The Heresy of Perfectionism
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C
Jesus is perfect in every way, we are hidden in Christ, hidden in that perfection before God. Meanwhile the work of the cross thru sanctification is in process by us coming to Him daily for our bread, the bread of life. Paul made clear even he hadn't fully obtained total perfection yet being in Christ it is assured, hence trial and tribulations. Not how we start it's how we finish.
We are perfect in Christ because of Christ Jesus
We are perfect in Christ because of Christ Jesus
what?
poor Jesus!
He did all He could and still He couldn't make flesh men perfect.
too bad God never came up with a Judicial Plan by His Own Counsel whereby He could satisfy His requirement for absolute and final punishment for the ungodly man's SIN (a single trangression of His Law = LAKE OF FIRE), while at the same time make a Forensic imputation (FULL AQUITTAL, PERFECTLY RIGHT) of the Righteousness of Christ to that ungodly man's account....
maybe He could have, at the right time while men were yet hating Him, dead in their trepasses and sins delivered up His Only Son Jesus; make Him to BE SIN though He knew none; pour out His wrath on Jesus; forgive repentent men's sins and make them perfectly right before Him because JESUS IS PERFECT and already DIED and ROSE.
hmmm....i wonder if God is disappointed with Jesus, what with Him doing He all He could to make men perfect, but epically failing, since apparently He will lose some His Father gave Him.
poor Jesus!
He did all He could and still He couldn't make flesh men perfect.
too bad God never came up with a Judicial Plan by His Own Counsel whereby He could satisfy His requirement for absolute and final punishment for the ungodly man's SIN (a single trangression of His Law = LAKE OF FIRE), while at the same time make a Forensic imputation (FULL AQUITTAL, PERFECTLY RIGHT) of the Righteousness of Christ to that ungodly man's account....
maybe He could have, at the right time while men were yet hating Him, dead in their trepasses and sins delivered up His Only Son Jesus; make Him to BE SIN though He knew none; pour out His wrath on Jesus; forgive repentent men's sins and make them perfectly right before Him because JESUS IS PERFECT and already DIED and ROSE.
hmmm....i wonder if God is disappointed with Jesus, what with Him doing He all He could to make men perfect, but epically failing, since apparently He will lose some His Father gave Him.
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Process to Perfection is the Doctrine of SANCTIFICATION.
Coming to the Knowledge of sin and it's consequences and the understanding of an
alternate path is called the Doctrine of JUSTIFICATION.
The issue with perfection is that Paul shows in Philippians 3 that even a perfect Pharisee is
nothing. Why, because he ties to, relates to, attaches with, or IDENTIFIES with his
STATION or OFFICE. This breeds Pride. Pride goeth before Destruction, a Haughty SPIRIT
before a fall.
What Sproul is trying to get at is that we seek perfection, take it to a worldly or material
realm (an OFFICE or Building is a material thing) and we begin to slide away.
When you spend 40 days in the desert fasting, perhaps we can talk more about
PERFECTION.
Sin is both personal and societal -- we must also address societal sin, for that too can lead
to the loss of Salvation. We need to get out of our OFFICE or STATION and take it to the
world and it's systems -- The Money Changers, the Scribes (media of today), the
Pharisees (the LAW and RELIGION of today). We need to be wary of false prophets and
wolves in sheep's clothing, serpents, vipers and lions going about seeking to see whom
they can devour.
Sproul specifically mentions Wesley (from Wesley to Methodists, the UMC). I added
Mormon Perfectionism, but it applies to any sorts of attachments and duality.
I think Zone stumbled across a good article, let's not get caught in our own duality.
Coming to the Knowledge of sin and it's consequences and the understanding of an
alternate path is called the Doctrine of JUSTIFICATION.
The issue with perfection is that Paul shows in Philippians 3 that even a perfect Pharisee is
nothing. Why, because he ties to, relates to, attaches with, or IDENTIFIES with his
STATION or OFFICE. This breeds Pride. Pride goeth before Destruction, a Haughty SPIRIT
before a fall.
What Sproul is trying to get at is that we seek perfection, take it to a worldly or material
realm (an OFFICE or Building is a material thing) and we begin to slide away.
When you spend 40 days in the desert fasting, perhaps we can talk more about
PERFECTION.
Sin is both personal and societal -- we must also address societal sin, for that too can lead
to the loss of Salvation. We need to get out of our OFFICE or STATION and take it to the
world and it's systems -- The Money Changers, the Scribes (media of today), the
Pharisees (the LAW and RELIGION of today). We need to be wary of false prophets and
wolves in sheep's clothing, serpents, vipers and lions going about seeking to see whom
they can devour.
Sproul specifically mentions Wesley (from Wesley to Methodists, the UMC). I added
Mormon Perfectionism, but it applies to any sorts of attachments and duality.
I think Zone stumbled across a good article, let's not get caught in our own duality.
E
Yeah they don't get it. John is talking to believers. He even includes himself in his statement. "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and truth is not in us" WHy would John include himself in this statement if it were possible for John himself to be sinless?
People will read the word anyway they want to make themselves right. It is sad..
People will read the word anyway they want to make themselves right. It is sad..
E
I find it interesting that Jesus himself said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees we have no hope. Even he declared that according to the law they were righteous people. Yet they still fell short. Paul realized it when he, who was a pharisee of pharisees. declared himself to be one the the chief sinners. Pride is a dangerous thing. If we actually look at scripture and which sin God speaks against most. We see it would be pride. More so than even murder adultry or any of the other sins people think are "bad sins" Pride trumps them all. Because pride keeps us from God and his truth.
Now I want to clarify first, to avoid debate, 
that we are to avoid sin.
But if there is anything learned from Jesus, the only perfect is Jesus.
Jesus calls us to set flesh, self , aside, from what Ive learned this means both good and bad.
We are not to live under condemnation, or self glory of perfection.
We are to live in Jesus.
Letting His spirit bring all that is Gods will in each of us.
Why else grace? If we be perfect, there would be no need for grace.
God bless.
pickles
that we are to avoid sin.But if there is anything learned from Jesus, the only perfect is Jesus.
Jesus calls us to set flesh, self , aside, from what Ive learned this means both good and bad.
We are not to live under condemnation, or self glory of perfection.
We are to live in Jesus.
Letting His spirit bring all that is Gods will in each of us.
Why else grace?
If we be perfect, there would be no need for grace. God bless.
pickles
AMEN!
i'm tucking that one away.
thank you
z
* eternally-gratefull;I find it interesting that Jesus himself said that unless our
righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees we have no hope. Even he declared that
according to the law they were righteous people.
Stuck in their office, any office, Pharisees or ourselves tend to ignore the world, or
societal sin. Our government(or religion) will kill us (take our salvation) if we let it. The
Weeds of worldliness and materialism will grow and choke out all good / fruitful growth.
Therefore the best Pharisee (teacher, lawyer, judge, media person) does nothing to help
address the root problems. There is more than legalism or government. Righteousness,
like Sin, is both personal and societal, to ignore or neglect societal sin is unrighteousness
and loses the garden and all good growth.
*eternally-gratefull; If we actually look at scripture and which sin God speaks against
most. We see it would be pride. More so than even murder adultry or any of the other sins
people think are "bad sins" Pride trumps them all. Because pride keeps us from God and
his truth.
Seven Demons, Seven Deadly Sins Reference (Link): http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/27587-seven-demons-seven-deadly-sins.html
P.ride, E.nvy, G.luttony, S.loth -- L.ust, A.varice, W.rath -- PEGS LAW
THE WAY to overcome PEGS LAW?? VISA LE MC ...
VISA LE MC
Right VIEW
Right INTENTION
Right SPEECH
Right ACTION
Right LIVELIHOOD
Right EFFORT
Right MINDFULNESS
Right CONCENTRATION
VISA LE MC -- Don't leave home without it.
righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees we have no hope. Even he declared that
according to the law they were righteous people.
Stuck in their office, any office, Pharisees or ourselves tend to ignore the world, or
societal sin. Our government(or religion) will kill us (take our salvation) if we let it. The
Weeds of worldliness and materialism will grow and choke out all good / fruitful growth.
Therefore the best Pharisee (teacher, lawyer, judge, media person) does nothing to help
address the root problems. There is more than legalism or government. Righteousness,
like Sin, is both personal and societal, to ignore or neglect societal sin is unrighteousness
and loses the garden and all good growth.
*eternally-gratefull; If we actually look at scripture and which sin God speaks against
most. We see it would be pride. More so than even murder adultry or any of the other sins
people think are "bad sins" Pride trumps them all. Because pride keeps us from God and
his truth.
Seven Demons, Seven Deadly Sins Reference (Link): http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/27587-seven-demons-seven-deadly-sins.html
P.ride, E.nvy, G.luttony, S.loth -- L.ust, A.varice, W.rath -- PEGS LAW
THE WAY to overcome PEGS LAW?? VISA LE MC ...
VISA LE MC
Right VIEW
Right INTENTION
Right SPEECH
Right ACTION
Right LIVELIHOOD
Right EFFORT
Right MINDFULNESS
Right CONCENTRATION
VISA LE MC -- Don't leave home without it.
Zone and the rest, you can really go on talking what you like. Really, i'm so done with this thread .. You can also believe what you want .. But before i leave, i'd like to say one thing
I'm not saying we have to be Perfect, saying that you're Perfect is utter Pride. I'm saying it is possible to live a sinless life because Jesus did. And he is our example
Tanx and Bye
.. You can also believe what you want .. But before i leave, i'd like to say one thingI'm not saying we have to be Perfect, saying that you're Perfect is utter Pride. I'm saying it is possible to live a sinless life because Jesus did. And he is our example
Tanx and Bye
because you are declared clean and are continually cleansed as you confess?
or because you got a second baptism that burned out your sin nature?
or because you can now fulfill the Law?
or is it because the Holy Spirit indwells you, you are now God Incarnate?
i'm not going to argue with you. i'll just watch for your answer.
or because you got a second baptism that burned out your sin nature?
or because you can now fulfill the Law?
or is it because the Holy Spirit indwells you, you are now God Incarnate?
i'm not going to argue with you. i'll just watch for your answer.
T
Amen, Amen, Amen!! .. God bless you, i love your post, and i'm gonna write it!.. You just edified me!.. God bless, Yes, God bless.. This should be the purpose of threads, to edify people.. And Laodicea, i'm also going to write down your last post.
God bless you both especially, And Zone and the rest, God bless you too.. Cobus, more grace, more annointing, more understanding of the word, closer walk with the Holy Spirit.And many more good things be unto you, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.. Amen .. 4runner, you're also blessed
.. God bless you, i love your post, and i'm gonna write it!.. You just edified me!.. God bless, Yes, God bless.. This should be the purpose of threads, to edify people.. And Laodicea, i'm also going to write down your last post. God bless you both especially, And Zone and the rest, God bless you too
.. Cobus, more grace, more annointing, more understanding of the word, closer walk with the Holy Spirit.And many more good things be unto you, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.. Amen .. 4runner, you're also blessed
F
For me, it's not about wanting to be perfect or sinless but to understand and apply the promises of God for the believer to my life so that I may live my life pleasing to Him and not my own carnal desires If scripture says that God is faithful to provide the escape when we are tempted, then it must be founded in truth. The only question that needs to be asked is how to apply this truth. Isn't that what faith is?
A
It makes my eyes fog up to hear folks talk about reaching perfection. I haven't the power to imagine the walk,
the prayer life. Or how the person looks at and fellowships with the rest of the body of Christ. How they really view God. How they bypass
the journey of sanctification, and the developing of their relationship with their Father and Lord. Ill admit iv'e been
deceived many times and in many ways. Iv'e felt worthless and beyond hope. Just haven't been there. I'm not at all
surprised to see the division and emotion that comes from it. Like a sword. It appears.
the prayer life. Or how the person looks at and fellowships with the rest of the body of Christ. How they really view God. How they bypass
the journey of sanctification, and the developing of their relationship with their Father and Lord. Ill admit iv'e been
deceived many times and in many ways. Iv'e felt worthless and beyond hope. Just haven't been there. I'm not at all
surprised to see the division and emotion that comes from it. Like a sword. It appears.
Yes
Your sin nature is destroyed at your new birth. Second Baptism is something you made up.
Through the indwelling of Christ, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit if we will walk in the Spirit
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
empowerment of the Holy Spirit we can if we walk in the Spirit
This is absurd, but we are to be as Christ in this world
1st John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Through the indwelling of Christ, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit if we will walk in the Spirit
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
empowerment of the Holy Spirit we can if we walk in the Spirit
This is absurd, but we are to be as Christ in this world
1st John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.