The Immaculate Conception Error

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onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
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what nonsense you talk. my sinful nature is WHAT I AM. I am responsible for what I do. Thus I cannot blame my sinful nature' without blaming ME. It is I in my sinful nature who is guilty of sin. I cannot blame anything or anyone else.
Please refrain from using the expressions "LOL" and "Nonsense" in almost every post. These sarcastic and mocking expressions do not make your argument stronger.
my sinful nature is WHAT I AM.
Make up your mind! You just said your sinful nature was inherited from your mother(what she is), even before you entered consciousness....

Thus I cannot blame my sinful nature' without blaming ME.
What came first? Your sinful nature or you?

It is I in my sinful nature who is guilty of sin.
If you stand before God today, the only answer acceptable would be, "It is I." Period!
Why do you keep on tagging your "sinful nature" along? (See what the belief in OS has done to you?)

I cannot blame anything or anyone else
But all along, you are generously blaming some kind of nature that you inherited because of someone else's sin, that too before you were even capable of exercising your choice. Then you go on to call that nature your own. Contradictory and absurd!

Or are you saying that you are born without a free will or choice?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
Please refrain from using the expressions "LOL" and "Nonsense" in almost every post. These sarcastic and mocking expressions do not make your argument stronger.
Make up your mind! You just said your sinful nature was inherited from your mother(what she is), even before you entered consciousness....

What came first? Your sinful nature or you?

If you stand before God today, the only answer acceptable would be, "It is I." Period!
Why do you keep on tagging your "sinful nature" along? (See what the belief in OS has done to you?)

But all along, you are generously blaming some kind of nature that you inherited because of someone else's sin, that too before you were even capable of exercising your choice. Then you go on to call that nature your own. Contradictory and absurd!

Or are you saying that you are born without a free will or choice?
'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' Now that either means that we are blamed for Adam's sin or it means that as a consequence of that sin we became sinners by nature. DON'T DODGE THE QUESTION. WHICH IS YOUR CHOICE?

When you have answered that I will discuss with you further.!
 
B

BradC

Guest
I think the words you need or meant to say is that we have a sinful nature. Two entirely different things.

That is NOT a sin nature. We have a mortal nature that causes us to sin, thus we are sinful/sinners. Sin is NOT a state of being. It is the fundamental error of the Theory of Original Sin. No place in scripture does it ever say man has a sin nature.

Christ did not assume a sin nature, but did assume our mortal nature. He died so that He could give us life, to raise our mortal natures to immortality.
How does a mortal nature cause one to sin? Explain the nature of corruption that will put on incorruption. Corruption is separate and different from mortality. Can you please explain the difference?
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
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Hebrew poetry was not like English poetry. It stated FACTS. So it is YOU who needs to learn to rightly divide the word of God.

There is nothing figurative about the language. It is straightforward and clear.



LOL what nonsense. Are children not born from the womb?



Now that is simply dishonest. An occasional metaphor does not make a whole passage metaphorical. In fact a child does 'spew venom' (have you listened to your children or grandchildren sometimes in a bad moment?) and they certainly 'cannot be trained'. All we can do is do what we can. So the Psalmist is being realistic and practical and talking about life as it is.




Sooo? Everyone knows what that means. Shattering teeth and breaking fangs rendered beasts enable to cause damage. Why was it needed? Precisely because those children really were literally sinful from the womb.



Very much like both you and me. We both constantly deceived those who looked after us in order to gain their attention. A baby learns to do this from its earliest moments because it is totally selfish. Do you think Jesus did that?
Hebrew poetry was not like English poetry. It stated FACTS.
Incorrect! Hebrew poetry, and a lot of OT literature is full of figures of speech, especially, metaphors and hyperboles.

YOu are denying the figurative language because taking this literally helps your doctrine of OS. However, you will take other verses as figurative speech. Rightly dividing the Word of God takes honesty!

You go to the extent of calling babies venomous creatures. How sad!

Do parents break the teeth of little children in order to discipline them? In fact, do infants have teeth when they're born?
.
So the Psalmist is being realistic and practical and talking about life as it is.
The psalmist would be wicked (and not realistic) if he talked about children like that. I'm glad he is not, since children are not the subject here.

You fail to see that the chapter is talking about the wicked rulers (judges) and not children. You ignore the context because you want to prove your fake doctrine of OS at any cost.

Very much like both you and me.
Must be like you; not like me. I'm a messed up sinner allright; but since I'm redeemed by grace, I am not boasting about my wickedness. Not so nice meeting you, I should say because you openly boast about your wickedness, which characterized you from infancy.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
Incorrect! Hebrew poetry, and a lot of OT literature is full of figures of speech, especially, metaphors and hyperboles.

YOu are denying the figurative language because taking this literally helps your doctrine of OS. However, you will take other verses as figurative speech. Rightly dividing the Word of God takes honesty!

You go to the extent of calling babies venomous creatures. How sad!

Do parents break the teeth of little children in order to discipline them? In fact, do infants have teeth when they're born?
.The psalmist would be wicked (and not realistic) if he talked about children like that. I'm glad he is not, since children are not the subject here.

You fail to see that the chapter is talking about the wicked rulers (judges) and not children. You ignore the context because you want to prove your fake doctrine of OS at any cost.

Must be like you; not like me. I'm a messed up sinner allright; but since I'm redeemed by grace, I am not boasting about my wickedness. Not so nice meeting you, I should say because you openly boast about your wickedness, which characterized you from infancy.
Don't waffle. Answer my question.

'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' Now that either means that we are blamed for Adam's sin or it means that as a consequence of that sin we became sinners by nature. DON'T DODGE THE QUESTION. WHICH IS YOUR CHOICE?

When you have answered that I will discuss with you further.!
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
These guys have to ignore the bible altogether and then make some claim of a vast catholic deception upon the Protestant world to argue what has been put forth on this thread ...at some point you have to stop trying to reason in the truth of scripture and just call a PIG A PIG ... Some folks on this thread are not biblical Christians ..they don't believe the bible and never did.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
'We are BY NATURE children of wrath' (Eph 2.3).

'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' (Rom 5.19).

'If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 John 1.8) (in contrast with having sinned - verse 10).

'The wicked are estranged from the womb, they go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies' (Psalm 58.3).

'I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me' (Psalm 51.5).

The Scripture are crystal clear on the matter, but naturally depraved sinners won't accept it.
 
B

BradC

Guest
Incorrect! Hebrew poetry, and a lot of OT literature is full of figures of speech, especially, metaphors and hyperboles.

YOu are denying the figurative language because taking this literally helps your doctrine of OS. However, you will take other verses as figurative speech. Rightly dividing the Word of God takes honesty!

You go to the extent of calling babies venomous creatures. How sad!

Do parents break the teeth of little children in order to discipline them? In fact, do infants have teeth when they're born?
.The psalmist would be wicked (and not realistic) if he talked about children like that. I'm glad he is not, since children are not the subject here.

You fail to see that the chapter is talking about the wicked rulers (judges) and not children. You ignore the context because you want to prove your fake doctrine of OS at any cost.

Must be like you; not like me. I'm a messed up sinner allright; but since I'm redeemed by grace, I am not boasting about my wickedness. Not so nice meeting you, I should say because you openly boast about your wickedness, which characterized you from infancy.
Explain to us the poetic value of David saying that he was shapen in iniquity and in sin his mother conceived him. Just take the part...'shapen in iniquity'. What does that poetically mean for our learning? Is that in the womb or outside the womb? Does the word used 'SHAPEN' have a meaning to the verse that it is used in? If so, what is the meaning and how does it apply?
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
15
18
Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: A Fictional Dialogue on Infant Baptism

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Dialogue with a Baptist Pastor on Whether Infant Baptism is Indicated in the New Testament

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

Justin Martyr affirms scripture:

He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression. For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.”

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 88:4 (A.D. 155).

Basil affirms Justin Martyr:
Basil, Eulogies & Sermons, Famine & Drought 8:7 (ante 379).

Pacian affirms Basil
Pacian, Sermons on Baptism, 2,6 (ante A.D. 392).

The doctrine of Original Sin is articulated by Augustine:

St. Augustine,
Conf. 7,7,11: PL 32,739

The teaching of Original Sin predates the canon of the Bible, and is in the Bible. It comes to us from the Apostles who were commissioned to teach. The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not conflict with anything formally taught from the very beginning of Christianity.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Actually Catholicism DOES conflict with what God says in the Scriptures!

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;


How can Catholicism teach Mary was without sin when clearly God has said that NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS?

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

How can Catholicism teach Mary was without sin when God clearly has said ALL HAVE SINNED?

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

How can Catholicism say Mary is our Mediator when God clearly says THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR?

The Catechism, the Catholicism, and what the Popes teach DO CONFLICT with what God says in the Scriptures!

To say and to teach lies proves that you epostle are NOT following Jesus and are NOT doing the Will of the Father.

Matthew 7:15-23
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

You epostle are a false prophet in sheep's clothing trying to deceive people into following the lies of Satan. Keep this up epostle and you will be denied entrance into Heaven with us True Christians!
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
How does a mortal nature cause one to sin? Explain the nature of corruption that will put on incorruption. Corruption is separate and different from mortality. Can you please explain the difference?
Death, corruption, and decay are all the same meaning. While, life, incorruption and immortality are the same meaning.

Man is subject to corruption, decay because of death. Christ redeemed both this world and man from death and corruption by His resurrection whereby He gives life, incorruptibility and immortality to all. I Cor 15.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
Gen. 2:17 - the day you eat of that tree, you shall die. Adam and Eve ate of the tree, and they spiritually died. Some Protestant communities ignore or deny the reality of original sin. But if there is no original sin, then we do not need a Savior either. The horrors of our world testify to the reality of original sin.

Gen. 3:14-19 - God's punishment for eating of the tree was cursing satan, increasing women's pain in childbirth, and condemning man to toil and labor for his whole life.

Job 14:1,4 - man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? All humans are afflicted with original sin, and this includes babies as well. This is why the Catholic Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: A Fictional Dialogue on Infant Baptism

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Dialogue with a Baptist Pastor on Whether Infant Baptism is Indicated in the New Testament

Psalm 51:5 - I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. We have inherited Adam's sin from the moment of our conception. This is why babies need baptism – to wash away the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came into the world through one man, Adam, and death came through this sin. This sin affects all people, men and women, babies and adults. Through the merits of Jesus Christ, we have the sacrament of baptism to wash away the sin that came through Adam.

Rom. 5:14 - death reigned from Adam to Moses, born from Adam's original sin. This is a mystery we do not fully understand, but we must all acknowledge our propensity toward evil and our need of God.

Rom. 5:16 - the judgment following one single trespass brought condemnation for all. This means all have inherited the sin of Adam, and all must be washed clean of this sin in the waters of baptism.

Rom. 5:19 - by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. Original sin is passed on as part of the human condition, and only God in the flesh could atone for our sins by the eternal sacrifice of Himself. Through this sacrifice, God has re-opened the doors to heaven, and through baptism, we are once again made children of God.

1 Cor. 15:21 - for by one man came death. In Adam, all die. In Christ, the new Adam, all now may live.

Eph. 2:1-3 - we were all dead through sin and all lived in the passions of our flesh until Christ came to save us.

Justin Martyr affirms scripture:

He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression. For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.”

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 88:4 (A.D. 155).

Basil affirms Justin Martyr:
Basil, Eulogies & Sermons, Famine & Drought 8:7 (ante 379).

Pacian affirms Basil
Pacian, Sermons on Baptism, 2,6 (ante A.D. 392).

The doctrine of Original Sin is articulated by Augustine:

St. Augustine,
Conf. 7,7,11: PL 32,739

The teaching of Original Sin predates the canon of the Bible, and is in the Bible. It comes to us from the Apostles who were commissioned to teach. The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not conflict with anything formally taught from the very beginning of Christianity.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Fall

On this issue it has gone astray from the teaching of the early Church. It was not until Augustine came along and changed the meaning of the fall. He developed the new theory that became known as Original Sin. The thrust of the theory is that man inherited sin and guilt from Adam. Another view is that God imputes sin to man upon birth. There is nothing in scripture to support these premises. The western see of Rome from Augustine on began to incorporate this view in their theologies. Anselm uses it in his Satisfaction theory. Francis of Assisi ameliorates it somewhat along with others until the Reformation.

All the Reformers adopted Augustines theory of Original Sin and I can only imagine the RCC to offset the loss of so many to the Reformation officially adopted Original Sin at the Council of Trent. It was mostly a cournter-reformaton of the RCC.

At some point the RCC realized their gross error of Original Sin because now they had a problem that Christ of necessity, if born of the Virgin Mary would be a sinner. Thus instead of abandoning the false theory they developed Immaculate Conception supposedly to get around the fact that man was born a sinner, with a sin nature.

Both are additions to scripture and neither was the teaching of the early Church and still is not the teaching of the Church.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
63
Death, corruption, and decay are all the same meaning. While, life, incorruption and immortality are the same meaning.

Man is subject to corruption, decay because of death. Christ redeemed both this world and man from death and corruption by His resurrection whereby He gives life, incorruptibility and immortality to all. I Cor 15.
Don't waffle. Answer my question.

'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' Now that either means that we are blamed for Adam's sin or it means that as a consequence of that sin we became sinners by nature. DON'T DODGE THE QUESTION. WHICH IS YOUR CHOICE?

I have now asked you three times. When you have answered that I will discuss with you further.!
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
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'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' Now that either means that we are blamed for Adam's sin or it means that as a consequence of that sin we became sinners....
We were made sinners because at conception we share in Adam's life after the fall. After Adam fell he became a slave of sin (singular). He became a slave to his love of self. We are born slaves to self.
 

epostle

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2015
660
15
18
On this issue it has gone astray from the teaching of the early Church. It was not until Augustine came along and changed the meaning of the fall. He developed the new theory that became known as Original Sin.
Wrong. He articulated what was always taught and believed, he didn't change anything. Development IS NOT CHANGE. Demonstrate how Augustine was essentially different from Justin Martyr 260 years previous. (or any Church Father for that matter)

"This grace, however, of Christ, without which neither infants nor adults can be saved, is not rendered for any merits, but is given gratis, on account of which it is also called grace. 'Being justified,' says the apostle, 'freely through His blood.' Whence they, who are not liberated through grace, either because they are not yet able to hear, or because they are unwilling to obey; or again because they did not receive, at the time when they were unable on account of youth to hear, that bath of regeneration, which they might have received and through which they might have been saved, are indeed justly condemned; because they are not without sin, either that which they have derived from their birth, or that which they have added from their own misconduct. 'For all have sinned'--whether in Adam or in themselves--"and come short of the glory of God.'"
Augustine, On Nature and Grace, 4 (A.D. 415).

"[T]his concupiscence, I say, which is cleansed only by the sacrament of regeneration, does undoubtedly, by means of natural birth, pass on the bond of sin to a man's posterity, unless they are themselves loosed from it by regeneration."
Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, 1:23 (A.D. 420).

The thrust of the theory is that man inherited sin and guilt from Adam.
Augustine is also confident that Scripture teaches the existence of original sin, and he challenges those who disagree with him to exegete Romans 5:12 properly.

Another view is that God imputes sin to man upon birth.
Some god that is.
There is nothing in scripture to support these premises.
The first is a truth, not a premise.
The western see of Rome from Augustine on began to incorporate this view in their theologies. Anselm uses it in his Satisfaction theory. Francis of Assisi ameliorates it somewhat along with others until the Reformation.
Yea, that's why you ignore Justin Martyr, Basil, Pacian and a list of others, so you can claim Augustine invented the doctrine. Doctrines DEVELOP.

By development of doctrine, we mean that some divinely revealed truth has become more deeply understood and more clearly perceived than it had been before. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whom Christ promised to send to teach us, the Church comes to see more deeply what she had always believed, and the resulting insights find expression in devotion of the faithful that may have been quite uncommon in the Church's previous history...
...Always implied in such progress is that, objectively, the revealed truth remains constant and unchanged. But through the light of the Holy Spirit, the subjective understanding of the truth becomes more clear, its meaning becomes more certain and its grasp by the believing mind becomes increasingly more firm.
History of Eucharistic Adoration

All the Reformers adopted Augustines theory of Original Sin and I can only imagine the RCC to offset the loss of so many to the Reformation officially adopted Original Sin at the Council of Trent. It was mostly a cournter-reformaton of the RCC.
"officially adopted" << another typical Protestant preconceived notion. You're trying to tell me the Church "adopted" what the reformers adopted to win back what was lost? How does that work?

At some point the RCC realized their gross error of Original Sin because now they had a problem that Christ of necessity, if born of the Virgin Mary would be a sinner. Thus instead of abandoning the false theory they developed Immaculate Conception supposedly to get around the fact that man was born a sinner, with a sin nature.
Ridiculous. First, the Church has not gone "around the fact" that we are all born in sin. That is a lie. Second, God created Satan sinless being before he fell, God created Adam and Eve as sinless before they fell, so sinlessness has precedence. But in your system, God is powerless to intervene at Mary's conception that prevented her from having original sin. Since you don't accept the BIBLICAL doctrine of original sin, you have to trash the Immaculate Conception. God did not have to make Mary sinless for his divine plan, a but he chose to because it was fitting for the Mother of the Messiah. God and sin cannot coexist but in your system it does.

The Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception.

Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694

Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 35.

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ." Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
Bernard Leeming, "Protestants and Our Lady", Marian Library Studies, January 1967, p.9.

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." John Calvin, Calvini Opera [Braunshweig-Berlin, 1863-1900], Volume 45, 348.

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."
John Calvin, A Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke (St. Andrew's Press, Edinburgh, 1972), p.32.

Ulrich Zwingli: "It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin." Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 424.

Ulrich Zwingli : "I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."
E. Stakemeier, De Mariologia et Oecumenismo, K. Balic, ed., (Rome, 1962), 456.

Ulrich Zwingli "Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin." Ibid.

Ulrich Zwingli "It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother." Ibid.

Ulrich Zwingli "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
Ulrich Zwingli, Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Volume 1, 427-428.

We might wonder why the Marian affirmations of the Reformers did not survive in the teaching of their heirs - particularly the Fundamentalists. This break with the past did not come through any new discovery or revelation.
The Reformers themselves took a benign, even positive view of Marian doctrine - although they did reject Marian mediation because of their rejection of all human mediation.

You need to think twice before blaming Catholics for everything you personally disagree with. But I suppose you can blame the reformers as well, and their offshoots, and offshoots of offshoots.


 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
1,115
24
38
Don't waffle. Answer my question.

'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' Now that either means that we are blamed for Adam's sin or it means that as a consequence of that sin we became sinners by nature. DON'T DODGE THE QUESTION. WHICH IS YOUR CHOICE?

When you have answered that I will discuss with you further.!

You are insisting on my reply because this is one of your strongest verses that seem to support OS. I'm not holding back; I have elaborated on this verse in one of my previous posts.
You pose your question is the same way a crafty comb salesman tries to trap a bald man by saying, "How do you feel this comb will help you? Will it help you to scratch your head or will it help you to comb your mustache? Which is your choice?"


Romans 5:19
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Note that the word many is used twice in the same sentence.
a) many were made sinners
b) many were made righteous

If you say that in part a) "many" meant "the whole human race," then
the same applies to part b).
If I would follow your interpretation, part be would read: "the whole human race" was made righteous (not scriptural at all).

Again, it's a case of rightly dividing the Word of God.


we are blamed for Adam's sin
We will be blamed only for our sins. Would it be fair if you were sentenced to hanging for a murder committed by your neighbor? Sin is never imputed or inherited [Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12]
as a consequence of that sin we became sinners by nature.
As a consequence of that sin, death came to us. We are sinners because we deliberately chose to disobey God [James 4:17]; not because someone else disobeyed.
 

Cassian

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Oct 12, 2013
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Don't waffle. Answer my question.

'Through one man's disobedience many (the whole human race) were made sinners.' Now that either means that we are blamed for Adam's sin or it means that as a consequence of that sin we became sinners by nature. DON'T DODGE THE QUESTION. WHICH IS YOUR CHOICE?

I have now asked you three times. When you have answered that I will discuss with you further.!
I replied from your response to Roberth. This is the first time you asked me, However, don't you read responses to your posts?

The answer is neither one. We inherited the condemnation of death to Adam. We became sinners because we sin through our mortal nature.
 

Cassian

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Oct 12, 2013
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epostle,

Wrong. He articulated what was always taught and believed, he didn't change anything. Development IS NOT CHANGE. Demonstrate how Augustine was essentially different from Justin Martyr 260 years previous. (or any Church Father for that matter)
You will never be able to prove that. Even the quote you used of Justin Martyr states it as the Church has understood it from the beginning as it being death that has caused us to become sinners.
Development IS change. The RCC uses this prinicple of "development" to warrant all the changes they have instituted since they split from the Church in the 11th century. It is the same thing as sola scriptura which is the term Protestants gave to the idea.

Your quotes of Augustine confirm that he switched to the sin of Adam instead of what was always understood as death, the condemnation of death to Adam. Augustine also includes that rediculous reasoning regarding the ideas that sex transmitts the sin nature or sin, thus Christ not being of a male seed could not have received the sin nature.

Augustine is also confident that Scripture teaches the existence of original sin, and he challenges those who disagree with him to exegete Romans 5:12 properly.
this is precisely where Augustine went astray. He did not know Greek. Rom 5:12 is very clear that it is the condemenation of death that is passed on to all men, not sin. The antecendent of the because clause is the phrase "the condemnation of death. We also know it is death because vs 18 gives the correction or opposite which was life. I Cor 15:12-22 also condenms the Original Sin theory as it is the equation of death and life. Sin or guilt or a sin nature is never stated or even alluded anywhere in scripture.

"officially adopted" << another typical Protestant preconceived notion. You're trying to tell me the Church "adopted" what the reformers adopted to win back what was lost? How does that work?
You tell me. Read your Council of Trent Canons. They adopted the theory of Original Sin. Why was it necessary to adopt something if it was always what scripture meant?

Ridiculous. First, the Church has not gone "around the fact" that we are all born in sin. That is a lie. Second, God created Satan sinless being before he fell, God created Adam and Eve as sinless before they fell, so sinlessness has precedence. But in your system, God is powerless to intervene at Mary's conception that prevented her from having original sin. Since you don't accept the BIBLICAL doctrine of original sin, you have to trash the Immaculate Conception. God did not have to make Mary sinless for his divine plan, a but he chose to because it was fitting for the Mother of the Messiah. God and sin cannot coexist but in your system it does.
The RCC does this. Being born IN sin does not mean that we either are sin, or have sin.

The problem with your theology is that the RCC needed to correct an error. If properly understood, Christ was born of Mary, who was a mortal being. Being mortal is not sin or having sin. Every human being is born sinless, innocent. Thus the early Church does not need to correct it so that the doctrine of the Incarnation, who Jesus really is, namely, in His Humanity a human being of the same essence as we are.

We accept the Biblical doctrine of the fall, which we now call, Ancestral Sin because the term was hijacked by Augustine when he changed the meaning from the Original.
We don't need to trash the IC because there is no necessity to have such a dogma. It is extra-biblical and completely new only some 200 or so years ago. Hardly the revelation that was given to the Apostles.

The Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception.
That is a switch. You are claiming that the RCC is actually adopting an idea from Luther that he developed almost 100 years before the RCC. Nice twist, to say the least.
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther's Works, English translation edited by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St.Louis], Volume 4, 694
Nice RCC rationalization, but if properly understood, all of this IC nonsense is not necessary since all men are born without sin.

Although Calvin was not as profuse in his praise of Mary as Martin Luther he did not deny her perpetual virginity. The term he used most commonly in referring to Mary was "Holy Virgin".
We don't have a problem with the perpetual Virginity of Mary, but that is totally unrelated to IC.
You need to think twice before blaming Catholics for everything you personally disagree with. But I suppose you can blame the reformers as well, and their offshoots, and offshoots of offshoots.
RCC doesn't have everything incorrect, but over the years since they split form the Church, they have been on a very long slope to oblivion doctrinally and continue to do so. Protestants are a whole different milieu.
 

onlinebuddy

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Sep 1, 2012
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Explain to us the poetic value of David saying that he was shapen in iniquity and in sin his mother conceived him. Just take the part...'shapen in iniquity'. What does that poetically mean for our learning? Is that in the womb or outside the womb? Does the word used 'SHAPEN' have a meaning to the verse that it is used in? If so, what is the meaning and how does it apply?
In order to understand this verse one needs to refer to other verses and see if they are in agreement with this one. Scripture teaches God would not infect you with someone else's sin. [Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 14:12].

This psalm of David is high in emotions due to his penitent feelings. Therefore it is full of exaggeration and metaphors.
Is sin a literal stain that can be washed away? Can iniquity be washed? Can one be faithful in the womb? Did God literally crush David's bones?

Answer this one: Did Job literally care for the widow and the orphaned from his womb? Job 31:18

When David says that he was shapen in iniquity and his mother conceived him in sin, he was not referring to his sin, but the sin of his ancestors. However, he is surely not saying that he was infected by it or made a sinner for it. He never blamed his sins on his uncontrollable sinful nature. This is the part that OS believers misinterpret.

Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that Adam's sin was transferred to us and therefore we are automatically inclined towards sin. All verses that are used to that effect are either isolated ones or misinterpreted ones.
These are the thoughts of those who want an excuse to launch false doctrines. Yes, the Bible teaches that we suffer death due to Adam's sin.


Genesis 3 mentions the curse of God on mankind. Not once did God tell Adam or Eve that their offspring would inherit a sinful nature that inclines towards evil as a result of their own sin. This was an ideal time for God to launch the doctrine of OS, but he did not, since OS is not from God.

If God was the one who allowed the sinful inclination in all mankind, why did he regret (repent, grieve) that he had created man? Why did he not say, "Oh, it is me that allowed this sinful nature in man. It is not his fault, but Adam's fault." God did not say that because he has not put (or allow) a sinful inclination in anyone, and he expected total obedience, and not perversion.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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In Psalms 51, David comes before the Lord with a contrite and repentant heart. The OT saints were highly dramatic and expressive in their repentance and lamentations; and so was Paul. They therefore went to great extents to express responsibility for their own sins. This is evident if we study the characters of Job, David, Jeremiah, etc., and even Paul.

However, it is noteworthy that they never blamed any inbuilt sinful inclination for their sins. Some of us on this thread are having a difficulty in entirely taking personal responsibility for their sins, as they always blame their sins partly on their sinful nature.

David never blamed any one else but himself for his sins of adultery and murder. He never blamed any sinful inclinations that he had inherited(as OS believers are implying), because the doctrine of OS is not biblical. No wonder, God called him a man after His own heart!