It is simply an attempt to make a snide remark, and deflect attention for the gross error of limited atonement. I am still waiting for an honest Calvinist to admit that what the Bible says about unlimited atonement is true, that Five Point Calvinism is false, and they will not believe such nonsense any more. It appears that the more the Bible truth is presented, the more people double down on holding to their false doctrines (as noted in the Joseph Prince discussions).
The Gross Error of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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ugh, i responded to this earlier, and poof! server maintenance. i'll try again.
i 2000 % agree that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord, in genuine faith and repentance, will be saved.
(just don't tell postuhman i said 2000 % or i'll get a math lesson.
)
i wholeheartedly affirm that. anyone who comes to Christ in repentance and faith will be saved. i know this because i believe in Sovereign election, and i know that whoever comes, to them it has been granted to come. God foreknew (foreloved) that person, Christ died for that person, and in time the Holy Spirit enables that person to come to Jesus.
the verses you quoted apply to the believers. in Rom 8, the 'us all' are the believers. in 2 Cor 5, the 'us all' for whom Christ died are those who no longer live for themselves, but for God, the believers.
particular redemption may not be as easy to see in the Scriptures as election. neither is the Trinity, yet Christians affirm the Trinity. i think if someone can't, or won't, see election as a Biblical doctrine, particular redemption becomes all the more untenable.
but i was thinking about this last night (and yes, i had a thought! lol).
why is God's electing a people for Himself and choosing to have mercy on some such a hard pill to swallow? it makes God a 'monster', 'capricious', and so on, because in choosing a people, He doesn't have mercy on all, and thus, in that way of thinking, condemns some. (i don't believe that, but i see the logic...)
all Christians affirm God's omniscience, right? so if God, er, looks down the corridors of time, sees who will choose Him and who definitely will not, and intentionally creates those who will not choose Him and are destined for hell, knowing that will be their destination...
is that really any different? as a dear friend who has gone Home used to say, we're stuck with the same 'pig'; we've just put lipstick on it.
i really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.
i 2000 % agree that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord, in genuine faith and repentance, will be saved.
(just don't tell postuhman i said 2000 % or i'll get a math lesson.
)i wholeheartedly affirm that. anyone who comes to Christ in repentance and faith will be saved. i know this because i believe in Sovereign election, and i know that whoever comes, to them it has been granted to come. God foreknew (foreloved) that person, Christ died for that person, and in time the Holy Spirit enables that person to come to Jesus.
the verses you quoted apply to the believers. in Rom 8, the 'us all' are the believers. in 2 Cor 5, the 'us all' for whom Christ died are those who no longer live for themselves, but for God, the believers.
particular redemption may not be as easy to see in the Scriptures as election. neither is the Trinity, yet Christians affirm the Trinity. i think if someone can't, or won't, see election as a Biblical doctrine, particular redemption becomes all the more untenable.
but i was thinking about this last night (and yes, i had a thought! lol).
why is God's electing a people for Himself and choosing to have mercy on some such a hard pill to swallow? it makes God a 'monster', 'capricious', and so on, because in choosing a people, He doesn't have mercy on all, and thus, in that way of thinking, condemns some. (i don't believe that, but i see the logic...)
all Christians affirm God's omniscience, right? so if God, er, looks down the corridors of time, sees who will choose Him and who definitely will not, and intentionally creates those who will not choose Him and are destined for hell, knowing that will be their destination...
is that really any different? as a dear friend who has gone Home used to say, we're stuck with the same 'pig'; we've just put lipstick on it.
i really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.
you say the verses I provided are applieded to believers, but then it seems the believers are choosing according to those same verses
if you choose Christ, then you believe
God draws people by His Spirit...actually the same as He holds those who are His
I wish I could say yes they do, but they do not all. I do though so we are on the same page there. God does know who will choose Him so in that sense, yes He does know ahead of OUR time who will call on His name. It sounds similar, but I do not believe we are seeing it quite the same.
you state believers are identified in the verses I provided; I do not believe that. I believe it is whosoever, but God does know who will and who will not. I don't know how you can get away from John 3:16 and many others verses that do not provide for God handing out the cosmic lottery of salvation.
God has chosen people for Himself right through the Bible. We see this in the NT as well. However, as David says, He knew us in the womb. Who we are and how we would respond because of who we are.
God does not cause cars to hit children etc as hyper Calvinists believe and it about seems to me there are hyper-Calvinists on this site...I don't know if you are or not
when I hear people saying things like some terrible event that has happened is God's will for them, I cringe. I think they take solace in believing that. It's like saying I don't have to look before I cross the road because I will only be hit if it is God's will
where does spiritual battle come in? what part does the devil play here (as I think someone has already asked)
anyway....
That's not what he said, so why are you misrepresenting him? He quoted Scripture which is perfectly correct in stating that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, or more particularly, the Gospel as the Word of God.
When the Gospel is preached, it becomes the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe (Rom 1:16). But since all men are commanded to repent and believe, all men could believe and be saved. But all will not believe, because some love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? We have the words of Christ in John chapter 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
When the Gospel is preached, it becomes the power of God unto salvation to all those who believe (Rom 1:16). But since all men are commanded to repent and believe, all men could believe and be saved. But all will not believe, because some love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? We have the words of Christ in John chapter 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Its ok that you don't understand the bible.
I didn't understand it at first, either.
But then I prayed for Wisdom and understanding and Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Once you receive these things you find out that it was God all along who led you to make all those choices to repent and to pray and to obey. You find out that Salvation is the Power of God and not the good choices or good intentions of men.
I didn't understand it at first, either.
But then I prayed for Wisdom and understanding and Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Once you receive these things you find out that it was God all along who led you to make all those choices to repent and to pray and to obey. You find out that Salvation is the Power of God and not the good choices or good intentions of men.
You could ask the Ninevites why they decided to repent and believe God after Jonah warned them of impending judgment. You could also ask the Jews of Christ's day why they chose to reject Him and revile Him, instead of receiving Him as Lord and Savior, and while He shed tears for the damnation of Jerusalem's inhabitants.
Did God "elect" the whole city of Nineveh after warning them that they would be utterly destroyed? Did God "elect" the majority of the Jews to damnation, after making them His chosen people?
Can you see how false and foolish the whole concept of Calvinistic election and limited atonement is?
Did God "elect" the whole city of Nineveh after warning them that they would be utterly destroyed? Did God "elect" the majority of the Jews to damnation, after making them His chosen people?
Can you see how false and foolish the whole concept of Calvinistic election and limited atonement is?
Sir I am interested in the truth . I am also interested in accuracy. So I will share a little about me . I don’t follow any doctrine that I did not see in scripture.For your information I was not raised under any particular religious beliefs. My family was unchurched. I was a atheist . After a life of emptiness ,and one depressing night I was drawn to read scripture. I soon after believed. I read the whole Bible in just a few months. I then started to read it again and agian this time taking notes and I used regular and biblical dictionaries . This took years and I filled several composition books with notes . Also during this same time I went to find a congregation. It was here I realized I had a Reformed view of scripture. A friend helping me find a congregation told me . When he asked me what exactly I believed. So when you say that this doctrine is of the devil you are accusing me. I had not an do not read a commentaries to from my beliefs. My understanding came from scripture sir . I was a blank slate when it came to my beliefs.
Bill
Bill
How though? If all are sinners, if not one is righteous, then how do they do they believe what is against their nature to?
Hiw do you read this verse here?
Romans 12:3 For by grace given to me I bid every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him
Hiw do you read this verse here?
Romans 12:3 For by grace given to me I bid every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him
Here's why the Jews didn't believe.
John 10:24-28
So the Jews gathered round him and said to him "How long will you keep us in suspence? If you are the Christ tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my fathers name, they bare witness to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them from my hand.
What's foolish is equating the work of Christ on the cross to be anything less than a job done flawlessly.
Edit: Somehow I quoted the wrong comment. Lol.
John 10:24-28
So the Jews gathered round him and said to him "How long will you keep us in suspence? If you are the Christ tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my fathers name, they bare witness to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them from my hand.
What's foolish is equating the work of Christ on the cross to be anything less than a job done flawlessly.
Edit: Somehow I quoted the wrong comment. Lol.
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By the freedom of their will. Every man has the ability to repent and choose to believe.
That's talking about Christians fulfilling their role in the body of Christ. Each person has a function in the body and a service (ministry) to perform, and God makes sure that each person has the faith to do what God wants him to do. It's still up to the person to choose to do it.
Here is what God wants the wicked to do:
Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
That's talking about Christians fulfilling their role in the body of Christ. Each person has a function in the body and a service (ministry) to perform, and God makes sure that each person has the faith to do what God wants him to do. It's still up to the person to choose to do it.
Here is what God wants the wicked to do:
Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Well in that case you must face the truth and discard the false doctrine of limited atonement. On the basis of Scripture alone.
1. Does the Bible says that all men are sinners? Absolutely (Rom 3:10,23)
2. Does the Bible say that all we like sheep have gone astray, and the Lord has laid upon Christ the iniquity of us all? Absolutely (Isa 53:6).
3. Does the Bible say that Jesus Christ is the propitiation (satisfactory atoning sacrifice) for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely (1 John 2:2)
In view of all this truth, why have you then not rejected the doctrine of limited atonement?
1. Does the Bible says that all men are sinners? Absolutely (Rom 3:10,23)
2. Does the Bible say that all we like sheep have gone astray, and the Lord has laid upon Christ the iniquity of us all? Absolutely (Isa 53:6).
3. Does the Bible say that Jesus Christ is the propitiation (satisfactory atoning sacrifice) for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely (1 John 2:2)
In view of all this truth, why have you then not rejected the doctrine of limited atonement?
So it looks like this is the root cause of why the error of limited atonement is held so tenaciously. Therefore let’s imagine the internal dialogue which leads to this conclusion.
1. If Christ’s atoning sacrifice is perfect, it should mean that each one for whom Christ died MUST be saved. Is guaranteed to be saved. After all that is what Calvinistic election is all about.
2. Since all men are not saved, and since there will be only a relatively few saved, that means that Christ died only for the elect.
3. But what should we do with the Scriptures which plainly state that Christ died for the sins of the whole world?
4. There are a few options:
(a) Someone inserted those verses into Scripture, but they do not really belong there.
(b) The “world” does not really mean the world of all humanity but the world of the elect only. So when John 3:16 says that God so loved “the world” that should really have said God so loved “the elect”.
(c) The Holy Spirit was wrong to tell us that Christ is indeed the ransom for all, when He also said that Christ is the ransom for “many”.
(d) It is simply not possible that Christ died for all the sins of Judas (or any other monsters parading as humans) as much as He died for all the sins of Paul (while he was Saul) or all the other saints.
(e) We can conveniently ignore those Scriptures which say that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since Reformed Theology is the only perfect theology in Christendom.
1. If Christ’s atoning sacrifice is perfect, it should mean that each one for whom Christ died MUST be saved. Is guaranteed to be saved. After all that is what Calvinistic election is all about.
2. Since all men are not saved, and since there will be only a relatively few saved, that means that Christ died only for the elect.
3. But what should we do with the Scriptures which plainly state that Christ died for the sins of the whole world?
4. There are a few options:
(a) Someone inserted those verses into Scripture, but they do not really belong there.
(b) The “world” does not really mean the world of all humanity but the world of the elect only. So when John 3:16 says that God so loved “the world” that should really have said God so loved “the elect”.
(c) The Holy Spirit was wrong to tell us that Christ is indeed the ransom for all, when He also said that Christ is the ransom for “many”.
(d) It is simply not possible that Christ died for all the sins of Judas (or any other monsters parading as humans) as much as He died for all the sins of Paul (while he was Saul) or all the other saints.
(e) We can conveniently ignore those Scriptures which say that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since Reformed Theology is the only perfect theology in Christendom.
Ok let’s look at # 3 1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but a also for the sins of the whole world.” . Would you agree that not everyone is saved ? I believe you do so we will move on . Why are they not saved Why are they In Hell ? Are they in Hell for their sins or is it the sin of disbelief in Christ Jesus? If they are in for their sin then the penalty for sin was not removed and the atonement of Christ is not applied to them . Now looking at the idea of the sin of disbelief or rejecting Jesus . So all their other sins are paid in full they go to Hell for all eternity for that one sin ? Ok what about those that never heard the Gospel? Their are over 7 billion people on earth over 2.9 billion have never heard the Gospel message How can they reject Jesus having never heard of Him ? Many don’t have a Bible in a language they can understand. Their are over 6,000 languages and only 366 of those languages have a whole Bible . 928 have the New Testament. Many folks never heard how can they reject Jesus having never been given the offer ?
Also note a simple plain reading of language translated into another is not always the best . 1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but a also for the sins of the whole world.” Look at the word for (The Greek Word peri it’s plus genitive) is not specific in regard to a certain way in which Christ is the propitiation “for” the sins of the world. Peri is defined “concerning” or “with respect to . It in no way is definite or specific enough to describe in what respect or way the atonement is applied. Also something I learned because I am bilingual is that one word written in one language dose not translate well into one word in another. That is why when I read or study the scriptures I use multiple Bible translations dictionaries,word studies to get fuller understanding. That and having a elder at a congregation I use to attend that teaches Hebrew and Greek helps .
Bill
Also note a simple plain reading of language translated into another is not always the best . 1 John 2:2 “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but a also for the sins of the whole world.” Look at the word for (The Greek Word peri it’s plus genitive) is not specific in regard to a certain way in which Christ is the propitiation “for” the sins of the world. Peri is defined “concerning” or “with respect to . It in no way is definite or specific enough to describe in what respect or way the atonement is applied. Also something I learned because I am bilingual is that one word written in one language dose not translate well into one word in another. That is why when I read or study the scriptures I use multiple Bible translations dictionaries,word studies to get fuller understanding. That and having a elder at a congregation I use to attend that teaches Hebrew and Greek helps .
Bill
