THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Mitspa]

that simply means if you don't sin the law have no power over you....and therefore not subject to it...but if you sin the law regains power over you.... exposes the sin and condemn you ....

No it means the commandments produce sinful lust in those under the law...."the strength of sin is the law"...read it again and pay attention!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of (evil desire)concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[Mitspa]

Apostle Paul talking to Apostle Timothy


1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

2 Timothy 2:21-26
21 If you keep yourself pure, you will be a utensil God can use for his purpose. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work. 22 Run from anything that stimulates youthful lust. Follow anything that makes you want to do right. Pursue faith and love and peace, and enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts. 23Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 The Lord's servants must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone. They must be able to teach effectively and be patient with difficult people. 25 They should gently teach those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will believe the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the Devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.


Then what Paul says about an impure person;


Ephesians 5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

(Being unclean is the same as being impure.)

That's just silly Kenneth....Paul is telling Timothy not to ordain any man unless he is sure he is godly ...If you ordain a person before others as a minister and he is a crook...then you are a sharer of his sins... Because you approved him before the church....

 

[Mitspa]

Those under law have all manner of evil desires stirred up in them through the law...they cannot understand the divine nature of God that works in those who are justified by faith. They always try to turn the grace of God into some license to sin Not understanding anything but the lust of there own flesh.

The reason that some think others desire sin like they do is because they are slaves of sin and cannot understand those who through the grace of God have become slaves of righteousness... They judged that others have the same wicked desires that they have in their own hearts. A believer who walks in the Spirit of God looks to do good, not evil.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That's just silly Kenneth....Paul is telling Timothy not to ordain any man unless he is sure he is godly ...If you ordain a person before others as a minister and he is a crook...then you are a sharer of his sins... Because you approved him before the church....

This still shows in 1 Timothy 5:22 that sin can still be imputed on a believer, or else Timothy could not become impure again as you say.
In 2 Timothy Paul is not talking about ordaining another person. He is telling Timothy here to abstain from all forms of sin keeping himself pure, and then will he be acceptable to be used by God. Paul tells Timothy to stay away from and not give into all his lusts/sins and keep a pure heart, meaning he can not defile himself with sins.
Then he is told by Paul to teach others the same way, that no child of God can walk in impurity.
So once again the only way to keep yourself pure is by His blood that is received by repentance, baptism, and then confession of future sins committed.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The reason that some think others desire sin like they do is because they are slaves of sin and cannot understand those who through the grace of God have become slaves of righteousness... They judged that others have the same wicked desires that they have in their own hearts. A believer who walks in the Spirit of God looks to do good, not evil.

No we do not desire sins, and are not trying to say you do to.
What we are doing is trying to warn you with the same warnings that Paul warned the believers in his day.

Example:

If you repented of sins and was baptized back in 1980 then you have done good, but if you have since that date tell now never once confessed one sin that you have done then this whole time from 1981-2015 you have been living an impure lifestyle. As those sins have not been cleansed yet, and will not be tell you ask for it.

 

[Mitspa]

This still shows in 1 Timothy 5:22 that sin can still be imputed on a believer, or else Timothy could not become impure again as you say.
In 2 Timothy Paul is not talking about ordaining another person. He is telling Timothy here to abstain from all forms of sin keeping himself pure, and then will he be acceptable to be used by God. Paul tells Timothy to stay away from and not give into all his lusts/sins and keep a pure heart, meaning he can not defile himself with sins.
Then he is told by Paul to teach others the same way, that no child of God can walk in impurity.
So once again the only way to keep yourself pure is by His blood that is received by repentance, baptism, and then confession of future sins committed.

Kenneth...you bad WRONG! Now I have explained the truth to you...whether you can accept it or not is up to you...Im not wasting anymore time trying to correct you on this issue.

1Ti 5:17 ¶ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Now clearly Paul is telling Timothy not to "ordain" any elder that is not godly! When you "ordain" you "lay hands" ..... Not to do it in haste.

 

[Mitspa]

No we do not desire sins, and are not trying to say you do to.
What we are doing is trying to warn you with the same warnings that Paul warned the believers in his day.

Example:

If you repented of sins and was baptized back in 1980 then you have done good, but if you have since that date tell now never once confessed one sin that you have done then this whole time from 1981-2015 you have been living an impure lifestyle. As those sins have not been cleansed yet, and will not be tell you ask for it.

Yes clearly those under law are under the power of sin and have many sinful lust and desires being stirred up...Now it is those under grace that should warn those under law to repent and fear the judgment of God, because they have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ because they seek to be justified by the law.

The reason you guys think others are in sin is because you guys are judging others by your own wicked hearts... So you assume others are as sinful as you guys are... But those under grace know that sin has lost its power over us...and we look to do good not evil.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes clearly those under law are under the power of sin and have many sinful lust and desires being stirred up...Now it is those under grace that should warn those under law to repent and fear the judgment of God, because they have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ because they seek to be justified by the law.

The reason you guys think others are in sin is because you guys are judging others by your own wicked hearts... So you assume others are as sinful as you guys are... But those under grace know that sin has lost its power over us...and we look to do good not evil.

Judging others... I have seen you do that more than a few times.

I will judge between right and wrong, I will not judge a person.


Romans 2:12, “For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

 

[newbirth]

No it means the commandments produce sinful lust in those under the law...."the strength of sin is the law"...read it again and pay attention!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of (evil desire)concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Christ was under the law of commandments .....what are the sinful lust it produced in him???? if the law produces sin then it is evil ...is the law evil???
if the commandment produces sinful lust and God gave the commandment...you are saying God gave you something to make you sin and now blames you for that sin...do you ever think things thorough before you write...Do you ask God for wisdom to understand the word....do you believe the spirit of God teaches us the scripture...do you believe the HS has made you a witness to all the works of Christ???

 

[newbirth]

Judging others... I have seen you do that more than a few times.

I will judge between right and wrong, I will not judge a person.


Romans 2:12, “For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”

brothers in Christ have been given the right to judge brothers...
1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

[Hizikyah]

brothers in Christ have been given the right to judge brothers...
1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

If one is fit, remove the plank before the speck in our brothers eye.

But I agree in we should correct each other, but it is not my position to judge ones final destiny (enter in or not) that is what I meant but didnt really explain.

Proverbs 24:25-26, "But he who rebukes the wicked will be a delight, and a righteous blessing will be called upon him. A fitting; appropriate, answer is like a kiss on the lips."

Luke 17:3-4, "So be on your guard! If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him! But if he repents, forgive him! And if he trespasses against you seven times in one day, and seven times in that day turns to you, and says; I repent; then you must forgive him."

Proverbs 27:5-6, "Open rebuke is better than concealed love. Faithful are the wounds from a friend, but the kisses from an enemy are deceitful."

PS whoever is given a role of judge by Yah may it be so!

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes clearly those under law are under the power of sin and have many sinful lust and desires being stirred up...Now it is those under grace that should warn those under law to repent and fear the judgment of God, because they have fallen from grace and are cutoff from Christ because they seek to be justified by the law.

The reason you guys think others are in sin is because you guys are judging others by your own wicked hearts... So you assume others are as sinful as you guys are... But those under grace know that sin has lost its power over us...and we look to do good not evil.

You need to learn how to discern between warning and judging.
Paul's warnings were not just for unbelievers that were not under grace. A lot of the time his warnings were given to believers who were under grace, as he clearly says because you are under grace should we continue to sin.

Certainly Not !!!!


Paul put emphasis on that certainly not part because he knew the dangers sin does to a believer.
You continue to say that sin can not be imputed on a believer, yet Paul says differently. Which is why I continue to debate with you to get you to see the truth.
Once again I will ask you;


Do you Mitspa confess your sins to the Lord when you commit them ?

 

[newbirth]

If one is fit, remove the plank before the speck in our brothers eye.

But I agree in we should correct each other, but it is not my position to judge ones final destiny (enter in or not) that is what I meant but didnt really explain.

Proverbs 24:25-26, "But he who rebukes the wicked will be a delight, and a righteous blessing will be called upon him. A fitting; appropriate, answer is like a kiss on the lips."

Luke 17:3-4, "So be on your guard! If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him! But if he repents, forgive him! And if he trespasses against you seven times in one day, and seven times in that day turns to you, and says; I repent; then you must forgive him."

Proverbs 27:5-6, "Open rebuke is better than concealed love. Faithful are the wounds from a friend, but the kisses from an enemy are deceitful."

PS whoever is given a role of judge by Yah may it be so!

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

we are doing just that when we show someone that are in the wrong...what we are actually telling each other who is opposed ...is that they are in error and in danger of hell-fire.....and by no means are any of us perfected in all knowledge of the scriptures...

 

[Hizikyah]

we are doing just that when we show someone that are in the wrong...what we are actually telling each other who is opposed ...is that they are in error and in danger of hell-fire.....and by no means are any of us perfected in all knowledge of the scriptures...

I fully agree but I dont think you telling me or me telling you that one is one dangerous ground is finalizing ones eternal future.

Of course if one rejects Yahweh's Salvation they are in trouble.... but I cant say even then because that person may change and I have no clue if or when.

 

[haz]

Delivered from the law of sin.

not delivered from the Law of righteousness...................

The law of sin and death (Rom 8:1) is the law of righteousness (Rom 9:31).

 

[haz]

Ok so I can go out an kill and steal and commit adultery?

After all, there is no law against it, right?

You say, "Oh, but a Christian wouldn't do that." Really? And what makes the difference? There is no Law to prohibit it.

Tell me this, which person would you like to me late at night in a dark alley? One who believes the Law is done away? Or a Commandment keeper?

This is a typical argument made by legalists.

Whats the difference between a christian and a legalist?

Christians love others, as Christ commanded, 1John 3:23. Love does no ill to another. Love also forgives 7x70, which we really need in this imperfect physical world. Thus Christians show the same love/grace to others as God shows us. Hence we do not judge another's righteousness by deeds of the law.
For Christians our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5, and not by deeds of the law.

Legalists, however, continue to preach righteousness by deeds of the law.
Like I said before, we see several variations of legalism on forums.
1: Those who preach that we have a sin ledger that must be perfectly balanced with confessions. Any failure to do so results in one being unrighteousness and therefore lost and condemned.

2: Those who preach we must attain some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience to the law or else we're unrighteousness and lost/condemned.

3: Those who preach that we must attain perfect obedience to the law, as is required.

Legalists are are like that servant whose debt had been forgiven by the king, but then that servant would not forgive the debt of a fellow servant.

 

[haz]

Isayah 5:20, "Woe to those who call evil righteous, and righteous evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
Oh but that silly and done away OLD testament right?
Nope it has a mirror image verse in the New:

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

As you yourself admit you do NOT keep the laws anyway, then you condemn yourself.

 

[haz]

I find it interesting that God thought the Law so important and permanent that Christ had to die to pay the penalty in our stead. If the Law is done away, why did Christ have to die to pay the penalty? Why didn't God just wave a magic wand and say the Law is done away? No more sin.

There are two ideas about a solution to the sin problem here...

1) The Law is still in effect and we need someone to pay the penalty for us (God's solution through Christ)

2) Just do away with the Law and there is no more sin. (Bet you can't guess where this one comes from? Here is a hint... 2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, )

you are putting events out of order.
The law as a means to attain righteousness was done away at the cross.

BTW, the law still remains and continues for those who reject Christ (such as legalists).

 

[haz]

Well alrighty then, if you think that the Law is done away, then there is nothing to accuse anyone with. These Kuachi brothers have no one to accuse them. No sin involved there.

Either the Law is in effect or is not. If not, there is no sin...

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

john, you really fail to understand.

The Kuachi brothers are not Christians (unless they repent of their unbelief). For them they will be found unrighteous, just as the legalists will be found unrighteous under the law.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law, Rom 2:12

 

[haz]

Paul didn't understand it either...

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Neither did John...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So, if you think that you don't sin and need forgiveness daily, you, my friend, have a credibility problem.

The context of 1John 1 is evangelical. It "declares eternal life" (John 3:16) so that those non believers it addresses "may also have fellowship".
1Johnn1:8-10 refers to non Christians.

regarding Rom 7:25, the "mind" refers to the spirit, Eph 4:23.