the great revival?

[SarahM777]

Well hold on Stephen, Jesus was the one that rose from the dead.
They believe in Jesus.
They just can't stand the thought of God giving spiritual gifts to men after Sola Scriptura.
None of the gifts ever contradict the Word, because they are given by the same Spirit.
- This is what is so perplexing to me.
- - And the fact is He didn't give them 'after', He gave them concurrent to the Word.

Rick,

If I am giving that impression of saying ALL the gifts of the Spirit ended then I am not being clear on what I mean. Because Paul never said ALL the gifts would end, (the gift of giving,the gift of teaching,the gift of administration,encouragement,the gift faith etc Paul never said those said those would end. What Paul did say was SOME of the gifts would end. (IE the sign gifts) To read anything more into it is wrong on both sides because that is not what Paul said.

This is what he said and he limits it

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror;then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

He does say those three will end,nothing more and nothing less.

 

[SarahM777]

A word of knowledge isn't for yourself.
It is for another who can't see God's purposes for some reason.
It's like coming upon a saint who is caught in a trap.
(We don't know it, God does)
- That's why it's a word of knowledge.
- - All of the gifts are to edify the body.
- - - All of them!

UMM didn't Paul say tongues was a sign for unbelievers?

1 Corinthians 14

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants,but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy,however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

 

[homwardbound]

What is a 'revival' anyway?

to get all worked up about God, excited, overwhelmed in God as to what we shall see
[h=3]Matthew 24:3-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age[/h][SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

Many are already deceived today by emotions over reality. Emotions are a by product of the Flesh, and reality is just plain truth, emotion of truth does follow truth, yet not in over excitement, or overwhelming flow that deceives us, which is flesh doing it and saying look at me, which is happening all over the world today, a lot of self-will worship going on guised as being Holy Spirit filled. Now each person knows this truth in themselves between God and them. So if one knows they are good and in no need of approval by another then I venture to say that one knows truth.

 

[notuptome]

Rick,
They claim that scripture is "complete" & therefore gifts aren't needed. Yet that very "complete" scripture says exactly what you're saying. If they don't believe the Word, they won't believe you. I think this scripture makes that clear:

Luke 16:27-31 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: [SUP]28 [/SUP]For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It would be nice if you guys who are leaders would get it correct. The gifts given to the body, church, are in Eph 4:11-12. For the perfecting of the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, it is better to be totally dead.
Depending on that which is perfect.
For when it comes, there will be no more need of faith or hope.
Some say this is the canonical scripture, others realize that the only time they won't need faith and hope is when Jesus is face to face with them.
I guess we shall see.....

is this not what we are called to be dead to self and alive to God by God through the resurrected Christ living through us in the same power of the same Holt Spirit that led Christ? HMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think so
[h=3]Romans 6:11[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[homwardbound]

"When that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
Our faith and hope are in part, not perfect.
Jesus is perfect, not the canon. (I can give you instances where it is not).
Also God is love(charity), not the canon.
- Not the letter.

truth to the "T"

 

[RickShafer]

UMM didn't Paul say tongues was a sign for unbelievers?

1 Corinthians 14

20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants,but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy,however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

Ummmm.......in comparison to prophecy, yes.
Again, context being key.
Is that the sole reason for tongues? See for yourself. (Read the other parts of the Bible that mention tongues, including Acts 19:6.)

 

[homwardbound]

UMM But does that really make sense if the gifts were to continue why would just one end and not the rest? Wouldn't that lead to confusion as to when they all would end?

Flesh and blood is what creates and makes confusion to this very day of not seeing the truth.
It is the Spirit of God that we are one in God, dead to flesh ways of worship, and truth thus revealed on God's depth of God's love that no flesh can bear and or ever understand

 

[homwardbound]

Because the Apostles wrote what God said.
Prophets and Evangelists and Pastors and Teachers need to spread and interpret the word.
Why was the body of Christ likened to a body? (Think about it)
- - If the head is Christ, why a need to have the rest? -
- - - (Hint) - We are the rest.
Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers minister to His body. - (Which is the church)

God lives in us and through us if we will dead to self, co-crucified with Christ, then we might live in the new life that is given to us after agreeing to die to self, between God and self. Hmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder could this be truth?

 

[homwardbound]

Matthew 12:35-37 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP]A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. [SUP]36 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

so if they are of self even if looking good to others so suffer loss and if of God by God's Spirit, the new life we are called to have by the resurrected Christ, we have gain, only fro God to choose who is who and what is what
Thanks Stephen

 

[SarahM777]

Ummmm.......in comparison to prophecy, yes.
Again, context being key.
Is that the sole reason for tongues? See for yourself. (Read the other parts of the Bible that mention tongues, including Acts 19:6.)

UMM Acts 19 is the same as what happened at Pentecost,remember in Acts 2 when they spoke in tongues they were proclaiming the wonders of God. He is saying the same thing happened only slightly different words and in Acts 19 he doesn't into detail as opposed to Acts 2 where Luke goes into what was said.

I have and outside of Acts (which only mentions it five times and after chapter 19 Luke never mentions it again) and 1 Corinthians where Paul does say they will end the Bible doesn't say much. And even in 1 Corinthians he places more of an emphasis on speaking clearly in a language that people around would know what we are saying. So how does this all fit together?

I'm not sure if you saw this so I will repeat it here

First I am not talking about the gifts of ministry,I am talking about the sign gifts. Now is it not possible that Paul told us this so we have a plumb line in which to test whether these modern "sign gifts" are from God or not? If one of the sign gifts was the Apostles and they DID end,then it appears to me some are then saying we really have no plumb line to know when each of the sign gifts ended,because what is implied is that they could end over a very long period of time,so then do we really know for sure if the supernatural gift of knowledge ended in 100 AD,500 AD,1500 AD or does it still continue on today? What if that is God's plumb line to show us that these very well may not be from God?

 

[RickShafer]

Sign gifts?
One time was one of the gifts said to be a sign.(the same gift being said more than once as edifying the believer, or believers)
The gifts are not for signs.
They are for edification of the body.

 

[zone]

Ummmm.......in comparison to prophecy, yes.
Again, context being key.
Is that the sole reason for tongues? See for yourself. (Read the other parts of the Bible that mention tongues, including Acts 19:6.)

will unbelievers or believers benefit from glossolalia in the great revival?
or will the anointed begin to speak to "this people" (1st century Israel) in gentile languages?

i wanted to see where an endtimes revival is predicted.
in Daniel?
Joel?
Matthew?

where?

 

[zone]

I've heard in pentacostal circles that there is supposed to be a great revival before Jesus comes for His bride. Is this biblical?

just a bump
reminder of the OP

 

[SarahM777]

Sign gifts?
One time was one of the gifts said to be a sign.(the same gift being said more than once as edifying the believer, or believers)
The gifts are not for signs.
They are for edification of the body.

Actually Jesus said it

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Then it is confirmed that the signs were done

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 5

12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. 13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.

Paul tells us what the purpose was for

Romans 15

18 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12

11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,”[a]even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

 

[RickShafer]

will unbelievers or believers benefit from glossolalia in the great revival?
or will the anointed begin to speak to "this people" (1st century Israel) in gentile languages?

i wanted to see where an endtimes revival is predicted.
in Daniel?
Joel?
Matthew?

where?

Joel 2:28.
It's been going on for a while.
All of the gifts are without repentance.
"When that which is perfect is come......"
- The canon isn't perfect, (pssst) -it has mistakes.
What lasts when hope and faith are no longer needed?
Has that scripture been fulfilled?

 

[RickShafer]

Actually Jesus said it

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Then it is confirmed that the signs were done

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles.44 All the believers were together and had everything in common.45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Acts 5

12 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.

Paul tells us what the purpose was for

Romans 15

18 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 12

11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,”[a]even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles.

Surely you are not claiming that taking up serpents is one of the gifts of the Spirit?
Certainly these are all signs that followed either Jesus or the apostles. These were not the gifts.
The gifts were never to show signs.

 

[RickShafer]

Rick,

If I am giving that impression of saying ALL the gifts of the Spirit ended then I am not being clear on what I mean. Because Paul never said ALL the gifts would end, (the gift of giving,the gift of teaching,the gift of administration,encouragement,the gift faith etc Paul never said those said those would end. What Paul did say was SOME of the gifts would end. (IE the sign gifts) To read anything more into it is wrong on both sides because that is not what Paul said.

This is what he said and he limits it

1 Corinthians 13

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror;then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

He does say those three will end,nothing more and nothing less.

So you are saying the Canon is perfect?
Wait, you still need faith to read and believe it.
You still need hope for all of it's promises to come true.
When did the apostle say we wouldn't need faith and hope?
When we are face to face?
When we are face to face with what? - (or Whom?)

 

[SarahM777]

Now add to that,Jesus also gave this warning

Matthew 24

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Paul says this

2 Thessalonians 2

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


Revelation 13

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs,even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.


Revelation 16

13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

UMM Did God tell us these things for His health or were we told these things for a reason? Why does He give us these stern warnings? Is He telling us very strongly to test these things so we are not deceived? Or am I just being a worry wart? Should we be concerned about where this is coming from? If it's not from Him then is it possible that this may be part of the falling away?
I have yet to find anywhere in the Bible that there would be a great revival but we are warned they would be a great falling away,that would go along with signs and wonders,some so strong that MOST will be deceived.

 

[SarahM777]

Joel 2:28.
It's been going on for a while.
All of the gifts are without repentance.
"When that which is perfect is come......"
- The canon isn't perfect, (pssst) -it has mistakes.
What lasts when hope and faith are no longer needed?
Has that scripture been fulfilled?

Love will remain.