The Heresy of Annihilationism

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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yea yea yea the " them " I am speaking about , are those Paul is writing too who are not dead come on. Play games somewhere else . If you did not understand the context of 1thess 4:13-18 Don't look for an error when you know full well what I meant . come on.
I'm not playing games. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

I do understand the context of 1 Thes 4:13-18.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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So the words of Jesus and the writer of hebrews counterdict each other ? No. The context has to be examined . And When Jesus is speaking HE is Authoritiative. SO if it appears like they do not agree it is your understanding that is the issue not the Lord or the writer of Hebrews . You have to dig deeper.
I don't know who or what you are responding to.

edit: never mind... I just saw PB's post.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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I did not say thew saved dead I said the context of 1thess 4:13-18 id about those who are saved and died. Paul is telling them do not worry. read it .
Oh, I have!!! Lots of times!!!! Yes, it is written to the church - we aren't to worry about those who are "asleep" (DEAD) in Christ because they will be in the resurrection in the last day when the trump of God shall sound and the DEAD in Christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air and ever be with the Lord.

Always - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ . . .
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Not me I will not be judged LOL that si why you are in error I have passed from death unto LIfe I have eternal Life right now and hope of the rurrection. When I die I will be with my Lord you can think your stuck a sleep LOL go a head. that false teaching can't be true BEcause IF it was then Jesus would not have went to the Father nor raised from the dead .

<snip>
You will be judged - We all will be judged . . . . For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. . . .(2 Cor. 5:10)

You have the promise of eternal life - YOU WILL DIE . . . but you will be resurrected when the Lord returns - until he returns you will "sleep", e.g. be dead in the grave and then in that day, the day of Christ . . . He will "wake" you - raised incorruptible to eternal life.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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So the words of Jesus and the writer of hebrews counterdict each other ? No. The context has to be examined . And When Jesus is speaking HE is Authoritiative. SO if it appears like they do not agree it is your understanding that is the issue not the Lord or the writer of Hebrews . You have to dig deeper.
I believe I went into the context of John . . . Hebrew plainly states "And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Isn't ALL scripture GOD breathed and would be authoritative? . . . and yes, if they do not agree it would lie in OUR understanding.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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I believe I went into the context of John . . . Hebrew plainly states "And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Isn't ALL scripture GOD breathed and would be authoritative? . . . and yes, if they do not agree it would lie in OUR understanding.
Jesus took our place in judgment. Jesus paid the full price of the law on our behalf. We will not be judged unto condemnation because we have already received our judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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You will be judged - We all will be judged . . . . For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. . . .(2 Cor. 5:10)

You have the promise of eternal life - YOU WILL DIE . . . but you will be resurrected when the Lord returns - until he returns you will "sleep", e.g. be dead in the grave and then in that day, the day of Christ . . . He will "wake" you - raised incorruptible to eternal life.
Nope I hjave paased from death unto life id death is the judgement I already over come it Because Jesus has :) I shall never die my flesh may lay down one day but I will raise as did my Lord :)
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Nope I hjave paased from death unto life id death is the judgement I already over come it Because Jesus has :) I shall never die my flesh may lay down one day but I will raise as did my Lord :)
I will die but I have the assurance because Christ rose from the dead that I too will raise as did my Lord but NOT until He returns and raises me. :)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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He had sin in His presence when He went and sought out adam and eve after what they'd done...and that was before any blood covered them.

And when the sons of God went and presented themselves before God, satan also went with them, and he actually had conversation with God...

Not to argue, but this sounds to me like sin in Gods' presence.
Jesus--->You shall die in your SINS and not be able to be where I am <---to the Pharisees....Point being..God holy, righteous nature DEMANDS judgment and punishment for sin....
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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Some just don't want to believe that "dead" means "dead" - they want to give EVERYONE eternal life! When it is written: The wages of sin is DEATH, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL life. . . . and that GIFT is given ONLY to those who believe in Jesus Christ - not to Hitler, Dahmer, Ben Ladin, Manson, etc. (unless they confessed Jesus as Lord on their death beds!) They will face God at the white throne judgment and be judged upon their works and face the second death - which is NOT to live eternally.
You say 'some just don't want to believe that dead means dead'.
What about those like yourself who ignore the many scriptures which speak of eternal torment and everlasting fire and so many other scriptures which leave no doubt that the soul does not cease to exist.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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The Bible also says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The problem in the world today is that Christians are getting their information from the writings of men, YouTube, web-sites and hearsay, instead of relying on the word of God. I read other peoples stuff, but only to see if it is in agreement with scripture. That said, since Roger Tutt is teaching that punishment in the lake of fire is not endless, then the only thing that he is teaching is a false teaching, because the word of God is very clear regarding eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire.

All believers in Christ should be doing their own studies in God's word. And when someone teaches them regarding God's word, they should be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see whether or not the person is telling the truth, being in agreement with the word of God.
Many people don't read the word of God rightly. That's why there are learned people that have studied for years and write books in order to assist with understanding.
How can understanding be gleaned though when there is first animus for anything but one's own thought they're absolutely right. And all who disagree are absolutely wrong. And should be abused to show that. Jesus did not teach in that manner. But many who invoke him as their savior demonstrate those they align against need to be saved from their animus.

But that too is God's way. Because we do know them by their actions.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Many people don't read the word of God rightly. That's why there are learned people that have studied for years and write books in order to assist with understanding.

Everyone should be able to understand the word of God, especially if they continue studying it because God continues to reveal His truths as you continue to seek out His word. If you rely on the teachings of men, how can you know whether or not they are telling the truth? You can't, unless you yourself study God's word and know the answers. In regards to learned people, as you call them, I have been studying for over 40 years, so does that qualify? And being one who has and continues to study the topic of Hell/Hades and the lake of fire, then I understand that punishment in Hell is eternal/everlasting while conscious and existing, just as the scriptures state. This is why I told you that Mr. Tuft who is teaching that Hell is not everlasting, is teaching falsely.

Annihilation/extinction is just not taught in scripture. The translated words "destruction, destroyed or punishment, lost, etc." based on the Greek words that they are being translated from, infers complete loss of well being, ruination, being completely cut-off. According to accumulated scripture, life and death are both states of conscious existence determined by ones state of being in relation to God after the death of the body. As an example, consider the following scripture:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

You see the word "destruction" highlighted in red above? That word is the Greek "apoleia" which is defined as following:

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Strong's Concordance

apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684
apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The word "apoleia" is from "apollumi." If you will look above, under Helps Word-studies, you will see that I have highlighted in red a characteristic of the both the noun "apoleia" and its root verb "apollumi" which state that "destruction" does not imply "annihilation." The destruction spoken of is complete loss of well being, ruination, to be completely cut off from the presence of God and His blessings. Therefore, wherever you see in scripture the word "destruction, destroy, perish, lost, loss, etc." and the word translated from them is "apoleia, apollumi or olethros, " then the translated word cannot infer annihilation or extinction. These are the three major words used to describe the ultimate destruction of those in the lake of fire, which again does not infer non-existence or annihilation.

That said, both life and death are states of eternal conscious existence, which is defined by an individuals state-of-being in relation to God after the death of the body. Life is eternal conscious existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God, where death is eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. There is no annihilation or extinction.

This is important and I want you to understand it, because you are supporting someone who is distorting the truth of God's word and you need to know the truth for yourself.

I hope that you will consider what I have posted here and search the scriptures for yourself regarding this subject.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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I was reading a thread here when I first browsed before joining. As I remember it someone said that Strong himself didn't think his concordance was all that reliable.

Do you find it conflicting to say this, If you rely on the teachings of men, how can you know whether or not they are telling the truth? You can't, unless you yourself study God's word and know the answers.
While offering the teachings of a man and his concordance to affirm a fire hell as a conscious afterlife for the condemned?

Jesus taught we are to love our enemies. Is an eternal suffering hell fire destiny for the condemned sent there by an all knowing God in line with that teaching? We are to love our enemies but God roasts his for eternity? Having known prior to making anything that exists who would end up there?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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That said, both life and death are states of eternal conscious existence, which is defined by an individuals state-of-being in relation to God after the death of the body. Life is eternal conscious existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God, where death is eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. There is no annihilation or extinction.
That has never been true, and will never be true.

Death means death, not "eternal conscious existence."

I hope that you will consider what I have posted here and search the scriptures for yourself regarding this subject.
It does not take much consideration to determine that what you believe and are promoting is not true.

Ecc 9:
5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isa 38:
18) For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Ps 6:
5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ps 146:
4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

There are many more.

It is a mistake to build a theology from a parable.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I believe I went into the context of John . . . Hebrew plainly states "And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Isn't ALL scripture GOD breathed and would be authoritative? . . . and yes, if they do not agree it would lie in OUR understanding.
of course it is and context is important and who is speaking. you mean to tell me if your understanding is Hebrews clearly says something that contradicts what Jesus said you are just going to say it's the word of God?
No that is not what we do . there is an understanding for proper biblical understanding

1. there are no contradictions in the word of God


when you have what appears to be a contradiction it is with your understanding not the word of God you have to dig deeper.
2. When Jesus is speaking HE is the final Authority . Jesus's words are what you Build on .
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,066
4,348
113
I was reading a thread here when I first browsed before joining. As I remember it someone said that Strong himself didn't think his concordance was all that reliable.

Do you find it conflicting to say this, If you rely on the teachings of men, how can you know whether or not they are telling the truth? You can't, unless you yourself study God's word and know the answers.
While offering the teachings of a man and his concordance to affirm a fire hell as a conscious afterlife for the condemned?

Jesus taught we are to love our enemies. Is an eternal suffering hell fire destiny for the condemned sent there by an all knowing God in line with that teaching? We are to love our enemies but God roasts his for eternity? Having known prior to making anything that exists who would end up there?
this is the error of the statement here

"but God roasts his for eternity"

Man cannot question Gods motives or HIS Judgement. What ever God does HE is Right in doing so. Did not God call for the utter destruction of the "Amalekites"

1sam 15:2-3

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

same loving God. Who can place a charge to God? who is the created to question the Creator ?
Yes Jesus who taught to love your enemies and the eternal torment of Hell are in line with that teaching .


That line of thinking is very very dangerous and could even be blasphemy of God to speak in such away .
This too is very telling of the error of this teaching . Also unbiblical .
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
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I was reading a thread here when I first browsed before joining. As I remember it someone said that Strong himself didn't think his concordance was all that reliable.

Do you find it conflicting to say this, If you rely on the teachings of men, how can you know whether or not they are telling the truth? You can't, unless you yourself study God's word and know the answers.
While offering the teachings of a man and his concordance to affirm a fire hell as a conscious afterlife for the condemned?
Hello OstrichSmiling,

There are always going to be people who say things like Strong's as not being reliable. They do so because people use the definition of those words to contend for the truth of God's word. Therefore, they attempt to discredit whatever is being used to support the truth.

The answer to the other statement, is because those scriptures which describe Sheol/Hades and the lake of fire have other descriptive words in the context which support the idea of on-going conscious punishment, such as eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, torture, punishment, etc. I have used the following scripture many times as an example, but I will use it here again to demonstrate those descriptive words in the context:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

The word "tormented" above is defined as "torture," and that with burning sulfur in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. One would have to be existing, conscious and aware, in order to be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. Otherwise, if they were just burned up, i.e. annihilated when they were cast into the lake of fire, they would not exist in order to be tormented in their presence.

In addition, the scripture states that "the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night." The descriptive words "forever and ever" and "no rest day or night" infer never ending torment. No cessation or intermission from said torment.

Jesus taught we are to love our enemies. Is an eternal suffering hell fire destiny for the condemned sent there by an all knowing God in line with that teaching? We are to love our enemies but God roasts his for eternity? Having known prior to making anything that exists who would end up there?
It is important to understand that, God's grace and His mercy are offered to those who are living. Seek the Lord while He may be found. Today is the day of salvation. Once a person dies in their sins without the blood of Christ covering them, their record is sealed. From that point on, there is no grace or mercy, for God's grace and His mercy come through Jesus Christ. Therefore, whoever rejects Him, there is no longer any other sacrifice for sins. You've heard that saying "the judge is going to throw the book at you!" Well, that is exactly what God is going to do with all of the unrighteous dead.

For those who believe, Christ was held accountable for their sins. For those who do not believe, they will be held accountable for their own sins, every single one, or as Jesus said, "Men will give an account for every idle word they shall speak."

I hope that this information is helpful
 
Feb 21, 2012
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You say 'some just don't want to believe that dead means dead'.
What about those like yourself who ignore the many scriptures which speak of eternal torment and everlasting fire and so many other scriptures which leave no doubt that the soul does not cease to exist.
Even "hell" ceases to exist . . . And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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of course it is and context is important and who is speaking. you mean to tell me if your understanding is Hebrews clearly says something that contradicts what Jesus said you are just going to say it's the word of God?
No that is not what we do . there is an understanding for proper biblical understanding

1. there are no contradictions in the word of God
So this is not the word of God: Hebrews 9:26-28 And then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of man; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. . . . the verse I quoted is in the middle of these two verses - I consider it the word of God.

Correct.
when you have what appears to be a contradiction it is with your understanding not the word of God you have to dig deeper.
2. When Jesus is speaking HE is the final Authority . Jesus's words are what you Build on .
I believed I agreed with you that apparent contradictions lie in our understanding . . . I am only to utilize the words of Jesus? What about the "whole of scripture" being God breathed?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I believed I agreed with you that apparent contradictions lie in our understanding . . . I am only to utilize the words of Jesus? What about the "whole of scripture" being God breathed?
the whole word of God amen is inspired yes you are correct .
But human understanding is not :)
So when it seems other scriptures contradict other scriptures the idea is wrong we have error in our understanding
the point is contextually Jesus and other writers would not speak differently then Jesus . Also the inspired word given at the time would be limited due to Jesus had not come . So After Jesus has come and after revelation of Who Jesus is when other writings in the New testament must line up with Christ. And they do. If I read something in Isaiah and it seems this Prophet said something different then Jesus I by rule follow Jesus. Why ? because HE is authoritative. Doing so is not seen as not accepting the inspired word of God no. it is seem as maturity in our understanding.