THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[john832]

What doe's law have on the blood?

What is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And what does sin require?

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Sin requires blood.

The are inseparably related.

 

[Mitspa]

What is the strength of sin according to Gods Word? The law...the Ten commandments produces sinful lust in the flesh...so the solution to sin is not the law of Moses...Its the finished Work of Jesus Christ....

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

[kennethcadwell]

A lot of scriptures quoted here, but I see you misunderstand them, quoting them out of context, and even misusing them on issues that are not relevant to your point.

Consider also the fact that you judge righteousness by deeds of the law.

Whilst you distort scripture in the hope to falsely argue that Paul preached in favor of works of the law, the gospel contradicts you.

I never said Paul preached in favor of works of the mosaic law.
What Paul taught was that by out of love for the Lord you will keep and uphold His commandments as you are walking in the Spirit. If you are not upholding His commandments out of love for Him then you are not in the Spirit, you are walking carnal minded.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What is the strength of sin according to Gods Word? The law...the Ten commandments produces sinful lust in the flesh...so the solution to sin is not the law of Moses...Its the finished Work of Jesus Christ....

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

The law still convicts the person if they are walking in unrepented or confessed sins.
The difference is that you will not have to face the punishments of the mosaic laws ordinances, but you will be in danger of facing judgment and a fiery indignation.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

 

[Mitspa]

The law still convicts the person if they are walking in unrepented or confessed sins.
The difference is that you will not have to face the punishments of the mosaic laws ordinances, but you will be in danger of facing judgment and a fiery indignation.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Well if their under law...no wonder they are walking in sin....because the strength of sin is the law....of course all who are under the law are in a condition of bondage to sin....Its the grace of God that teaches Godliness....Not the law....All the law is doing is taking you and others around the same mountain in the wilderness of sin...again and again....

 

[kennethcadwell]

[h=1]Ephesians 4:17-19[/h][h=3]The New Man[/h]17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[a] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


[h=1]Ephesians 4:25-32[/h][h=3]Do Not Grieve the Spirit[/h]25 Therefore, putting away lying, (9th Commandment) “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”[a] for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”:[b] do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil.28 Let him who stole steal no longer (8th Commandment), but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. (Matthew 6:14-15)


[h=1]Ephesians 5:3-5[/h]
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness (10th Commandment), let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


[h=1]Colossians 3:5-9[/h]5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry (2nd and 10th Commandments).6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another (9th Commandment), since you have put off the old man with his deeds,


[h=1]1 Thessalonians 4:3-7[/h]3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality (7th Commandment); 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well if their under law...no wonder they are walking in sin....because the strength of sin is the law....of course all who are under the law are in a condition of bondage to sin....Its the grace of God that teaches Godliness....Not the law....All the law is doing is taking you and others around the same mountain in the wilderness of sin...again and again....

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Paul here says we are to remove ourselves from others who continue to believe they can walk disorderly in unrepented, or unconfessed sins. For they are not walking in the Spirit, but still walking after the flesh.

 

[haz]

I never said Paul preached in favor of works of the mosaic law.
What Paul taught was that by out of love for the Lord you will keep and uphold His commandments as you are walking in the Spirit. If you are not upholding His commandments out of love for Him then you are not in the Spirit, you are walking carnal minded.

You wrongly split up the law to make it fit with the error doctrine you follow.
The doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace.
God says we cannot mix these two.

Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

In addition, you fail to keep the very commandments that you preach to do.
We've seen several legalists here preaching the same, misquoting scriptures that we are to "keep" the commandments.
From the doctrine preached by legalists here we can only conclude that because you do not "keep" the commandments, then you fail to love God and that you are not in the Spirit, but instead are carnally minded, as you yourself said.

 

[haz]

The law still convicts the person if they are walking in unrepented or confessed sins.
The difference is that you will not have to face the punishments of the mosaic laws ordinances, but you will be in danger of facing judgment and a fiery indignation.

Colossians 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The law convicts a person if they're under the jurisdiction of the law.
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

Hence we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The law convicts a person if they're under the jurisdiction of the law.
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:35, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

Hence we cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If your sins are unrepented of and not confessed then you are still under that jurisdiction.
In post # 2166 I showed verses on how Paul still upheld the commandments, and showed that if you are a believer you would do this to. You also would learn to abstain from every form of evil/sins. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us to do this, if we still sin it is because we give into the flesh and not listen to the Spirit. How you go about it from here determines if you are a true born again believer, as a true born again believer will feel the Godly sorrow from the Holy Spirit leading them to confess it for forgiveness.
If you don't feel that Godly sorrow when you sin, I would have to question rather you have the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit will not lead you to do things that are contrary/enmity to God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7

For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.

If you are still walking in unrepented or unconfessed sins then you are walking in uncleanness and not holiness.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

"10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death."

Revelation 2 has examples of those who don't endure to the end, and what Yahweh does to them.

 

[haz]

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Paul here says we are to remove ourselves from others who continue to believe they can walk disorderly in unrepented, or unconfessed sins. For they are not walking in the Spirit, but still walking after the flesh.

Again you make assumptions about words. You assume "disorderly" means disobeying the law (which you yourself do anyway).

Christians under grace, however, see "disorderly" as referring to non-believers falsely claiming to be Christians.

1Cor 5 gives the same warning, but using a different description.

Within the church of Corinth they had amongst them a false brother who was into sexual immorality with their father's wife.

Reading this in spiritual terms (1Cor 2:14) it speaks of one who is into spiritual sexual immorality with their father's (Satan. See John 8:44. This is the description Jesus gave for legalists) wife (Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law).

We see 1Cor 5:7 confirms this by warning to purge out the old leaven.

What is leaven?
See Matt 16:12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

And note 1Cor 5:11-13, about such disorderly members within the church.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[haz]

If your sins are unrepented of and not confessed then you are still under that jurisdiction.
In post # 2166 I showed verses on how Paul still upheld the commandments, and showed that if you are a believer you would do this to. You also would learn to abstain from every form of evil/sins. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us to do this, if we still sin it is because we give into the flesh and not listen to the Spirit. How you go about it from here determines if you are a true born again believer, as a true born again believer will feel the Godly sorrow from the Holy Spirit leading them to confess it for forgiveness.
If you don't feel that Godly sorrow when you sin, I would have to question rather you have the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit will not lead you to do things that are contrary/enmity to God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7

For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.

If you are still walking in unrepented or unconfessed sins then you are walking in uncleanness and not holiness.

Your post #2166 does not support your claims.

And the unclean are those in unbelief. This includes leaglists who do not see themselves as being cleansed by Christ's blood unless they obey the law to some ambiguous minimum standard or keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions.

I'll be back again tonight as i'm off to work now.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your post #2166 does not support your claims.

And the unclean are those in unbelief. This includes leaglists who do not see themselves as being cleansed by Christ's blood unless they obey the law to some ambiguous minimum standard or keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions.

I'll be back again tonight as i'm off to work now.

Wrong it does support my claims, as Paul is talking to believers in those passages.
He is telling believers over and over again what they can not do, and what things should be a part of their life.
Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:7 Paul says that if somebody considers themselves a believer, yet continues walking in the sins of the flesh then to separate yourself from them for they are still lost and are leading others in a lost state.
The only way to be a pure believer is to have your sins covered by the Lord's precious blood. Past ones get covered at time of baptism and repentance (Luke 13:3, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38). Future sins get covered after they are committed and then confessed. (1 John)

 

[kennethcadwell]

"10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death."

Revelation 2 has examples of those who don't endure to the end, and what Yahweh does to them.

Yes for it says in verse 11 that the Holy Spirit says the one who overcomes, as in endures the persecutions, does not give back into sin, and does not turn away from Him will not be hurt by the second death.
Yet some say they can still give into their sins, and walk in them and still stay saved. This is not true as this is a sign of a disobedient son.

 

[newbirth]

What is the strength of sin according to Gods Word? The law...the Ten commandments produces sinful lust in the flesh...so the solution to sin is not the law of Moses...Its the finished Work of Jesus Christ....

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

how does the ten commandments...produce sinful lust????

James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

....the reason one is delivered from the law is because they are dead...the law has no power over the dead...if you are dead your flesh cannot rule you ...so you follow the spirit and you do not fulfil the lust of the flesh...but if you obey the flesh then you are not dead but live according to the flesh and will be judged according to the flesh...by what law ...the law of commandment of course....you thought it was done away with..........the law of Christ does not condemn...

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

Romans 7:11
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
What therefore shall we say? Is The Written Law sin? God forbid! But I would not have learned sin except by The Written Law, for I would not have known lust, if The Written Law had not said, “Do not lust.”

 

[Mitspa]

Wrong it does support my claims, as Paul is talking to believers in those passages.
He is telling believers over and over again what they can not do, and what things should be a part of their life.
Then in 1 Thessalonians 4:7 Paul says that if somebody considers themselves a believer, yet continues walking in the sins of the flesh then to separate yourself from them for they are still lost and are leading others in a lost state.
The only way to be a pure believer is to have your sins covered by the Lord's precious blood. Past ones get covered at time of baptism and repentance (Luke 13:3, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38). Future sins get covered after they are committed and then confessed. (1 John)

1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Do you just make stuff up? Kenneth, you cannot just make the Word of God up as you go along!

 

[Mitspa]

how does the ten commandments...produce sinful lust????

James 1:13-15King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

....the reason one is delivered from the law is because they are dead...the law has no power over the dead...if you are dead your flesh cannot rule you ...so you follow the spirit and you do not fulfil the lust of the flesh...but if you obey the flesh then you are not dead but live according to the flesh and will be judged according to the flesh...by what law ...the law of commandment of course....you thought it was done away with..........the law of Christ does not condemn...

Read it and believe it...become a fool and God will make you wise.... admit "nothing good lives in you"...and the gospel will become very clear to you.

 

[newlife7]

I also think it is important for Christians to understand Hebrews 10:22 as well. We have been sprinkled from an evil conscience by Christ and His blood is so pure sometimes while living in this fallen world we try to imagine how pure is the One who never sinned but it is probably impossible to grasp fully. I think we as Christian soldiers need to fully understand this fact and not let whatever is going on in our minds make us think otherwise. Because the fact is when Jesus sprinkled us with His blood we became very very very very pure.