The Heresy of Annihilationism

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Feb 21, 2012
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the whole word of God amen is inspired yes you are correct .
But human understanding is not :)
So when it seems other scriptures contradict other scriptures the idea is wrong we have error in our understanding
the point is contextually Jesus and other writers would not speak differently then Jesus . Also the inspired word given at the time would be limited due to Jesus had not come . So After Jesus has come and after revelation of Who Jesus is when other writings in the New testament must line up with Christ. And they do. If I read something in Isaiah and it seems this Prophet said something different then Jesus I by rule follow Jesus. Why ? because HE is authoritative. Doing so is not seen as not accepting the inspired word of God no. it is seem as maturity in our understanding.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God [God-breathed], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 1:11,12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. . . There is no scripture more authoritative than any other.


I had to go back and see where the context of this conversation came from: You said: "you have to keep the words in context to the Word of God ; " Eternal life. Live for ever, shall never die all have context how thwey are used . . . . When Jesus said Eternal torment, Eternal damnation, shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." I then went and looked up "eternal life", Live forever, shall never die . . . and responded: I do read in John 11 where Jesus says "and whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die" . . . but yet in Hebrews it is written that "it is appointed unto men once to die" . . . hmmmm - an apparent contradiction. So something is wrong - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he WERE dead, yet shall he live: (when "in the resurrection at the last day") - and whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die - (after being resurrected) . . . . e.g. they have eternal life." - which when you read John 11 in context there is NO apparent contradiction with Hebrews 9:27 "And it is appointed unto men once to die" . . . whereas you take John 11 - "shall never die" as "I will never die" and not in the context of "after the resurrection". Looking at it as after the resurrection "though he WERE dead, yet shall he live", "shall never die" [after the resurrection] and "it is appointed unto men once to die" do harmonize . . . because all who have done evil and do not believe in Jesus Christ will be resurrected in the "resurrection of the unjust" BUT they will receive the "second death" never again to live.

Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of the wicked, for the evil man has no future hope, and the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out. Proverbs 24:19,20
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matt. 3:12
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1


Ezekiel 28:18 tells that Satan will be "devoured" by fire . . . brought "to ashes" . . . . and "never shall be again" . . . that is the second death awaiting all those who do not believe in Jesus Christ - judged unrighteous.
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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Hello OstrichSmiling,

There are always going to be people who say things like Strong's as not being reliable. They do so because people use the definition of those words to contend for the truth of God's word. Therefore, they attempt to discredit whatever is being used to support the truth.

The answer to the other statement, is because those scriptures which describe Sheol/Hades and the lake of fire have other descriptive words in the context which support the idea of on-going conscious punishment, such as eternal, everlasting, forever and ever, torture, punishment, etc. I have used the following scripture many times as an example, but I will use it here again to demonstrate those descriptive words in the context:

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

The word "tormented" above is defined as "torture," and that with burning sulfur in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. One would have to be existing, conscious and aware, in order to be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb. Otherwise, if they were just burned up, i.e. annihilated when they were cast into the lake of fire, they would not exist in order to be tormented in their presence.

In addition, the scripture states that "the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night." The descriptive words "forever and ever" and "no rest day or night" infer never ending torment. No cessation or intermission from said torment.



It is important to understand that, God's grace and His mercy are offered to those who are living. Seek the Lord while He may be found. Today is the day of salvation. Once a person dies in their sins without the blood of Christ covering them, their record is sealed. From that point on, there is no grace or mercy, for God's grace and His mercy come through Jesus Christ. Therefore, whoever rejects Him, there is no longer any other sacrifice for sins. You've heard that saying "the judge is going to throw the book at you!" Well, that is exactly what God is going to do with all of the unrighteous dead.

For those who believe, Christ was held accountable for their sins. For those who do not believe, they will be held accountable for their own sins, every single one, or as Jesus said, "Men will give an account for every idle word they shall speak."

I hope that this information is helpful
It is. Thank you.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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this is the error of the statement here

"but God roasts his for eternity"
That is scripture sir. Matthew 25 is but one chapter proof.

Man cannot question Gods motives or HIS Judgement. What ever God does HE is Right in doing so. Did not God call for the utter destruction of the "Amalekites"
1sam 15:2-3

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

same loving God. Who can place a charge to God? who is the created to question the Creator ?
Yes Jesus who taught to love your enemies and the eternal torment of Hell are in line with that teaching .


That line of thinking is very very dangerous and could even be blasphemy of God to speak in such away .
This too is very telling of the error of this teaching . Also unbiblical .
That line of thinking is reflective of Gideon and his encounter with God's angel in Judges 6.
There is nothing wrong at all with questioning God's word as a means of understanding God's word.
It is not blasphemy in the least. And as Judges 6 and brother Gideon proved, it is not at all unbiblical.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Even "hell" ceases to exist . . . And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Amen, dead is dead, alive is alive. No limbo in between. .James says as a body without the essence of spirit life is dead and so would the labor of love or work of faith be dead unless it worked to produce something. How can dead flesh work? the life of the flesh is in the blood but is not literal blood a spirit is needed to give it life. Christ suffered for our sin as the father striked the son with the law of God as to the letter it kills. The son of man Jesus died to show spirit life was given in jeopardy of His own Spirit

For many years I wondered, how could a God of mercy have mercy on some and other must suffer in their corrupted flesh forever and ever because of what one man did . That would seem to me to be merciless. God who is subject to His own word as the authority above His power informs us in James below

3 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.James 2


God's mercy cannot rejoice against his own judgement . I think he has two kinds of mercy .One by grace giving the believer a future hope of rising and receiving a new incorruptible body .and the other the end of suffering we show the mercy of God as a representative glory and not hide it under a basket
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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Amen, dead is dead, alive is alive. No limbo in between. .James says as a body without the essence of spirit life is dead and so would the labor of love or work of faith be dead unless it worked to produce something. How can dead flesh work? the life of the flesh is in the blood but is not literal blood a spirit is needed to give it life. Christ suffered for our sin as the father striked the son with the law of God as to the letter it kills. The son of man Jesus died to show spirit life was given in jeopardy of His own Spirit

For many years I wondered, how could a God of mercy have mercy on some and other must suffer in their corrupted flesh forever and ever because of what one man did . That would seem to me to be merciless. God who is subject to His own word as the authority above His power informs us in James below

3 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.James 2


God's mercy cannot rejoice against his own judgement . I think he has two kinds of mercy .One by grace giving the believer a future hope of rising and receiving a new incorruptible body .and the other the end of suffering we show the mercy of God as a representative glory and not hide it under a basket
All come before the judgment. The believers who will have those things they did for God accounted of by God. And those who refused the heavenly unrepentant gift of God's grace filled eternal salvation.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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That is scripture sir. Matthew 25 is but one chapter proof.

That line of thinking is reflective of Gideon and his encounter with God's angel in Judges 6.
There is nothing wrong at all with questioning God's word as a means of understanding God's word.
It is not blasphemy in the least. And as Judges 6 and brother Gideon proved, it is not at all unbiblical.
No the comment :

"Jesus taught we are to love our enemies. Is an eternal suffering hell fire destiny for the condemned sent there by an all knowing God in line with that teaching? We are to love our enemies but God roasts his for eternity? Having known prior to making anything that exists who would end up there?

THis statement you said here is not Matt 25 . That is why I see an error in the line of thinking .
 
Mar 28, 2016
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All come before the judgment. The believers who will have those things they did for God accounted of by God. And those who refused the heavenly unrepentant gift of God's grace filled eternal salvation.
I beleive its appointed by God for all men to die as in dead, and then comes the judgment as God decision .

The believers that have passed from death to eternal life will not come into condemnation as far as being literal judged .Christ took our place payed the price in full the believers judgement is secure, and those who beleive not (no faith) they are already condemed and will not be retried . No double jeopardy, no second trial.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that "believeth not" is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John3
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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No the comment :

"Jesus taught we are to love our enemies. Is an eternal suffering hell fire destiny for the condemned sent there by an all knowing God in line with that teaching? We are to love our enemies but God roasts his for eternity? Having known prior to making anything that exists who would end up there?

THis statement you said here is not Matt 25 . That is why I see an error in the line of thinking .
Excellent.
The teaching that we are to love our enemies is Matthew 5. Not 25.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Excellent.
The teaching that we are to love our enemies is Matthew 5. Not 25.
you can love your enemy and they can still be held accountable to punishment. God will love them all the way to hell a place that HE did not even make for man.
 

OstrichSmiling

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Jun 17, 2018
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you can love your enemy and they can still be held accountable to punishment. God will love them all the way to hell a place that HE did not even make for man.
God made Hell for Satan and his angels.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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The second death is a term signifying being cast alive into the place of GOD's wrath against sin. There is no indication that anyone will cease to exist there, but will experience the flame that is never quenched and the worm that never dies.
That's an assertion with no backing.


The Lord is the authority on the topic. He never taught that people will burn alive in hell forever.


God most certainly is holy. He created man to fellowship with Him. He gave us free will. He needed a way to assure that when it's all said and done, the final state of things will not have anyone there who is evil. So He made a rule: "The wages of sin is death".


Read each one of those scripture carefully, and do not read your beliefs into what they say. NONE of them say that unsaved people will burn alive in hell forever.


The unsaved will be sentenced to die the second death, which will be permanent.


All of us willingly sin against God at times. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Those who are not saved will be thrown into the lake of fire, and destroyed.


The Lake of fire will eventually burn whatever is thrown into it up.


This is a whole new demonstration of ignorance. God is love, and He wants people to STOP sinning. You are declaring that God is going to put the unsaved into a place where they cannot stop sinning, and allow them to be tortured forever because of something they are unable to stop doing. This is worse than Calvinism.


Luke 16:19ff is a parable.


The abyss in Rev 20:1 is not the lake of fire. It is likely Tartarus, where Satan will be locked up during the millennial kingdom.


Those verses do not say they will be alive forever in the lake of fire.


Luke 16:19ff is a parable.


Yes, the second death will be permanent. There will be no coming back from the second death.


Yes, the second death will be permanent. There will be no coming back from the second death.


Signifying destruction.


Yes, the destruction in the lake of fire will be complete.


There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as people realize what it about to happen to them. Once they are destroyed, they will be silent, they will be dead.


Where does the Bible say ANYTHING about God removing hell out of us?


That is generally true.


I am not a member of any of those denominations, nor do I know any of those people. I believe what the Bible says, that the wages of sin is death.


What would those be, CS1?


Useless for defending your belief. The guy just makes assertions about the definition of those words.

There were already two active threads on this topic. Why did you start a third?

Please let us all know if the administrators of this website decide to make believing in and teaching annihilation a bannable offense. If they do, then I'll stop posting about it. Until that happens, I will not be silent.
well, shrume you have a very interesting name it reminds me of something in the dark and made to eat stuff.

you did not use one verse to support your Claim But Jesus said :

Matt 5:22
“But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[fn] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:43
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—


It was Jesus who said all the above Now have a good day .



Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
 
K

Karraster

Guest
umm, it looks like Shrume has not posted here in almost a year. BTW, I read over most of this thread and didn't see where anyone changed their position.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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umm, it looks like Shrume has not posted here in almost a year. BTW, I read over most of this thread and didn't see where anyone changed their position.
yea I have a lot of thread I go through can't see all 15000 of them in one year sorry :) I will wait a year to see if he respond to this one i did

Thank you
 
K

Karraster

Guest
yea I have a lot of thread I go through can't see all 15000 of them in one year sorry :) I will wait a year to see if he respond to this one i did

Thank you
Hey, I'm not complaining, I think this might be the most interesting thread going and I'm glad you brought it back because I missed it first time around. There's lots of well thought out scripture analysis here, I only wish the original participants would come back for further discussion.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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those who deny the enternal hell punishment are doing harm to those new to the Lord :

Bible 101 on hell read in context the vast amount of scriptures and words of our Lord who is the authority on the topic.

God made Hell because of who he is - holy, holy, holy (Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8) - and thus is too pure to look upon sin (Hab 1:13).
The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. Pro.15:3

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen.6:5
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
umm, it looks like Shrume has not posted here in almost a year. BTW, I read over most of this thread and didn't see where anyone changed their position.
True, his profile is no longer available.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
What does that mean? Has he been, you know, the b word we're not supposed to talk about?
Just hover over his name and click on the box that opens, and then click on his name again. It does not state banned, they do not use that term so much anymore apparently.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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well, shrume you have a very interesting name it reminds me of something in the dark and made to eat stuff.

you did not use one verse to support your Claim But Jesus said :

Matt 5:22
“But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause[fn] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:43
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—


It was Jesus who said all the above Now have a good day .



Rev 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Smoke of judgment.... not smoke of flesh . Flesh has a end (Dust) .They as living human being have no rest day or night.(No salvation )

Not one of those verses gives us a idea of a living suffering like that of Cain a punishment more than he could bear as something that will continue past what the eyes see .we walk by the unseen faith principle .

Dead is dead. If no new spirit is given there is nothing to rise.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return "unto God" who gave it.

Once the unbelievers corrupted body and corrupted spirit returns to there places or origin they will not rise to new spirit life forever more .The shadow of the judgement a witness. The dead nothing, no memories, no pain no bodies of suffering or spirit by which they could "work out suffering"..

No spirit... no work of faith.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.