The Heresy of Perfectionism

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L

Lad

Guest
It was no insult consumed, i was merely pointing out we have different personalities.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
It was no insult consumed, i was merely pointing out we have different personalities.
BrotherI was merely encouraging cobus, no need to justify yourself. Jesus had many a people that had a personality complex with Him too lol :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Who ever said God kicks someone out... God did!!! He kicked Satan out and his fallen angels and He will do so EVERY TIME!!! You see God NEVER kicks out His Children, but His Children do not follow God and Satan! They CANNOT!!! God said clearly... You cannot serve God and Mammon.... Look he did not say you may not serve God and Mammon,,, He said... YOU CANNOT!!! And that i believe! And scripture says clearly...
EG you say the problem is we do not always follow God, why not? Why do you not always follow God? The flesh does not have a MIND of his own... The flesh only does wht the soul tells it to do, and the soul can get two influances... Satan or God? You see my friend that problem is not to big for God! I am sure God can even solve that problem for us!!! Let me tell you how.... If we, You and I come to eachother and we adress every misstep we make and we go to God, I am sure He will HELP!! Look if we are to weak to stop a sin... Mine is the moment somebody drives stupid on the raod, that moment i swear! But i am sure if you come to visit me and i want to proof to you that i am HOLY... then I will stop in mid sentance. And that is still fighting it on my own,,, but IF JESUS now decides... COBUS WILL NEVER SWEAR AGAIN>>> then.... He will give me the POWER to bless those that TEMPT me!! Then in stead of swearing at the man, i will bless him! I used to swear to the man and show them all types of SIGNLANUAGE... but now i swear at them in my head and just keep my hands on the steering and my eyes on the CAR'S Bonnet!/// I improved a lot, but i know the MIND must still change to the blessing part. My friend i will fight against sin untill Jesus is in me 100% then i do not care where i am, dead or His in God or whatever. i will come here and talk to you and confess my sin and try my best not to sin, and if you pray with me and strive with me to GET Jesus to be in us both, i am sure we will find HIM IN US EVENTUALLY! And that is where I hope you and I will end up... IN HIM AND IN HIS WILL!!! God bless us with Your WILL BE DONE IN US AS IN HEAVEN!!!! Amen!!!


The sons of God FOLLOWS THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! Not the sons of God follows the holy spirit some times?
do you think this is all about sins of the flesh?

or do you realize this is about KNOWING WHO JESUS IS and what He really came for?
 
Feb 17, 2010
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Thank you for the Question Zone! As you know I have not labled one person EVER but muself! I also have not EVER labled me WRONGLY! I am a sinner, and not part of the Kingdom of God! There my lable says SINNER!!!Or actually my lable says:..."OLD SINNER FOR SAE! PRICED DOWN TO THREE DROPS OF THE BLOOB OF JESUS!!!" So any person that will help me get the three drops of Jesus' blood can bye me for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN!!!
You see Zone Jesus came to buy me free from my Lable, for HIS GLORY!!! Jesus' Glory is the Kingdom of the Father! And Jesus came to buy me. And EVERY ONE JEUS BOUGHT, ARE NOW LABLED>>>> "This is the possesion of "GOD ALMIGHTY, EVIL CANNOT TOUCH!" In short they are Labled :"CHRIST JESUS"
God says to all these people ... 1 Cor 7:23... Ye are bought with a price... And in Afrikaans it even says with a HEFTY PRICE... And God did pay with His Son's BLOOD! Nothing more valuable than that on earth! This Chapter talks about HOW FREE we are from the old lable of sinner. It says this in 1 Cor 7:20.. For he that is called in the Lord... is a freeman! (MADE FREE) now to say that Jesus made you free but you still sin is to ay JESUS CANNOT MAKE FREE!!! That is just madness!!! If Jesus makes me free from my "SINNER" lable, he also makes me a PERFECT PERSON! Because Jesus only KNOWS HOW TO MAKE PERFECT! Jesus cannot make a sinner a less sinner without FINISHING HIS WORK! All we have to do is BELIEVE HE WILL MAKE US FREE!!! That is the knowledge of Jesus Christ!!! HE IS OUR SALVATION! And if we are saved, WE ARE IN HIM!!! In the Kingdom, and covered in holiness that will not ALLOW ANY SIN IN!!!
EVEN THE FLESH THAT ONCE SINNED ARE NOW SERVING GOD ALONE!!!!! Now this FLESH being made free from sinful lusts, are being used for the GLORY OF GOD!The Word refers to them as "Chrsit's servant" And as we know ONLY SERVING CHRSIT! And in only serving Christ, there is NO SERVING SIN!!! Not even in the thoughts! Even the THOUGHTS SERVE CHRIST! and ONLY Christ! That is what Jesus says about salvation... IT IS FINISHED!!! That means HE FINISHED ALL SIN FOR ME!!! And also HE FINISHED MY TRANSFORMATION TO BE NOW THE GLORY OF GOD!
I CANNOT LABLE MYSELF: "Man of God". Only GOD CAN, and He does it like this.... Romans 8:16... God's Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit of adoption...And this He does even through WORKS... HIS WORKS as detailed in 1 Cor 12... The gifts! No gift, no witness of HIS SPIRIT! I have no gift YET, or do you think I have one already? Is it maybe.. A word of knowledge, or wisdom, that the world CANNOT receive? You decide.
Consumed God told me to ask the people this.... ARE YOU LIVING OUT GOD'S WORD?... Nobody has to answer, take it to God! You answer God, and you ask God to bear withness with you!!!!
I thank every one of you, that you read the Word of God, and I pray that Father God will UNITE us all in HIS SON JESUS! Amen!
 
Feb 17, 2010
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Oh I find sins of the flesh is the easy ones to lay down, it is the sins of the MIND... Those are the ones I REALLY NEED to be FREED FROM! Jesus I know you will also take them away for and from me! Thank You Jesus that you are setting me free! Lord help us all! And SAVE us all from this ugly world and sin! AMEN!
 
C

Consumed

Guest
Cobus, as a encouraging reminder to you brother, you call out Abba- Father because of His spirit in you, your not just a man of God but a son of the most High Living True God.

Battlefield is the mind lol daily to choose who's winning yet it's already been won, we just need to take thoughts captive and hold them up to Gods word. I know you know all this, like I said, just to encourage you on your walk
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Thank you for the Question Zone! As you know I have not labled one person EVER but muself! I also have not EVER labled me WRONGLY! I am a sinner, and not part of the Kingdom of God! There my lable says SINNER!!!Or actually my lable says:..."OLD SINNER FOR SAE! PRICED DOWN TO THREE DROPS OF THE BLOOB OF JESUS!!!" So any person that will help me get the three drops of Jesus' blood can bye me for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN!!!
!
Cobus:
there is a core doctrine (a reality) in the Christian faith (reality).

it is called IMPUTATION.

forget about our sin for a moment (NO I DON'T PROMOTE SIN, OKAY?) and consider what God ALONE has already done.

God made Jesus to be sin (though He never sinned)...then He poured out His wrath on Jesus in your place.

at the same time, He IMPUTED, or TRANSFERRED to your account the PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS AND OBEDIENT LIFE JESUS LIVED.

Pyromaniacs: The Ground of Justification and the Imputation of Christ's Active Obedience

please understand what God alone has done.

without FAITH it is impossible to please God.

the object of our faith IS JESUS CHRIST, and His FINISHED WORK

without this Great Exchange on BOTH COUNTS, no amount of pure living even now can help you.

REST IN JESUS.

IT IS FINISHED.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Thoughts in the mind are not sins. Sinful thoughts that are cherished in the mind until they corrupt the heart and become
the effection of it and come out in your life in sinful actions are the sins.

Where it says Jesus was tempted in every way like us yet without sin, meant the thoughts came over the airwaves
but He took them captive and made His choices from His heart whos effection was to do the Fathers business.
 
May 2, 2011
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Cobus:
there is a core doctrine (a reality) in the Christian faith (reality).

it is called IMPUTATION.

forget about our sin for a moment (NO I DON'T PROMOTE SIN, OKAY?) and consider what God ALONE has already done.

God made Jesus to be sin (though He never sinned)...then He poured out His wrath on Jesus in your place.

at the same time, He IMPUTED, or TRANSFERRED to your account the PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS AND OBEDIENT LIFE JESUS LIVED.

Pyromaniacs: The Ground of Justification and the Imputation of Christ's Active Obedience

please understand what God alone has done.

without FAITH it is impossible to please God.

the object of our faith IS JESUS CHRIST, and His FINISHED WORK

without this Great Exchange on BOTH COUNTS, no amount of pure living even now can help you.

REST IN JESUS.

IT IS FINISHED.
From the article - Pyromaniacs: The Ground of Justification and the Imputation of Christ's Active Obedience

"My dear brethren, do not doubt the imputed righteousness of Jesus
Christ, whatever cavillers may say. Remember that you must have
a righteousness. It is this which the law requires. I do not read that
the law made with our first parents required suffering; it did
demand it as a penalty after its breach; but the righteousness of the
law required not suffering, but obedience. Suffering would not
release us from the duty of obeying. Lost souls in hell are still under
the law, and their woes and pangs if completely endured would
never justify them. Obedience, and obedience alone, can justify, ..."


What Spurgeon is saying is that Jesus set the example of righteousness and because of
HIS Obedience, we have a righteous STANDARD - a new flagship, a new WAY, a New
Creation.

We are still called to obedience. The 'imputation' of righteousness is a new model, based
on Jesus and his teaching and calling.

The Imputation is not a payment once for all, other than the standard set. The Payment
of his death is the end of the legal Way, the end of Mithra, the end of Religion. The
payment is a down payment
, not a complete payment. The salvation is temporary while
magnificent. It is the fireman who saves the person from a burning building, or the
lifeguard or coast guard who (temporarily) "Saves" a person or sinking ship from
drowning in the sea of iniquity. Yet, the sea remains, the danger remains, the probability
of another fire, another mishap at sea is very real.

Some have been thrown into the sea or fire, some have fallen in by ignorance, some think
they can take on the sea or fire.

Spurgeon continues - " I do not enter into life by virtue of his sufferings
—those deliver me from death, those purge me from filthiness, but,
entering the enjoyments of the life eternal must be the result of
obedience; ..."


"Coming to a Saving Knowledge" is from the "Free Gift" not of salvation, which like the
fireman or coast guard occurs once to bring us to a saving knowledge. The Free Gift is the
Safety and Operation manual and Field Guide, on how to learn not to burn, how to avoid
starting or being a victim of the fire, how to avoid drowning or a shipwreck.

Are you reading the Safety and Operation manual, are you reading the Field Guide of THE
WAY -- The Gospels of Jesus and his followers? We must READ and HEED in order to be
saved, and we must walk the path of righteousness continually.


Ephesians1:13 - 14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of
promise
, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased
possession
, unto the praise of his glory.

The Greek word for "earnest" is arrabon. When taken in the context of our understanding
of a glorious wedding coming, it is a word packed with meaning. Vine's Expository
Dictionary of New Testament Words
comments:

Originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase
was not completed,
[arrabon] was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In
general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used
only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the divine
"pledge" of all their future blessedness, . . . particularly of their eternal inheritance.

Then comes this final sentence: "In modern Greek arrabona is an 'engagement ring."

An engagement promise, signified, or sealed if you will, by a ring, is
hardly a marriage ceremony which is yet to come. And a marriage
ceremony, just like a Baptismal Ceremony is hardly a life walk, but
also a sign and pledge of a life commitment, a daily walk.


I wish that Spurgeon were here in Christian Chat forum to discuss this more. This
particular writing/sermon is a bit restricted, and I can see how Spurgeon or anyone could
mis-use the concepts of Justification and try to ignore sanctification. I can see how
Spurgeon, in the seat of the devil in the UK might have had to be very careful, and yet it
was he who published "The Downgrade Controversy". This is the twist of Calvinism of it's
time, that is leading the Baptists to think on Slavery and Sharia Law -- one has to hide the
fact of the laity-general being ignorant if not arrogant in most such Religions. The
preacher rides the religion, the religion's laity-general thinks they are righteous
, and the
downgrade continues ...

You see, preachers can't interact, they can only make statements. Today those
statements are made to a camera or a microphone (mike). There is no ability to interact,
to question, to proceed deeper and further. Such simple sermons are often used to
mislead, twist, distort, confuse. To place a VEIL over the ABYSS between man and God,
allowing some to falsely think they have crossed the divide ...
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
Be ye perfect is a command.....it is sustained by continuous obedience to the word of God after salvation.
It is good to be obedient

However, pride is very sneaky.
and if we are not careful we could( in our minds and or hearts) glorify our perfection in obedience to God above of the grace of God

I think that was the point of this thread
 
May 2, 2011
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Main Entry: covenant
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: pact, promise
Synonyms: agreement, arrangement, bargain, bond, commitment, compact, concordat,
contract, convention, deal, deed, dicker, handshake, papers, stipulation, transaction,
treaty, trust

Antonyms: disagreement

Reference (Link): -->> Covenant Synonyms, Covenant Antonyms | Thesaurus.com


The Elements of a Contract


Typically, in order to be enforceable, a contract must involve the following elements;

* Meeting of the Minds
* Offer and Acceptance
* Mutual Consideration
* Performance or Delivery
* Good Faith
* No Violation of Public Policy

A "Meeting of the Minds" (Mutual Consent (Specific Purpose))

The parties to the contract have a mutual understanding of what the contract covers. For
example, in a contract for the sale of a "mustang", the buyer thinks he will obtain a car
and the seller believes he is contracting to sell a horse, there is no meeting of the minds
and the contract will likely be held unenforceable.

Offer and Acceptance

The contract involves an offer (or more than one offer) to another party, who accepts the
offer. For example, in a contract for the sale of a piano, the seller may offer the piano to
the buyer for $1,000.00. The buyer's acceptance of that offer is a necessary part of
creating a binding contract for the sale of the piano.

Please note that a counter-offer is not an acceptance, and will typically be treated as a
rejection of the offer. For example, if the buyer counter-offers to purchase the piano for
$800.00, that typically counts as a rejection of the original offer for sale. If the seller
accepts the counter-offer, a contract may be completed. However, if the seller rejects the
counter-offer, the buyer will not ordinarily be entitled to enforce the prior $1,000.00 price
if the seller decides either to raise the price or to sell the piano to somebody else.

Mutual Consideration (The mutual exchange of something of value)

In order to be valid, the parties to a contract must exchange something of value. In the
case of the sale of a piano, the buyer receives something of value in the form of the piano,
and the seller receives money.

While the validity of consideration may be subject to attack on the basis that it is illusory
(e.g., one party receives only what the other party was already obligated to provide), or
that there is a failure of consideration (e.g., the consideration received by one party is
essentially worthless), these defenses will not let a party to a contract escape the
consequences of bad negotiation. For example, if a seller enters into a contract to sell a
piano for $100, and later gets an offer from somebody else for $1,000, the seller can't
revoke the contract on the basis that the piano was worth a lot more than he bargained
to receive.

Performance or Delivery

In order to be enforceable, the action contemplated by the contract must be completed.
For example, if the purchaser of a piano pays the $1,000 purchase price, he can enforce
the contract to require the delivery of the piano. However, unless the contract provides
that delivery will occur before payment, the buyer may not be able to enforce the
contract if he does not "perform" by paying the $1,000. Similarly, again depending upon
the contract terms, the seller may not be able to enforce the contract without first
delivering the piano.

In a typical "breach of contract" action, the party alleging the breach will recite that it
performed all of its duties under the contract, whereas the other party failed to perform
its duties or obligations.

Additionally, the following elements may factor into the enforceability of any contract:

Good Faith

It is implicit within all contracts that the parties are acting in good faith. For example, if
the seller of a "mustang" knows that the buyer thinks he is purchasing a car, but secretly
intends to sell the buyer a horse, the seller is not acting in good faith and the contract will
not be enforceable.

No Violation of Public Policy (Lawful Purpose)

In order to be enforceable, a contract cannot violate "public policy". For example, if the
subject matter of a contract is illegal, you cannot enforce the contract. A contract for the
sale of illegal drugs, for example, violates public policy and is not enforceable.

Please note that public policy can shift. Traditionally, many states refused to honor
gambling debts incurred in other jurisdictions on public policy grounds. However, as more
and more states have permitted gambling within their own borders, that policy has
mostly been abandoned and gambling debts from legal enterprises are now typically
enforceable. (A "bookie" might not be able to enforce a debt arising from an illegal
gambling enterprise, but a legal casino will now typically be able to enforce its debt.)
Similarly, it used to be legal to sell "switchblade kits" through the U.S. mail, but that
practice is now illegal. Contracts for the interstate sale of such kits were no longer
enforceable following that change in the law.

Reference (Link): -->> Contract Law - An Introduction.


Under the common law a covenant was distinguished from an ordinary contract by the
presence of a seal. Because the presence of a seal indicated an unusual solemnity in the
promises made in a covenant, the common law would enforce a covenant even in the
absence of consideration. A Covenant is also used to describe a contract or a legally
binding promise.

Reference (Link): -->> Covenant (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
Jul 3, 2011
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Be ye perfect is a command.....it is sustained by continuous obedience to the word of God after salvation.
It is good to be obedient

However, pride is very sneaky.
and if we are not careful we could( in our minds and or hearts) glorify our perfection in obedience to God above of the grace of God
Very true
I think that was the point of this thread
Sorry but the point of this thread was to say that it is impossible to obey God, and those that think they can are heretics.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
Very true
Sorry but the point of this thread was to say that it is impossible to obey God, and those that think they can are heretics.
no it really is not 4runner but your pride has blinded you to that fact.

the point of this thread is to encourage people that God will love them no matter what. that God's love is unconditional and that they don't need to be perfect before reaching out and listening to His voice that says that He loves them.

the point of this thread is to tell people that people make mistakes but not to give up but pray in humbleness to GOD for His forgivness and cleansing and asking God to help them overcome. that God will NEVER reject them as the world may have done. that God's love is unconditionally and He does NOT take it back but gives it to people because of His mercy and grace.

I pray that you repent and and listen to the words of your brethren and not place ideas and words into their mouths they do not speak or believe. I pray that you see how you are wounding those you should be helping to heal and build up. I pray that everyone would listen to God's voice more and their flesh and pride less and I hope I have brethren who will pray the same and help me see when I become prideful and hurtful with my words.
 
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Jul 3, 2011
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no it really is not 4runner but your pride has blinded you to that fact.
You better read the op again. It is surprising to me, how many people respond to something without the context of what is really being discussed
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
Very true
Sorry but the point of this thread was to say that it is impossible to obey God, and those that think they can are heretics.
I did not get that from what the person said, but if that what was meant or not meant...maybe the threader should clarify again.

Are you infact saying:
"It is impossible to obey God?
"
because the bible said it is only impossible to please God without faith...

For the record: I believe we have the power to obey God
 
Jul 3, 2011
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I did not get that from what the person said, but if that what was meant or not meant...maybe the threader should clarify again.

Are you infact saying:
"It is impossible to obey God?
"
because the bible said it is only impossible to please God without faith...

For the record: I believe we have the power to obey God
Me too sister ;)
 

jandian

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2011
772
11
18
Well thanks be to God who gives us the victory.......
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
From the article - Pyromaniacs: The Ground of Justification and the Imputation of Christ's Active Obedience

"My dear brethren, do not doubt the imputed righteousness of Jesus
Christ, whatever cavillers may say. Remember that you must have
a righteousness. It is this which the law requires. I do not read that
the law made with our first parents required suffering; it did
demand it as a penalty after its breach; but the righteousness of the
law required not suffering, but obedience. Suffering would not
release us from the duty of obeying. Lost souls in hell are still under
the law, and their woes and pangs if completely endured would
never justify them. Obedience, and obedience alone, can justify, ..."

What Spurgeon is saying is that Jesus set the example of righteousness and because of
HIS Obedience, we have a righteous STANDARD - a new flagship, a new WAY, a New
Creation.
JESUS WAS OUR EXAMPLE?

i see a whole lot of typing and a whole lot of human logic.

what's that got to do with the Biblical doctrine of RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED BY FAITH?
in fact, if we don't get this right, we have no sound soteriology whatsoever.

i find it shocking and sad that this core tenet of Christiantiy is missing today. but i'm seeing that no matter how many times the truth is presented that God Himself has provided both a Sacrifice for Himself, and has ordained the means by His Own Counsel whereby He justifes the ungodly, some people just HATE THE TRUE GOSPEL...i don't mean you DA i just mean in general.

why is the imputed righteousness of Christ so despised? there's no other way to be saved.

Galatians 3:6
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Phillipians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 9:30
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

what part of this don't we believe? have we even read it?

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say was gained bya Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”


δικαιουντα verb - present active participle - accusative singular masculine
dikaioo dik-ah-yo'-o: to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent -- free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

λογιζεται verb - present middle or passive deponent indicative - third person singular
logizomai log-id'-zom-ahee: to take an inventory, i.e. estimate -- conclude, (ac-)count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).

~

Imputed righteousness is a concept in Christian theology that proposes that the "righteousness of Christ ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith." [1]:106 It is on the basis of this "alien" (i.e. from the outside) righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification. Thus this doctrine is practically synonymous with justification by faith.

the Protestant Reformers came to understand human acceptance by God according to a "forensic" model, in which God declares humanity not guilty, even though they were in a moral sense still guilty of sin. However the Reformers continued to accept the traditional concept of righteousness. What changed is that the righteousness was seen as Christ's, which was credited ("imputed") to Christians by God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_righteousness


Imputed vs. infused
Both imputed and infused righteousness agree that God is the source of our righteousness, and that it is a gift that humans cannot deserve. Both models agree that God's activity results in humans being transformed, so that over time they become more obedient to God, and sin is progressively defeated in their lives. At times this agreement has been obscured, with Protestants accusing Catholics of believing that humans can earn salvation,[citation needed] and Catholics accusing Protestants of believing that Christians need not have their lives transformed.[citation needed]

The distinction includes at least two areas:

1 How justification is maintained, and the effect of sinAccording to imputed righteousness, the righteousness by which humans are made acceptable to God, remains "alien." Since their acceptability is based on God's actions, nothing humans do can forfeit their status as accepted. Sin can result in God treating them as disobedient, but not in God disowning them.Protestants differ on the question of whether it is possible for humans to forfeit justification. But if they do, it is by ceasing to have faith in God, not by any individual sin.Catholics hold that righteousness comes to be present in humans, and that the continuing status of acceptance is based on this. Humans have a responsibility to cooperate with God in maintaining and strengthening the presence of this "grace" in their lives. Certain serious sins (called "mortal sins") can result in its loss. [4]Thus in the case of serious sins, Protestants believe they continue to be treated as God's children, but as disobedient ones that may require discipline, while Catholics believe that the bond with God is largely severed, and restoring it requires "a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation" [5]

2 Merit

Protestants have avoided speaking of humans as having any "merit" before God. Because all justifying righteousness is alien, humans do not deserve anything from God. Because Catholics hold that righteousness comes to be present in humans, humans can in a certain sense merit reward. Of course any such merit is ultimately due to God's activity.Protestants and Catholics agree that non-Christians can do things that are worthwhile. They do not merit salvation, but some Protestant writers have spoken of them as reflecting "civil righteousness." [6]While there are significant differences between imputed and infused righteousness, they can be regarded to a certain extent as differences in emphasis that are potentially complementary. Imputed righteousness emphases the fact the salvation is a gift from God, and dependent upon him, while infused righteousness emphasizes the responsibility of humans to cooperate with God's actions in transforming their lives. The position that they are potentially complementary is taken by a joint declaration of the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church. [7] However enough difference remain, both in doctrine and in practical consequences, that not everyone agrees that they can be regarded as complementary. [8]
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
so now is the discussion about rather salvation is through the imputed righteousness of God or if we need to be infused with the Holy Spirit and live righteous lives?

I thought we needed both. that salvation happens first and then because we are infused by the Holy Spirit we are able to live righteous lives.

thus the saying I was saved by Christ, I am being saved through Christ, and I will be saved upon Christ's return.

4runner, you don't have a clue about context and your continuing condescending tone is becoming offensive. :(
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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so now is the discussion about rather salvation is through the imputed righteousness of God or if we need to be infused with the Holy Spirit and live righteous lives?

I thought we needed both. that salvation happens first and then because we are infused by the Holy Spirit we are able to live righteous lives.
1) JUSTIFICATION (a FULL AND COMPLETE AQUITTAL OF ALL CHARGES....NOT GUILTY...NEVER WAS....AQUITTED) IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST.
(THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST IMPUTED OR TRANSFERRED TO THE UNGODLY BUT REPENTENT SINNERS ACCOUNT).

"This is My Beloved SON in Whom I am Well Pleased".....God is pleased with JESUS.

2) SANCTIFICATION - ongoing, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, the believer is scourged, corrected, convicted, taught, comforted...CONFORMED, TRANSFORMED.

ONLY God can justify men. He does it by placing the Righteousness of the Life of Christ TO THE SINNER'S ACCOUNT. this has to be done APART FROM THE LAW for men, because we have all transgressed the law and continue to do so. JESUS FULFILLED THE LAW.

this is not a pardon, it is not probation. it is a FULL AQUITTAL.
 
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