The Heresy of Perfectionism

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A

Abiding

Guest
#61
Amen, thats what my bible said too. :)
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#62
Jesus is perfect in every way, we are hidden in Christ, hidden in that perfection before God. Meanwhile the work of the cross thru sanctification is in process by us coming to Him daily for our bread, the bread of life. Paul made clear even he hadn't fully obtained total perfection yet being in Christ it is assured, hence trial and tribulations. Not how we start it's how we finish.
We are perfect in Christ because of Christ Jesus
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#63
This is how people twist the Truth, bu not considering ALL the Bible! And is God commanded us to be perfect in Matthew 5:48, then He will NEVER accept excuses for us not being perfect. HE DID ALL HE COULD TO GET YOU PERFECT! If you do not want it fine, fortunately nobody has to answer for your way of reasoning but yourself!
1 john 1: 8.9 and 10. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
what?
poor Jesus!

He did all He could and still He couldn't make flesh men perfect.

too bad God never came up with a Judicial Plan by His Own Counsel whereby He could satisfy His requirement for absolute and final punishment for the ungodly man's SIN (a single trangression of His Law = LAKE OF FIRE), while at the same time make a Forensic imputation (FULL AQUITTAL, PERFECTLY RIGHT) of the Righteousness of Christ to that ungodly man's account....

maybe He could have, at the right time while men were yet hating Him, dead in their trepasses and sins delivered up His Only Son Jesus; make Him to BE SIN though He knew none; pour out His wrath on Jesus; forgive repentent men's sins and make them perfectly right before Him because JESUS IS PERFECT and already DIED and ROSE.

hmmm....i wonder if God is disappointed with Jesus, what with Him doing He all He could to make men perfect, but epically failing, since apparently He will lose some His Father gave Him.
 
Last edited:
May 2, 2011
1,134
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#64
So now we are in 1 John 1. Ok let us look at the verse and the two following then
please see the process to perfection
...
Process to Perfection is the Doctrine of SANCTIFICATION.

Coming to the Knowledge of sin and it's consequences and the understanding of an
alternate path is called the Doctrine of JUSTIFICATION.

The issue with perfection is that Paul shows in Philippians 3 that even a perfect Pharisee is
nothing. Why, because he ties to, relates to, attaches with, or IDENTIFIES with his
STATION or OFFICE. This breeds Pride. Pride goeth before Destruction, a Haughty SPIRIT
before a fall.

What Sproul is trying to get at is that we seek perfection, take it to a worldly or material
realm (an OFFICE or Building is a material thing) and we begin to slide away.

When you spend 40 days in the desert fasting, perhaps we can talk more about
PERFECTION.

Sin is both personal and societal -- we must also address societal sin, for that too can lead
to the loss of Salvation.
We need to get out of our OFFICE or STATION and take it to the
world and it's systems -- The Money Changers, the Scribes (media of today), the
Pharisees (the LAW and RELIGION of today). We need to be wary of false prophets and
wolves in sheep's clothing, serpents, vipers and lions going about seeking to see whom
they can devour.


Sproul specifically mentions Wesley (from Wesley to Methodists, the UMC). I added
Mormon Perfectionism, but it applies to any sorts of attachments and duality.


I think Zone stumbled across a good article, let's not get caught in our own duality.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#65
what?
poor Jesus!

He did all He could and still He couldn't make flesh men perfect.

too bad God never came up with a Judicial Plan by His Own Counsel whereby He could satisfy His requirement for absolute and final punishment for the ungodly man's SIN (a single trangression of His Law = LAKE OF FIRE), while at the same time make a Forensic imputation (FULL AQUITTAL, PERFECTLY RIGHT) of the Righteousness of Christ to that ungodly man's account....

maybe He could have, at the right time while men were yet hating Him, dead in their trepasses and sins delivered up His Only Son Jesus; make Him to BE SIN though He knew none; pour out His wrath on Jesus; forgive repentent men's sins and make them perfectly right before Him because JESUS IS PERFECT and already DIED and ROSE.

hmmm....i wonder if God is disappointed with Jesus, what with Him doing He all He could to make men perfect, but epically failing, since apparently He will lose some Hid Father gave Him.
Yeah they don't get it. John is talking to believers. He even includes himself in his statement. "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and truth is not in us" WHy would John include himself in this statement if it were possible for John himself to be sinless?

People will read the word anyway they want to make themselves right. It is sad..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#66
Process to Perfection is the Doctrine of SANCTIFICATION.

Coming to the Knowledge of sin and it's consequences and the understanding of an
alternate path is called the Doctrine of JUSTIFICATION.

The issue with perfection is that Paul shows in Philippians 3 that even a perfect Pharisee is
nothing. Why, because he ties to, relates to, attaches with, or IDENTIFIES with his
STATION or OFFICE. This breeds Pride. Pride goeth before Destruction, a Haughty SPIRIT
before a fall.

What Sproul is trying to get at is that we seek perfection, take it to a worldly or material
realm (an OFFICE or Building is a material thing) and we begin to slide away.

When you spend 40 days in the desert fasting, perhaps we can talk more about
PERFECTION.

Sin is both personal and societal -- we must also address societal sin, for that too can lead
to the loss of Salvation.
We need to get out of our OFFICE or STATION and take it to the
world and it's systems -- The Money Changers, the Scribes (media of today), the
Pharisees (the LAW and RELIGION of today). We need to be wary of false prophets and
wolves in sheep's clothing, serpents, vipers and lions going about seeking to see whom
they can devour.


Sproul specifically mentions Wesley (from Wesley to Methodists, the UMC). I added
Mormon Perfectionism, but it applies to any sorts of attachments and duality.


I think Zone stumbled across a good article, let's not get caught in our own duality.
I find it interesting that Jesus himself said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees we have no hope. Even he declared that according to the law they were righteous people. Yet they still fell short. Paul realized it when he, who was a pharisee of pharisees. declared himself to be one the the chief sinners. Pride is a dangerous thing. If we actually look at scripture and which sin God speaks against most. We see it would be pride. More so than even murder adultry or any of the other sins people think are "bad sins" Pride trumps them all. Because pride keeps us from God and his truth.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#67
Now I want to clarify first, to avoid debate, :) that we are to avoid sin.
But if there is anything learned from Jesus, the only perfect is Jesus.
Jesus calls us to set flesh, self , aside, from what Ive learned this means both good and bad.
We are not to live under condemnation, or self glory of perfection.
We are to live in Jesus.
Letting His spirit bring all that is Gods will in each of us.
Why else grace? :) If we be perfect, there would be no need for grace.
God bless.
pickles
Pickles!
AMEN!
i'm tucking that one away.
thank you
z
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#68
It is true that God wants us to be perfect

Matthew 5:48
(48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But it is Christ who gives us His perfect character

Isaiah 61:10
(10) I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.


We are not only saved by Christ death we are also saved by His life, He lived a perfect life for us which is transferred to us when we give our life to Him.

Romans 5:10
(10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
(21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Jesus took our sin and punishment and in exchange gave us His perfect righteousness.

1 John 1:9
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


When we confess and surrender to Him He cleanses us even though we may not feel it , but we need to have faith in His word.

Luke 7:50
(50) And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

After we have surrendered to Him which is a daily matter we become servants of righteousness

Romans 6:16-18
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


The only way to be perfect is to be given His righteousness. The only way to overcome is by surrender to Him.
aawww Lao.
thank you!

Solo Christo!
Soli Deo Gloria!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#69
Jesus is perfect in every way, we are hidden in Christ, hidden in that perfection before God. Meanwhile the work of the cross thru sanctification is in process by us coming to Him daily for our bread, the bread of life. Paul made clear even he hadn't fully obtained total perfection yet being in Christ it is assured, hence trial and tribulations. Not how we start it's how we finish.
We are perfect in Christ because of Christ Jesus
hi consumed:)
*hug*
zone
 
May 2, 2011
1,134
8
0
#70
* eternally-gratefull;I find it interesting that Jesus himself said that unless our
righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees we have no hope. Even he declared that
according to the law they were righteous people.

Stuck in their office, any office, Pharisees or ourselves tend to ignore the world, or
societal sin. Our government(or religion) will kill us (take our salvation) if we let it. The
Weeds of worldliness and materialism will grow and choke out all good / fruitful growth.

Therefore the best Pharisee (teacher, lawyer, judge, media person) does nothing to help
address the root problems. There is more than legalism or government. Righteousness,
like Sin, is both personal and societal, to ignore or neglect societal sin is unrighteousness
and loses the garden and all good growth.


*eternally-gratefull; If we actually look at scripture and which sin God speaks against
most. We see it would be pride. More so than even murder adultry or any of the other sins
people think are "bad sins" Pride trumps them all. Because pride keeps us from God and
his truth.

Seven Demons, Seven Deadly Sins Reference (Link): http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/27587-seven-demons-seven-deadly-sins.html

P.ride, E.nvy, G.luttony, S.loth -- L.ust, A.varice, W.rath -- PEGS LAW

THE WAY to overcome PEGS LAW?? VISA LE MC ...

VISA LE MC

Right VIEW
Right
INTENTION
Right
SPEECH
Right
ACTION

Right
LIVELIHOOD
Right
EFFORT

Right
MINDFULNESS
Right
CONCENTRATION

VISA LE MC -- Don't leave home without it.
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
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#72
Zone and the rest, you can really go on talking what you like. Really, i'm so done with this thread :).. You can also believe what you want :).. But before i leave, i'd like to say one thing

I'm not saying we have to be Perfect, saying that you're Perfect is utter Pride. I'm saying it is possible to live a sinless life because Jesus did. And he is our example :)

Tanx and Bye :)
Amen Tobby, not only that but it is Jesus who live inside of us enabling us to live as He did.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#73
hi Tobby.
if you do not understand God Incarnate, what can i say?
if you think you can be perfect, Jesus died for no reason.
most perfectionism beliefs come from charismatic experientialism.
Zone, it is obviously you that doesnt understand God incarnate. It is because He live, died, rose again, and now resides inside of us that we are able to live sinlessly.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#74
Zone, it is obviously you that doesnt understand God incarnate. It is because He live, died, rose again, and now resides inside of us that we are able to live sinlessly.
because you are declared clean and are continually cleansed as you confess?
or because you got a second baptism that burned out your sin nature?
or because you can now fulfill the Law?
or is it because the Holy Spirit indwells you, you are now God Incarnate?

i'm not going to argue with you. i'll just watch for your answer.
 
T

Tobby17

Guest
#75
Deadflesh WELL DONE!!! Paul never lied!Then why would he mention a lie of his? Or was it a lie? Let us see! Paul is preaching to people that are CALLED TO BE SAINTS! People like me! I am not even a saint yet, but hopefully God will also have grace on me and give me saintship and obedience to the faith! Faith is good and it can ONLY come from God. Now Paul says the things that he wants to do he does not and the things he does not want to do those he do! Is this true, or is Paul associating and having compassion with people that has not learned to endure yet? People like me? Paul was able like Jesus to talk to every person on his own level. And that is said in the milk and steak scripture! So when Paul preach to people on milk he had to come down in depth of the Word a bit. We all start by WANTING to do good but then sin, but that is not the end of the sermon Paul gave, altough MANY people get stuck there becasue of lost preachers! False teachers... Look how the sermon continues in Romans 7 and onwards... Paul says... Romans 7:24... OH wretched man that I am... WHO SHALL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH!!!!! Now who CAN AND WILL DELIVER YOU FROM ALL EVIL? If the flesh is evil, then Jesus was evil becasue He was also in the flesh! Nope the flesh and sin is NOT stronger than the Spirit of God! Now look how Romans 8 starts..... This is where saints end up! Called to be saints, is not saints yet they need to trust God for salvation from the "walk after the flesh"!
Romans 8 the whole chapter. It is all about HOW we get INTO the Spirit and how this once sinful flesh is QUICKENED!
People do not make this quickened flesh anything less than the same obedience Jesus showed! Then you make God less than what He is. Jesus is the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE in ALL quickened flesh! And it is the Spirit of GOD that quicken all flesh HE WANTS TOO!
How does God select the flesh HE WANTS TOO QUICKEN... The ones that ask Him for IT and believe they will get IT!
If you live after the flesh ye shall die! But if you lay down your fleshly wants, ye shall LIVE IN HIM! Plain and simple. As ong as i live in this flesh Jesus is not here YET! Some person think we get our glorification when Jesus will come for us... He is right.... But Jesus can come for me RIGHT NOW! Jesus can take my spirit to God right NOW! And then He can fill me with HIS SPIRIT! Then who lives in me? Who is in control of my flesh? Me or Jesus? If I am FILLED with Holy Spirit, who am I then? If I am filled with Holy Spirit, FILLED where am I? I cannot be filled with Holy Spirit if I am ALSO in me. If a vessel is filled with oil there is NO WATER in the vessel. If a vessel is filled with Water there is NO oil in the vessel. Simple! If I am filled with Holy Spirit I am FILLED with Holy Spirit, and there is no Cobus spirit there! Where is the Cobus spirit.... Like the Bible says... I am dead.... Colossians 3:3... For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
The only life I have now is NOT IN ME ANYMORE! GET THIS WISE ONES!!!! YOU ARE DEAD!!!!! YOU DIED FOR CHRIST!!! AND NOW YOUR LIFE IS HID WITH JESUS IN GOD!!!! Do you see that if God does not fill this body with a spirit then this soul and body will not breathe! If I am a quickened person, then it is the Spirit of God that is in me!!! And then it is God that type this! I have died, and dead people do not type letters or messages, but Jesus does, that is how we got a Bible! The Holy Spirit is BOTH JESUS AND FATHER! And Jesus said.... John 14:23... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Now!!! Jesus and Father in me and I in them, Perfectly ONE! That is what Jesus prayed for in John 17. That Father will make us ONE with Him. And again to say a person is ONE with God and still sin, is just crazy! God CANNOT sin and neither can ANY ONE IN HIM!
Paul could not sin becasue only Jesus lived in him. And Paul did not lie, he had compassion with the Romans! The CALLED TO BE SAINTS. The other Saints in the church of Hebrews, it is mentioned... HOLY BRETHREN, partakers of the heavenly calling.... HEAVENLY CALLING... From GOD! We are not called to be partakers of sin and this world.. we are called to be partakers of HEAVEN and PERFECTION!
God calls us all to be IN CHRIST JESUS! In Jesus is no sin! Not in sin!
This is ok, i just hope you will enjoy the FREEDOM Jesus offers... It even makes us free from our flesh! Jesus said if He makes free we are free indeed! I believe Him!
Amen, Amen, Amen!! :).. God bless you, i love your post, and i'm gonna write it!.. You just edified me!.. God bless, Yes, God bless.. This should be the purpose of threads, to edify people.. And Laodicea, i'm also going to write down your last post.

God bless you both especially, And Zone and the rest, God bless you too :).. Cobus, more grace, more annointing, more understanding of the word, closer walk with the Holy Spirit.And many more good things be unto you, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.. Amen :).. 4runner, you're also blessed :)
 
F

FireOnTheAltar

Guest
#76
For me, it's not about wanting to be perfect or sinless but to understand and apply the promises of God for the believer to my life so that I may live my life pleasing to Him and not my own carnal desires If scripture says that God is faithful to provide the escape when we are tempted, then it must be founded in truth. The only question that needs to be asked is how to apply this truth. Isn't that what faith is?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#77
It makes my eyes fog up to hear folks talk about reaching perfection. I haven't the power to imagine the walk,
the prayer life. Or how the person looks at and fellowships with the rest of the body of Christ. How they really view God. How they bypass
the journey of sanctification, and the developing of their relationship with their Father and Lord. Ill admit iv'e been
deceived many times and in many ways. Iv'e felt worthless and beyond hope. Just haven't been there. I'm not at all
surprised to see the division and emotion that comes from it. Like a sword. It appears.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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#78
It makes my eyes fog up to hear folks talk about reaching perfection. I haven't the power to imagine the walk.
If you could imagine it, God could accomplish it

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
 
Jul 3, 2011
2,417
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#79
because you are declared clean and are continually cleansed as you confess?
Yes
or because you got a second baptism that burned out your sin nature?
Your sin nature is destroyed at your new birth. Second Baptism is something you made up.
or because you can now fulfill the Law?
Through the indwelling of Christ, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit if we will walk in the Spirit
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

empowerment of the Holy Spirit we can if we walk in the Spirit


or is it because the Holy Spirit indwells you, you are now God Incarnate?
This is absurd, but we are to be as Christ in this world
1st John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#80
Exactly!, it certainly would have to be in my imagination. Just like 1 John 1:8 said.