THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

Hoffco · Jan 6, 2015

To Haz. you condemn yourself by a "faith only" and no need for obedience to the holy, righteous moral laws of God. Sorry, I don't think you are a God fearing REAL Christian. You and Mitspa seem to have a FALSE spiritual perfection ,in Christ only, and ,Of Christ only, accepted by faith only. Love to all Hoffco

kennethcadwell · Jan 6, 2015

Mitspa said:

Once again you are only looking at half the message, for He will not impute our past sins on us that have been repented of and confessed, and future sins when they are confessed will not be imputed either. You have to go by all the scriptures to get the full meaning, not just half. Notice how it says in verse 7 it says once your sins are forgiven and covered by His blood then in verse 8, He will not impute them on the believer. This is past covered sins, how are future sins covered? Through confession as 1 John clearly states.

haz · Jan 7, 2015

john832 said:

Hi John,

Regarding Matt 5:19, I answered this before. Jesus was obeying the law and taught it as is required under the law. If he didn't do this then he would not have been the sinless sacrifice on our behalf.

But if you note the gospels, Jesus also offered grace as the alternative to works of the law.

I really don't know why legalists like to quote Matt 5:18,19 in support for their doctrine, considering how they themselves always fail to keep the law anyway.

And nobody has said that the law is totally gone.

Consider in Rev 20 how people will be judged according to their works, based on 2 books. The books are the law AND the book of life, who is Christ. That is we are judged either by works of the law OR the works of believing on Jesus, John 6:29.
BTW, you cannot mix these two, Rom 11:6. It's either works of the law OR grace. There is no lukewarm middle ground that God accepts between these two.

Those who do the works of believing in Jesus are found in the book of life (Christ).

But those without Christ (such as legalists) will be judged by their works of the law. And anyone found with even just ONE offence will be found guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10. Those judged by the books of the law includes the lukewarm who mix works of the law, with grace. These face the second death.

Thus we see the law is still around even till end time judgement.

john832 said:

Consider Matt 19:17-21
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
he young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come FOLLOW ME

Jesus preached the law as it requires, being that he was under the law. But the man recognized that he still lacked in spite of keeping the law. Jesus then offered him the alternative, follow him (believe on Jesus, John 3:16).

Legalists always leave out this most important part of Matt 19:17-21.

john832 said:

What are Christ's commandments?
1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

john832 said:

It's interesting that legalists would quote these verses from Rev considering that none of them keep the commandments anyway.

haz · Jan 7, 2015

Hizikyah said:

You used the term "llegalists" without any explaination what you meant. I was asking you questions to try to get clarification about who you were referring to as "illegalists".

haz · Jan 7, 2015

john832 said:

Thanks, but God gave us His word in English, and we both understand and speak English (not Greek).
Also, Christ is our teacher (1John 2:27, Matt 23:8).
Hence we clearly don't need to learn Greek to understand scripture.

Consider the context with Rom 10:4.
Rom 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Hence we see in Rom 10:3,4
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

So we see from the context that it's speaking against establishing righteousness by works of the law.
Thus we see the law is ended as a means for us to attain righteousness. And I see this is also conformed by the Greek you refer to.

Consider the rest of scripture which confirms this.

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,

Gal 4:24,25
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring usto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

These scriptures all confirm Rom 10:4 that when we believe on Jesus then the law as a means to attain righteousness is ended.

john832 said:

Legalists always plead that they are simply preaching that we obey the law. But they hide the fact that they preach judgement /condemnation with it. Legalists determine righteousness by works of the law.

Consider the various doctrines that legalists preach.

1: Some imply through their message that we have a sin (transgression of the law, 1John 3:4) ledger that must be perfectly balanced out with repentance. Any failure to keep this sin ledger perfectly balanced out results in being impure/unrighteous and condemned/lost.

2: Some preach that some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience to the law must be attained or else we're found to be unrighteous and therefore condemned/lost.

3: And others preach that perfect obedience to the law must be attained or else we're unrighteous and condemned/lost.

In spite of the variations amongst these legalist doctrines, they all same the same common theme that works of the law are required for righteousness.

Consider also Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This contradicts your view of Rom 2:13. You are misunderstanding the context of Rom 2:13.

haz · Jan 7, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

The false doctrine you follow claims that we keep ourselves pure by keeping our sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions. You claim that anyone who fails to keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced is impure.

In addition we see that the false doctrine you follow also keeps Christians under the law (in spite of the fact that we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:45, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9). Thus, being under the law, Satan, the accuser (Rev 12:9,10), can continue to accuse us of sin.

But, what does scripture say regarding your insistence that 1Tim 5:22 refers to purity by remaining under the law that we're not under anyway, and keeping our sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions?

How did Christians purify themselves?

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This hope that purifies Christians is that now we are sons of God, because we believe on Jesus.

1Pet 1:18-22
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith andhope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

What "truth" purified us?

It was believing on Jesus, who redeemed us with his precious blood.

Tit 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again we see that it's when we believe on Jesus that we are purified and redeemed.

Clearly there are no deeds of the law mentioned in these scriptures on how Christians became pure.

Clearly, the way to become impure is to be in unbelief.

How does one become an unbeliever?

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Thus we see that the false doctrine you follow (of righteousness by works of the law) is actually how one becomes impure. That is how one becomes a partaker of another's "sin", 1Tim 5:22.

How does one make themselves a sinner?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

newbirth · Jan 7, 2015

haz said:

The false doctrine you follow claims that we keep ourselves pure by keeping our sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions. You claim that anyone who fails to keep their sin ledger perfectly balanced is impure.

In addition we see that the false doctrine you follow also keeps Christians under the law (in spite of the fact that we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:45, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9). Thus, being under the law, Satan, the accuser (Rev 12:9,10), can continue to accuse us of sin.

But, what does scripture say regarding your insistence that 1Tim 5:22 refers to purity by remaining under the law that we're not under anyway, and keeping our sin ledger perfectly balanced with confessions?

How did Christians purify themselves?

1John 3:2,3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This hope that purifies Christians is that now we are sons of God, because we believe on Jesus.

1Pet 1:18-22
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith andhope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

What "truth" purified us?

It was believing on Jesus, who redeemed us with his precious blood.

Tit 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again we see that it's when we believe on Jesus that we are purified and redeemed.

Clearly there are no deeds of the law mentioned in these scriptures on how Christians became pure.

Clearly, the way to become impure is to be in unbelief.

How does one become an unbeliever?

Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Thus we see that the false doctrine you follow (of righteousness by works of the law) is actually how one becomes impure. That is how one becomes a partaker of another's "sin", 1Tim 5:22.

How does one make themselves a sinner?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

2 Peter 3:1-3King James Version (KJV)
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

john832 · Jan 7, 2015

haz said:

Well then, if that 1611KJV was good enough for them there 'postles, it oughta be good enough for us, huh?

You've got to be kidding me. You think the 1611 English version of the Bible is exactly as God inspired it and that the Apostle Paul recorded the epistle to the Romans in 1611 English?

Oh well, you can lead a horse to water...

john832 · Jan 7, 2015

haz said:

Thanks, but God gave us His word in English, and we both understand and speak English (not Greek).
Also, Christ is our teacher (1John 2:27, Matt 23:8).
Hence we clearly don't need to learn Greek to understand scripture.

Consider the context with Rom 10:4.
Rom 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone
Hence we see in Rom 10:3,4
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

So we see from the context that it's speaking against establishing righteousness by works of the law.
Thus we see the law is ended as a means for us to attain righteousness. And I see this is also conformed by the Greek you refer to.

Consider the rest of scripture which confirms this.

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,

Gal 4:24,25
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring usto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Gal 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

These scriptures all confirm Rom 10:4 that when we believe on Jesus then the law as a means to attain righteousness is ended.

Legalists always plead that they are simply preaching that we obey the law. But they hide the fact that they preach judgement /condemnation with it. Legalists determine righteousness by works of the law.

Consider the various doctrines that legalists preach.

1: Some imply through their message that we have a sin (transgression of the law, 1John 3:4) ledger that must be perfectly balanced out with repentance. Any failure to keep this sin ledger perfectly balanced out results in being impure/unrighteous and condemned/lost.

2: Some preach that some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience to the law must be attained or else we're found to be unrighteous and therefore condemned/lost.

3: And others preach that perfect obedience to the law must be attained or else we're unrighteous and condemned/lost.

In spite of the variations amongst these legalist doctrines, they all same the same common theme that works of the law are required for righteousness.

Consider also Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This contradicts your view of Rom 2:13. You are misunderstanding the context of Rom 2:13.

Same story, different day.

If you insist that Rom 10:4 is the end of the Law, do you insist that...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

is the END of faith?

and that...

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

is the demise of Christ?

oldthennew · Jan 7, 2015

we should all 'study' for ourselves, we should search the scriptures diligently
and at least try and familiarize ourselves with the elementary Hebrew/Greek
meanings as this obviously will give us a clearer understanding of the
Holy Doctrine, this is something that is just 'basic' - for Bible Study interpretation.

as for us, we desire the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth,
for many things are hid and we have been given the job of uncovering
here a little there a little through much study, submission, obedience,
to the Holy Spirit accompanied with much prayer.

john832 · Jan 7, 2015

oldthennew said:

we should all 'study' for ourselves, we should search the scriptures diligently
and at least try and familiarize ourselves with the elementary Hebrew/Greek
meanings as this obviously will give us a clearer understanding of the
Holy Doctrine, this is something that is just 'basic' - for Bible Study interpretation.

as for us, we desire the Truth, the Whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth,
for many things are hid and we have been given the job of uncovering
here a little there a little through much study, submission, obedience,
to the Holy Spirit accompanied with much prayer.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Mitspa · Jan 7, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

No that's your understanding...the understanding of a child.....If God says He will not remember anymore...and that He has perfected forever those in Christ....then clearly the law has no power to make a charge of sin against those justified in Christ.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

haz · Jan 7, 2015

john832 said:

You are twisting what I said. Read my post again. I said the Greek supported what I showed from scripture.

haz · Jan 7, 2015

oldthennew said:

hi oldthenew,

Why do you place limits on the God almighty?

Do you really think God is incapable of giving English Bibles to those who speak English.

its Christ who gives us the understanding, regardless of what language we speak. There is no need to learn Greek.

The disciples were considered as unlearned men without the supposed greater knowledge of the Pharisees. Thus we see your argument for worldly wisdom will not help.

Trust in God instead

kennethcadwell · Jan 7, 2015

Mitspa said:

Yes He offered one sacrifice for sins forever = Meaning there is no need for sacrifices no more.

Yes the Holy Spirit is our witness = Because He guides and helps us to abstain from sins, and when we do sin He convicts us with a Godly sorrow leading you to confess them for forgiveness.

Yes their sins and iniquities He will remember no more = Because you have repented and confessed them.

Romans 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Notice it gives it in two parts; How is ones sins forgiven? By faith followed with repentance of your past sins. (Romans 3:25, 2 Peter 1:9)
How are sins covered ? By confessing future sins are your sins covered. (1 John 1:9, 2:1)

Only once your sins have been forgiven and covered by His blood are they not imputed on you.
You have to take all scriptures on the same subject to get the full meaning. I don't know how many times I have to emphasize that point with those of you who only use half the scriptures.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And once again like I said to haz you two misuse the context of 1 John 3:9, because John says back in 1 John 2:1 we do still sin. So to use this in the context that believers can't sin is false. The actual context is that a believer will not continue in willful sin, because they will confess those sins when they commit them. And then our Lord being just and our advocate will forgive us of that sin, keeping us pure.

Once again if believers can not have future sins imputed on us, Paul would not have warned Timothy that he could become impure again do to sin. In order to keep yourself pure is by confessing your sins.

kennethcadwell · Jan 7, 2015

We have a couple of people here who say the 10 Commandments were done away with, but we can see by Paul's teachings that he still upheld the 10 Commandments !!!

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH] [/TH]
[TH]Old Testament[/TH]
[TH]New Testament[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]First
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Second
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10[/TD]
[TD]Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Third
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fourth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15[/TD]
[TD]Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fifth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sixth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seventh
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eighth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ninth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10th
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21[/TD]
[TD]Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I guess Paul was teaching justification by the law, since he upheld them and did not do away with them.
On the contrary Paul taught that by love for the Lord you uphold and keep His commandments.

newbirth · Jan 7, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

We have a couple of people here who say the 10 Commandments were done away with, but we can see by Paul's teachings that he still upheld the 10 Commandments !!!

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]
[TH]Old Testament[/TH]
[TH]New Testament[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]First
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Second
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10[/TD]
[TD]Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Third
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fourth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15[/TD]
[TD]Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fifth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sixth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seventh
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eighth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ninth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10th
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21[/TD]
[TD]Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I guess Paul was teaching justification by the law, since he upheld them and did not do away with them.
On the contrary Paul taught that by love for the Lord you uphold and keep His commandments.

How many times and ways will he say the same thing....he who has ears to hear will hear....who has ears for only earrings and holding up glasses I guess they will not hear....
Romans 7:25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Kerry · Jan 7, 2015

What doe's law have on the blood?

haz · Jan 8, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

We have a couple of people here who say the 10 Commandments were done away with, but we can see by Paul's teachings that he still upheld the 10 Commandments !!!

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH][/TH]
[TH]Old Testament[/TH]
[TH]New Testament[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]First
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:3;
Deuteronomy 5:7[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Second
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:4-6;
Deuteronomy 5:8-10[/TD]
[TD]Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-20; Ephesians 5:5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Third
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:7;
Deuteronomy 5:11[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:33-37; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fourth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:8-11;
Deuteronomy 5:12-15[/TD]
[TD]Luke 4:16; 23:55-56; Acts 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:9; 1 John 2:6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fifth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:12;
Deuteronomy 5:16[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 15:4-9; 19:19; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; Ephesians 6:1-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sixth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:13;
Deuteronomy 5: 17[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29-30; 13:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Seventh
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:14;
Deuteronomy 5:18[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Romans 7:2-3; 13:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eighth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:15;
Deuteronomy 5:19[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ninth
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:16;
Deuteronomy 5:20[/TD]
[TD]Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10th
Commandment[/TD]
[TD]Exodus 20:17;
Deuteronomy 5:21[/TD]
[TD]Luke 12:15; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3, 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I guess Paul was teaching justification by the law, since he upheld them and did not do away with them.
On the contrary Paul taught that by love for the Lord you uphold and keep His commandments.

A lot of scriptures quoted here, but I see you misunderstand them, quoting them out of context, and even misusing them on issues that are not relevant to your point.

Consider also the fact that you judge righteousness by deeds of the law.

Whilst you distort scripture in the hope to falsely argue that Paul preached in favor of works of the law, the gospel contradicts you.

newbirth · Jan 8, 2015

Mitspa said:

do you even know what you are saying????? you people are the greatest now you are saying the law produces sinful lust and desires...the law does not produce anything...you are drawn away by your own lust and enticed...
God is saying to us...you need to have the mind of Christ...live as he lived....within the law but you do not have to make sacrifice for sins as the Jews did...Christ became our sacrifice and our high priest and mediator .....as long as we are in this body of flesh the law is watching everything we do waiting to condemn if we do evil...we who are in Christ are careful to maintain good works...and not fulfil the lust of the flesh...
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 3:14
And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Romans 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 7:25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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