The Heresy of Annihilationism

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Ceasing to exist is pretty much a get out of jail card.
Not sure how you see ceasing to exist as a "get out of jail card".

A person who ceases to exist is dead.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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You will "sleep" until Jesus wakes you up! Did Jesus "pull" Lazarus out of heaven when he brought him back to life, e.g. woke him up? Just so he could die again and go back? Bet Lazarus was a little disappointed to be brought back to life and pulled out of heaven . . . just saying :cool:
NO if you read 1thess 4:13-18 the term Sleep there is what the engilsh tranlation called the saved dead .
the greek word is "koimaō "

which means : figuratively, to decease:—(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Not sure how you see ceasing to exist as a "get out of jail card".

A person who ceases to exist is dead.
LOL now you don't even listen to your own logic LOL smh
 
Feb 21, 2012
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No it is not . the context of eternal life is with GOD over eternal dammnation without God. anyone who would think that eternal life and eternal dammnation are the same , are missing the Biblical context of hell and Heaven
I didn't say that eternal life and eternal damnation are the same . . . YOU ARE! This is what I said - "eternal life - living forever . . . eternal damnation - the second death. These two are NOT the same.

Even LIVING eternally damned is eternal life because they are still LIVING. Which is basically saying EVERYONE gets eternal life". The reason I said that "LIVING eternally damned is eternal life because they are still LIVING - is because you have death no where in the picture . . .
You have either living eternally which is God's gift given to those who believe in Jesus Christ OR you have living eternally damned - in both scenarios - they are LIVING. Where is "DEATH"? Where is the wages of sin? DEATH . . . Where is the "second DEATH"? Is the "second DEATH" actually life?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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You will "sleep" until Jesus wakes you up! Did Jesus "pull" Lazarus out of heaven when he brought him back to life, e.g. woke him up? Just so he could die again and go back? Bet Lazarus was a little disappointed to be brought back to life and pulled out of heaven . . . just saying :cool:
I've agreed with a lot you've had to say. You've even helped me some in my understanding in places (but then so have those who I've not agreed with anything on, strange as that sounds. :))

I do however still feel there is some pretty strong support for a change regarding this sleep thing after Jesus resurrection. I've given the verses earlier in this thread, but the one that I think is the strongest one to lead the argument is the souls under the altar in Revelation who are told to rest for a little while longer when they ask how long?

But when you add the other verses, I think it's a pretty strong argument. But everyone can decide for themselves. :)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I didn't say that eternal life and eternal damnation are the same . . . YOU ARE! This is what I said - "eternal life - living forever . . . eternal damnation - the second death. These two are NOT the same.

Even LIVING eternally damned is eternal life because they are still LIVING. Which is basically saying EVERYONE gets eternal life". The reason I said that "LIVING eternally damned is eternal life because they are still LIVING - is because you have death no where in the picture . . .
You have either living eternally which is God's gift given to those who believe in Jesus Christ OR you have living eternally damned - in both scenarios - they are LIVING. Where is "DEATH"? Where is the wages of sin? DEATH . . . Where is the "second DEATH"? Is the "second DEATH" actually life?
you have to keep the words in context to the Word of God ; " Eternal life. Live for ever, shall never die all have context how thwey are used
When Jesus said Eternal torment, Eternal damnation, shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

THEY are Sight specific . They are not the same they are not to be views as the same because the reward and punishment are not the same. You cannot over look the context of hell and life eternal.

it sounds like you think those who say a person is going to have eternal torment if they die unsaved is saying they gewt eternal life. that is not the context of eternal life. And you think the punishment is they cease to exsist that is not a punishment that sounds more like hope it is because IF your wrong , hell is going to be as Jesuis said it would be.

you may not like that truth is a place of eternaL PUNISHMENT , torment, and fire that never goes out.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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NO if you read 1thess 4:13-18 the term Sleep there is what the engilsh tranlation called the saved dead .
the greek word is "koimaō "

which means : figuratively, to decease:—(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
I don't see that definition here "the saved dead" for koimao . . . . So, when scripture says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, . . . we don't REALLY die - it is just figurative?

Jesus uses the analogy of sleep when speaking of death because we will WAKE up and our next conscious thought will be - being with Christ. Just like when we go to sleep at night - our next conscious thought is when we awake in the morning. When he calls us out of that grave!!! Into his glorious grace!!! (I love that song!)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I'm glad you're amused, but explain how I am not listening to my own logic.
You said "A person who ceases to exist is dead. If they are dead already then there is no nee for a judgerment ,


You make Jesus look more unjust by this error. Those who are unsaved who die will be raised by God, so HE can make them non-existent when death is non-existent already.



So, by your logic you said, “dead is non-existent”. BUT God will make them exist so HE can make them Non-exist again to punish them.

LOL ahahaha wow thats far out !!!
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I don't see that definition here "the saved dead" for koimao . . . . So, when scripture says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, . . . we don't REALLY die - it is just figurative?

Jesus uses the analogy of sleep when speaking of death because we will WAKE up and our next conscious thought will be - being with Christ. Just like when we go to sleep at night - our next conscious thought is when we awake in the morning. When he calls us out of that grave!!! Into his glorious grace!!! (I love that song!)
I did not say thew saved dead I said the context of 1thess 4:13-18 id about those who are saved and died. Paul is telling them do not worry. read it .
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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You said "A person who ceases to exist is dead.
Right.

If they are dead already then there is no nee for a judgerment ,
Everyone who has ever lived will be raised from the dead and stand before Christ. Many will be judged and condemned to the lake of fire: the second death.

You make Jesus look more unjust by this error. Those who are unsaved who die will be raised by God, so HE can make them non-existent when death is non-existent already.
You're leaving out that EVERYONE will be judged.

So, by your logic you said, “dead is non-existent”. BUT God will make them exist so HE can make them Non-exist again to punish them.
For the most part, that's exactly what will happen.

LOL ahahaha wow thats far out !!!
Groovy, man.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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I did not say thew saved dead I said the context of 1thess 4:13-18 id about those who are saved and died. Paul is telling them do not worry. read it .
Paul is not telling dead Christians not to worry. Dead Christians can't hear anything. They are dead.

Paul is telling living Christians not to worry about those who have died in Christ because those dead Christians will be raised from the dead.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Right.


Everyone who has ever lived will be raised from the dead and stand before Christ. Many will be judged and condemned to the lake of fire: the second death.


You're leaving out that EVERYONE will be judged.


For the most part, that's exactly what will happen.


Groovy, man.
Not me I will not be judged LOL that si why you are in error I have passed from death unto LIfe I have eternal Life right now and hope of the rurrection. When I die I will be with my Lord you can think your stuck a sleep LOL go a head. that false teaching can't be true BEcause IF it was then Jesus would not have went to the Father nor raised from the dead .

Rom 6:4 " Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. "

2Pet 1:14-16
knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.

They were eyewitness to the resurrected Christ So they knew more about what would happen after they died then you or I will ever know . Paul knew , Stephen was looking up and SAW The Lord Standing. Laid down and gave UP the Ghost.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Paul is not telling dead Christians not to worry. Dead Christians can't hear anything. They are dead.

Paul is telling living Christians not to worry about those who have died in Christ because those dead Christians will be raised from the dead.
yea yea yea the " them " I am speaking about , are those Paul is writing too who are not dead come on. Play games somewhere else . If you did not understand the context of 1thess 4:13-18 Don't look for an error when you know full well what I meant . come on.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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you have to keep the words in context to the Word of God ; " Eternal life. Live for ever, shall never die all have context how thwey are used
When Jesus said Eternal torment, Eternal damnation, shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Ok - I do read in John 11 where Jesus says "and whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die" . . . but yet in Hebrews it is written that "it is appointed unto men once to die" . . . hmmmm - an apparent contradiction. So something is wrong - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he WERE dead, yet shall he live: (when "in the resurrection at the last day") - and whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die - (after being resurrected) . . . . e.g. they have eternal life.
THEY are Sight specific . They are not the same they are not to be views as the same because the reward and punishment are not the same. You cannot over look the context of hell and life eternal.
You are right the reward and the punishment are not the same - one is eternal life - one is the second death . . . that is the only thing we are promised - The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. One has to pay those "wages" for their sins . . . they will be judged unrighteous and have to pay the "wages of sin" - which is death.
it sounds like you think those who say a person is going to have eternal torment if they die unsaved is saying they gewt eternal life. that is not the context of eternal life. And you think the punishment is they cease to exsist that is not a punishment that sounds more like hope it is because IF your wrong , hell is going to be as Jesuis said it would be.

you may not like that truth is a place of eternaL PUNISHMENT , torment, and fire that never goes out.
If a person is going to have ETERNAL torment - they would have to be ALIVE to be TORMENTED, wouldn't they? or why else torment them? So logically - to feel the torment eternally they would have to have eternal life, e.g. live eternally. I do not think the punishment of "ceasing to exist" sounds anything like hope . . . To stay dead for eternity . . . to cease to exist . . . ain't hope to me! Hope to me is to live again, to be raised from sleep and be forever with our Lord.

And see again - eternal punishment, torment and fire - the person is living in order to experience that punishment and therefore is living eternally. Not REALLY dead . . . no one REALLY dies . . . "ye shall not surely die".
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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Not me I will not be judged LOL
2 Cor 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Christians will not be judged for salvation, but we will certainly be judged.

that si why you are in error I have passed from death unto LIfe I have eternal Life right now and hope of the rurrection.
We all (Christians) do not have everlasting life right now, we have the promise of everlasting life. If we die before Christ comes back, we will be dead. And then when he does return, we will be raised from the dead, and be immortal.

When I die I will be with my Lord you can think your stuck a sleep LOL go a head. that false teaching can't be true BEcause IF it was then Jesus would not have went to the Father nor raised from the dead .
When (if) you die, you will be dead. And then when Christ returns to gather the Christian church, you will be raised from the dead.

Rom 6:4 " Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. "
Amen!

2Pet 1:14-16
knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
Yes, Jesus told Peter that his death was imminent.

They were eyewitness to the resurrected Christ So they knew more about what would happen after they died then you or I will ever know . Paul knew , Stephen was looking up and SAW The Lord Standing. Laid down and gave UP the Ghost.
Those who were eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ knew what death was.

Yes. Paul, Peter, and Stephen died, and are dead. They will be raised at the rapture.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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So the words of Jesus and the writer of hebrews counterdict each other ? No. The context has to be examined . And When Jesus is speaking HE is Authoritiative. SO if it appears like they do not agree it is your understanding that is the issue not the Lord or the writer of Hebrews . You have to dig deeper.