rested
in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.”

So notice—the flood started on the 17th day of the second month. At the end of 150 days,
the ark rested on Mount Ararat, on the 17th day of the 7th month. That was five months
to the day. Five 30-day months are precisely 150 days. So months, then, were 30-day months!

We find it definitely figured this way in both Daniel and Revelation. In Revelation 12:6,
a prophecy of an event which in actual history did last 1,260 solar years is spoken of as

“a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” So here, again, a prophetic day was
a year in fulfillment. In Revelation 13:5 (referring to a different event but the same amount of time) this same period of 1,260 days being fulfilled in 1,260 solar years is spoken of as “forty and two months.”

Now 42 calendar months, according to the calendar now in use, would not be 1,260 days, but 1,276 days—and, if a leap year occurred, 1,277. Or, if the extra half-year happened to be the last half of the year, it would be 1,280 or 1,281 days.
But the 42 months of Revelation 13:5 is the same amount of time as the 1,260 days
of Revelation 12:6. So the 42 months were 30-day months.

The same amount of days is spoken of in still different language in Revelation 12:14
as “a time, and times, and half a time.” The “time” is one prophetic year; the “times”
is two more prophetic years; and the whole expression is 31/2 prophetic “times,”
which is a literal 1,260 days—or 31/2 years of 30-day months. Seven of these “times”
then would be 2,520 days—and on a day-for-a-year basis, 2,520 years!

Then in Daniel 12:7 the same expression “time, times, and an half [time]” is mentioned.

A prophetic “time,” then, is a 360-day year—or a plain 360 days.

 

[sparkman]

I answered this question before for you.

To observe means You have to know when the new year started, to use it.
this is called Gods calander figured by the moon.

To even know when to keep any of His Holy convocations.
Jesus and the apostles after Christ followed Gods calander.

there was also a point where there was sacrifices required ever day of the year.
but God only wanted them to [obey ] Him and keep his statues.

Now lets discuss who and why
the calander was changed to sun calactions and not the moon.

In the future we will run on a lunar calander again,
back to the way it was suposed to be, before changed to heathen origan.

Sabbaths, festivals, new moons, offerings..all part of the Mosaic Covenant which is no longer in effect. I explained that earlier in the thread.

What gives you the license to claim that part of the Mosaic Covenant applies, and part does not? I gave Scriptures indicating that the Mosaic Covenant requires that one observe ALL of the commandments, not part of them. You are picking and choosing which commandments need to be observed, and which do not. What basis are you using for making that decision?
Are you consistent with that basis?

If New Moons are mentioned in the same context as verses about the Sabbath that you are attempting to use to prove your case, then you cannot claim one is valid, yet not the other one. Besides, the ENTIRE MOSAIC COVENANT is no longer in effect. That's the elephant in the room. Read Hebrews 7 and 8, Acts 15, Galatians 3 and 4, Romans 7:1-7, Ephesians 2:13-15.

By the way, Scripture also says that animal sacrifices will be offered in the Millennium. Why aren't you offering them today? If future applicability means they are applicable today, which you claim in regards to the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws, why do you claim that animal sacrifices are inapplicable today? I agree that they are inapplicable today, but what basis are you using, since if you apply the same logic as you apply to Sabbath and New Moons, you would need to offer animal sacrifices too. You may indicate that the Temple is no longer there, but Abraham offered animal sacrifices himself prior to the Mosaic Covenant, so you could offer them on your own altar.

The entire Armstrongite belief system is incoherent and applies inconsistent reasoning. Like I said, though, I'm not going to address you. I will simply state for the benefit of those on the thread that they see a fine illustration of the mentality I'm discussing from prove-all.

 

[prove-all]

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
The seventh day Sabbath will be Belssed forever.
And God is the same yesterday, today and forever.


And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.


covents

-the really pretty covent.
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that
I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature.
this covenent is not done away because of a new covenent.

-In the wilderness before mount sinia

Exodus 16:4
4Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you;
and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day,
that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
“How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?(27-30)

-This incident happened prior to the giving of the Ten Commandments.
a gift: “See, for that the [Eternal]hath given you the sabbath …”

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

-the ten commandents covenent exodus20-24

19:8And all the people answered together, and said,
All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.
1And God spake all these words, saying,.....

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:
11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,
and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

-You read of the actual making of the Old Covenant,
and sealing it with blood, in (Exodus 24:4-8).

And notice it concludes with the words,
“the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you ….”

to the Ten Commandment law, God added no more (Deuteronomy 5:22).
-It was then already made..., completed..., done deal, in force.

22These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: [and he added no more].
And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

-Any other law, or covenant,coming later, is no part of it,
but a separate law or covenant. Paul tells us

“Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed,
no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto” (Galatians 3:15)

-Once a covenant is signed, sealed, or ratified,
confirmed—in force,it cannot be added to or taken away from.
The Ten Commandments law was complete, God added no more or taken away..

-

But the Sabbath covenent and Holy days covenents
are seperate from the ten commandments.

-the sabbath covenant
a seperate covenent apart from the ten commandents
and is a forever binding covent between his chosen people.

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep:
for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations;
that (ye may know) that I am the Lord that doth (sanctify you).

16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, (to observe)
(the sabbath) throughout their generations, for (a perpetual) (covenant).

17“It is (a sign) between me and the children of Israel (for ever):
for in six days the [Eternal] made heaven and earth, and on
the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed” similar to Exodus 20:11.


Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout
your generations that ye may know that I am the [Eternal] that doth sanctify you”

“Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I am the [Eternal] that sanctify them.

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my
statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them;
and my sabbaths they greatly polluted:then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them
in the wilderness, to consume them”(Ezekiel 20:12-13).

"which if [a man do] , he [God] shall even [live in] them;

“If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day;
and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the [Eternal],honourable;

and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways,nor finding thine own pleasure,
nor speaking thine own words”(Isaiah 58:13)


“Then shalt thou delight thyself in the [Eternal];
and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth,

and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father:
for the mouth of the [Eternal] hath spoken it”

Which the Lord commanded to be given them of the children of Israel,
in the day that he anointed them, by a statute for ever throughout their generations.

Thy name, O Lord, endureth for ever; and thy memorial,
O Lord, throughout all generations.

-
And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they
may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely
be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.


21And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see
my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God
from that day and forward.

21In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth,
and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them;
and they shall know that I am the Lord.

33And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,)
then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

 

[sparkman]

What is a “Time”? For it is basic to several key prophecies.
a prophetic “time” is a 360-day year? Why not a year of 3651/4 days?
Why not a solar year?

In ancient biblical times, a year was figured on a basis of twelve 30-day months.
Previous to the time, in Moses’s day, when God gave His people the sacred calendar,
the 30-day month was used.

Notice Genesis 7:11: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month,
the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep
broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” Now verse 24: “And the waters
prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.”

Next, Genesis 8:3-4: “And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and
after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. And the ark rested
in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.”

So notice—the flood started on the 17th day of the second month. At the end of 150 days,
the ark rested on Mount Ararat, on the 17th day of the 7th month. That was five months
to the day. Five 30-day months are precisely 150 days. So months, then, were 30-day months!

We find it definitely figured this way in both Daniel and Revelation. In Revelation 12:6,
a prophecy of an event which in actual history did last 1,260 solar years is spoken of as

“a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” So here, again, a prophetic day was
a year in fulfillment. In Revelation 13:5 (referring to a different event but the same amount of time) this same period of 1,260 days being fulfilled in 1,260 solar years is spoken of as “forty and two months.”

Now 42 calendar months, according to the calendar now in use, would not be 1,260 days, but 1,276 days—and, if a leap year occurred, 1,277. Or, if the extra half-year happened to be the last half of the year, it would be 1,280 or 1,281 days.
But the 42 months of Revelation 13:5 is the same amount of time as the 1,260 days
of Revelation 12:6. So the 42 months were 30-day months.

The same amount of days is spoken of in still different language in Revelation 12:14
as “a time, and times, and half a time.” The “time” is one prophetic year; the “times”
is two more prophetic years; and the whole expression is 31/2 prophetic “times,”
which is a literal 1,260 days—or 31/2 years of 30-day months. Seven of these “times”
then would be 2,520 days—and on a day-for-a-year basis, 2,520 years!

Then in Daniel 12:7 the same expression “time, times, and an half [time]” is mentioned.

A prophetic “time,” then, is a 360-day year—or a plain 360 days.

All these remarks don't address my assertion..the lunar calendar year had limitations due to the difference between it and a solar year, and the festivals fell short of the harvest times, thus requiring the priests to "true it up" by adding a month arbitrarily. Therefore one can't really be sure whether the calendar is precisely on target now, and that Armstrongites or any other group observes the festivals on the right day according to the lunar calendar. Months have been added arbitrarily by priests to keep the calendar in rough alignment with festivals.

 

[sparkman]

It would be a full time job responding to prove-all. I am not going to address him any further. He's on my ignore list.

 

[prove-all]

the church claimed we had "the truth" and that we were going
to be priests and kings in the Millennium, and ultimately a God being.

-mabe they read it in the bible here,

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
or here in Revelation 1:6, hope you are there too.

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that,
when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

-kings and priests to replace Satan and his demons in ruling over this earth.

For Satan is now the "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is now
the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons
of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2). and the "father" of lies (John 8:44),

As well, there is a faulty view of church history,

-Paul taught the church was going to become corrupt also.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn
every one night and day with tears.
-"counterfeit Christianity"! The Apostles knew this was going to happen. Paul warned:

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of Christ's return] will not come unless
the falling away [from the Truth] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.…

For the mystery of lawlessness is [already] at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He
is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with
the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7–8)

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation
has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is
no great thing if his ministersalso be transformed as the ministers of righteousness …”

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains,
on which the woman sitteth.-----------do you know what the woman here means?



17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart
is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men"

 

[Grace777x70]

Re: THE FOLLIES AND FALSE TEACHINGS OF JUDAIZERS LIKE HEBREW ROOT MOVEMENT/MESSIANIC

Is it a sin to not observe the Sabbath as laid out in the Law of Moses?

Let's get that answered first.