The Immaculate Conception Error

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Actually it does. nature begets nature. But that is not the point. The point is CONTEXT. In Psalm 51 David's whole point was to connect his mother's sinfulness with his own sins. His point was that he had committed gross sins because he was born of a sinful mother.

So if a baby die it will not go to heaven if the mother is a unrepented sinner?

Actually no one knows what happens to a baby when it dies. Scripture does not tell us. LOL we do like to second guess God. Any suggestions are simply hypotheses without evidence mainly resulting from our sentimental ideas.

But certainly what happens to it is not subject to the mother's behaviour. It may however be subject to the mother's nature.

Tell me, if all babies who die go to Heaven does that not make a child serial killer a hero? Should we not smother all babies at birth? Indeed should God not have ensured that all who would sin and be condemned, actually die at child birth so that they would not sin and becondemned? Then ALL could be saved.

 

[valiant]

Jesus is God. He is self-existing. There was never a time that He didn't exist and there will never be a time when He ceases to exist.

True

But at the incarnation Christ as God handed the independent use of His Deity over to His Father and was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

That is your hypothesis. It is not Scripture. Jesus remained God. He simply did no allow His Godhead to interfere with His activity on earth.

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity.

You mean He chose to. He was not under any compunction. But He only gave up the independent use of His divinity with regard to earthly activity. We cannot pronounce on anything else. The Son did not cease to be part of the Triune God.

Even His God-consciousness had to be given up.

Scripture?

Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation.

Scripture?

He was not God-conscious as a baby.

Babies are not usually conscious of very much. Their ability to think has not developed. However we do not know whether He was God-conscious as a baby. It is pure hypothesis

 

[onlinebuddy]

Have you forgotten that original sin is first laid out in the OT, starting in Gen 2, that leads into the first murder with Cain and the story just rolls on to the point that God repented that he had made man. Sin and iniquity was so inherit in man that his imaginations were evil continually. This is why man does what is right in his own eyes because they have all turned away, there is none righteous, no not one, all have gone astray from birth. All these things point to a depraved state in the heart of man which is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things.

HOW DID ALL THOSE THINGS JESUS SAID PROCEED FROM THE HEART GET THERR IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE CONTEXT DOES NOT DISQUALIFY THE ISSUE OF WHAT IS IN THE HEART. FOR OUT OF THE HEART PROCEED THE ISSUES OF LIFE.

Have you forgotten that original sin is first laid out in the OT, starting in Gen 2, that leads into the first murder with Cain

Wasn't it Cain's fault that he killed his brother? Or was it the fault of his evil inherited nature?

there is none righteous, no not one, all have gone astray from birth.

Firstly, you have added, "all have gone astray from birth". It's not in the Romans chapter 3. Secondly, where is original sin mentioned here. Where in the entire chapter is it mentioned that we were born in sin. Where does it say in this chapter, or elsewhere that man is born with a wicked heart?

Yes, Paul is saying that there is none righteous, but where is he saying that man is born with a sinful unrighteous heart? He's not saying it! You are adding that, because your church teaches original sin, and you connect every unrighteous act to the "sinful nature inherited in the womb."

There is a difference between having a wicked heart and being born with a wicked heart.
There is a difference between being sinful and being born sinful.
When God saw that every inclination of man was evil[gen 6:5], that does not mean that man was born with an evil inclination. Genesis 6 never says that man was born wicked. It says that every inclination of his heart was wicked. That's it. You are conditioned to think: "man is born wicked"

Whenever scripture says someone is wicked, you are conditioned by your doctrine to think: he is born wicked.
Whenever scripture says that the heart is deceitful above all things, you are conditioned by your doctrine to think: he is born with a heart that is deceitful above all things.

HOW DID ALL THOSE THINGS JESUS SAID PROCEED FROM THE HEART GET THERR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

How did deceit, disobedience and distrust get into the hearts of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? Were they born with original sin too?

 

[onlinebuddy]

LOL I do love these people who tell us what is 'fair' for God to do. Do you judge God by your standards?. If you do you are a fool. Anything God chooses to do is fair.

LOL Jesus was not coming in order to enter into a competition. What does it matter if it was 'fair'. You have such peculiar ideas. It actually wasn't 'fair' that Jesus should die for our sins. Indeed it was grossly unfair (humanly speaking).




NONSENSE.



But He had the Spirit in all His fullness (John 3.34). we only enjoy a portion of the Spirit.

However He also had a divine nature. That is something we do not have, even if we can 'partake' of it.

Furthermore He was born without a sinful nature.



But He did not have the sinful cravings of our mortal sinful flesh. And as I have shown you we do not have the Spirit in the same way as He did. He is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit.




NOWHERE does it say that Jesus struggled to live a life of purity. You clearly don't know the Scriptures.

Anything God chooses to do is fair.

You just made my point. God is fair. That's exactly what I'm stating. In his fairness, he made Jesus to be born exactly as humans are.

Furthermore He was born without a sinful nature.

Jesus was born exactly as we are.
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way [Heb 2:17]
If Jesus was made exactly like us, and we are born with a "sinful nature"(according to you), then logically speaking, Jesus should have a sinful nature too. If he did not have a sinful nature, he was not made like us in every way.
Conversely, if Jesus did not have a sinful nature, we do not have a "sinful nature."

NOWHERE does it say that Jesus struggled to live a life of purity. You clearly don't know the Scriptures.

I have not phrased that sentence correctly.
Here's what I said: Yet we struggle to live a life of purity as Jesus did
Here's what I meant: Yet we struggle to live a life of purity; a life of purity similar to that of Jesus.

 

[KenAllan]

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus never sinned!

Jesus was never born with the sin nature because it was the Holy Spirit who was the Father of the body used by the Son of God.

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

There is a sin nature passed on by the father of the child.

We must understand and realize that Catholicism is the greatest threat to the Word of God today. The Catholic Church was created by Satan to oppose the True Christians and to oppose the Holy Spirit by blinding the eyes of people to the Truth from God.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus never sinned!

Jesus was never born with the sin nature because it was the Holy Spirit who was the Father of the body used by the Son of God.

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

There is a sin nature passed on by the father of the child.

We must understand and realize that Catholicism is the greatest threat to the Word of God today. The Catholic Church was created by Satan to oppose the True Christians and to oppose the Holy Spirit by blinding the eyes of people to the Truth from God.

I agree that Jesus was never born with a sin nature.
I disagree that man was born with a sin nature, that was passed on by the father.
I am not defying anyone, but just asking for scriptural evidence.

And yes, I agree that the Catholic church (that benefits the most from the doctrine of Original Sin) is a threat to the Word of God. Remove the concept of original sin, and the catholic doctrine collapses.

 

[onlinebuddy]

But He did not have the sinful cravings of our mortal sinful flesh. And as I have shown you we do not have the Spirit in the same way as He did. He is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit.

OK, let me agree that he did not have the "sinful" cravings. I take my words back. However, he was tempted like us in every way, and yet was without sin.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Actually we are saved by works, GOD's works. Our salvation is by God's working (Phil 2.13). And that working is a consequence of His grace, His unmerited love, favour and compassion.

I'm not denying that. I request you not to play with words.

 

[onlinebuddy]

We can only blame ourselves. Nevertheless they are due to our sinful nature.

Both of your sentences contradict each other.
We either blame ourselves entirely, or blame the "sinful nature."

We either say, "it was totally my fault,"
or
"it was due to my sinful nature that I received from birth due to Adam's sin (and for no fault of mine)"

We can't say, "My sins are partly because of me and partly because of my sinful nature."
Also, we can't say, " My sinful nature prompted me to sin, and I carried it to completion."

 

[onlinebuddy]

No He wants us to have faith.



Only some of them LOL

I would once again request you not to play with words just for argument sake.

Hebrews 11:12
New International Version
This is what the ancients were commended for.

English Standard Version
For by it the people of old received their commendation.

Berean Study Bible
This is what the ancients were commended for.

Berean Literal Bible
For in this the ancients were commended.

New American Standard Bible
For by it the men of old gained approval.

King James Bible
For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For our ancestors won God's approval by it.

International Standard Version
By faith our ancestors won approval.

NET Bible
For by it the people of old received God's commendation.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And by this there was a testimony concerning the ancients.

 

[valiant]

Wasn't it Cain's fault that he killed his brother? Or was it the fault of his evil inherited nature?

both. If he had not inherited a sinful nature he would not have grown jealous, and then murderous.

Firstly, you have added, "all have gone astray from birth". It's not in the Romans chapter 3.

But it is in Psalm 58.3. That is equally Scripture.

Secondly, where is original sin mentioned here.

All would not sin unless all were born sinful. Furthermore Romans 5.11-2 makes it clear. 'As through one man's disobedience many were made sinners.' This either indicates that Adam's sin applies to us all (original guilt) or it indicates that Adam passed sin on to us (original sin). Take your choice. Why does sin reign? Because all men are naturally sinful

Where in the entire chapter is it mentioned that we were born in sin. Where does it say in this chapter, or elsewhere that man is born with a wicked heart?

Psalm 58.3.

Yes, Paul is saying that there is none righteous, but where is he saying that man is born with a sinful unrighteous heart? He's not saying it!

But the only reason that he COULD say that none was righteous was IF he knew that all men were born with naturally irreversible sinful tendencies. Otherwise he would not have known it. He had not checked out the world. He could say it BECAUSE he knew all men had sinful natures at birth.

You are adding that, because your church teaches original sin,

No we add it because Scripture teaches original sin.

And you connect every unrighteous act to the "sinful nature inherited in the womb

."

As Scripture does.

There is a difference between having a wicked heart and being born with a wicked heart.

but Psalm 58.3 says we are born with a wicked heart.

There is a difference between being sinful and being born sinful

.

True but all men would not be sinful unless they were born sinful. Surely if some were born without a sinful nature they could reach childhood without having sinned. They all sin because of their nature.

When God saw that every inclination of man was evil[gen 6:5], that does not mean that man was born with an evil inclination.

If every man woman and child of any age had every inclination to do evil then it clearly demonstrates that they were born sinful.

Genesis 6 never says that man was born wicked. It says that every inclination of his heart was wicked.

As I have shown above that could only be because they were born that way,

That's it. You are conditioned to think: "man is born wicked"

No Scripture makes plain that we are born wicked.

Whenever scripture says someone is wicked, you are conditioned by your doctrine to think: he is born wicked.

LOL repeating it won't make it true It is Scripture which conditions us to think that way.

Whenever scripture says that the heart is deceitful above all things, you are conditioned by your doctrine to think: he is born with a heart that is deceitful above all things.

If it is true of all men women and children it must be because they were born that way otherwise some growing up in a righteous family would not be sinful.

How did deceit, disobedience and distrust get into the hearts of

Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? Were they born with original sin too?

we are not talking about Adam and Eve, they were the exception before sin entered into the world.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Actually no one knows what happens to a baby when it dies. Scripture does not tell us. LOL we do like to second guess God. Any suggestions are simply hypotheses without evidence mainly resulting from our sentimental ideas.

But certainly what happens to it is not subject to the mother's behaviour. It may however be subject to the mother's nature.

Tell me, if all babies who die go to Heaven does that not make a child serial killer a hero? Should we not smother all babies at birth? Indeed should God not have ensured that all who would sin and be condemned, actually die at child birth so that they would not sin and becondemned? Then ALL could be saved.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” [Mt 19:14]
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.[Mk 10:14]
But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.[Lk 18:16]

 

[valiant]

VALIANT - Anything God chooses to do is fair. {/quote]

You just made my point. God is fair.

you misunderstood my point. Whatever God does IS FAIR BECAUSE GOD DOES IT even if it seems unfair to us. He CANNOT be unfair because He is the supreme arbiter of what fairness is. Your human judgment is simply unreliable. You cannot see what God sees.

That's exactly what I'm stating. In his fairness, he made Jesus to be born exactly as humans are.

No it is not. He made Jesus exactly as He determined He should be made. He was not bothered about what we consider as 'fair'. It was not a competition. Jesus came in order to be the perfect sacrifice, not in order to compete with us. There was nothing unfair in Jesus being sinless at birth and we being sinful. It was not a competition. Jesus had to be UNIQUE to do what He did.

Jesus was born exactly as we are.

Then we have no hope. It was precisely because He was not born as we are that He was able to do what He did.

For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way [Heb 2:17];

That is not what Heb 2.17 says. It says He was made like His brothers so He could act on their behalf. That means that He came as a human being. It does not say He was 'fully human in every way'.

Jesus was not 'fully human in every way'. He did not have a human spirit. His spirit was divine. He was GOD made man. He was not just a human being.

If Jesus was made exactly like us, and we are born with a "sinful nature"(according to you), then logically speaking, Jesus should have a sinful nature too. If he did not have a sinful nature, he was not made like us in every way.

As I have demonstrated He was NOT like us in every way. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. We were not. He was God made man, We are not. He was very different from us, but sufficiently like us for God's plan to be effective through Him. So your supposedly logical argument collapses.

Conversely, if Jesus did not have a sinful nature, we do not have a "sinful nature."

Total and utter nonsense. Jesus was conceived of the morally perfect Holy Spirit. We are conceived of utterly sinful men.

I have not phrased that sentence correctly. Here's what I said:

Yet we struggle to live a life of purity as Jesus did. Here's what I meant: Yet we struggle to live a life of purity; a life of purity similar to that of Jesus.

Thereby you destroy your whole case. If Jesus was so like us why did He not have to struggle?

 

[valiant]

OK, let me agree that he did not have the "sinful" cravings. I take my words back. However, he was tempted like us in every way, and yet was without sin.

LOL if He did not have our sinful cravings then He was definitely not 'fully human in every way'. He was certainly tempted in the same way as we are, but because He did not have our sinful cravings He, and ONLY He, always overcame temptation.

 

[onlinebuddy]

both. If he had not inherited a sinful nature he would not have grown jealous, and then murderous.
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This is the exact danger of Original Sin. It makes you blame something other than yourself.
Eccl 7:29 This only have I found:
God created mankind upright

 

[valiant]

Both of your sentences contradict each other.
We either blame ourselves entirely, or blame the "sinful nature."

We either say, "it was totally my fault,"
or
"it was due to my sinful nature that I received from birth due to Adam's sin (and for no fault of mine)"

We can't say, "My sins are partly because of me and partly because of my sinful nature."
Also, we can't say, " My sinful nature prompted me to sin, and I carried it to completion."

what nonsense you talk. my sinful nature is WHAT I AM. I am responsible for what I do. Thus I cannot blame my sinful nature' without blaming ME. It is I in my sinful nature who is guilty of sin. I cannot blame anything or anyone else.

 

[valiant]

This is the exact danger of Original Sin. It makes you blame something other than yourself.
Eccl 7:29 This only have I found: God created mankind upright

God did create man upright. Adam was upright. LOL you have such a false idea about 'original sin'. I am what I am because of 'original sin'. Thus any blame falls on ME.. I do what I choose to do

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Actually no one knows what happens to a baby when it dies. Scripture does not tell us. LOL we do like to second guess God. Any suggestions are simply hypotheses without evidence mainly resulting from our sentimental ideas.

But certainly what happens to it is not subject to the mother's behaviour. It may however be subject to the mother's nature.

Tell me, if all babies who die go to Heaven does that not make a child serial killer a hero? Should we not smother all babies at birth? Indeed should God not have ensured that all who would sin and be condemned, actually die at child birth so that they would not sin and becondemned? Then ALL could be saved.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” [Mt 19:14]
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.[Mk 10:14]
But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.[Lk 18:16]

so what does that show? That we all need to come to Christ in childlike faith LIKE THESE YOUNGSTERS WHO CAME TO JESUS forgetting our own cleverness. It is only thus that I could enter under the Kingly Rule of God.

It says nothing about the destiny of either children or adults.

 

[onlinebuddy]

both. If he had not inherited a sinful nature he would not have grown jealous, and then murderous.
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But it is in Psalm 58.3. That is equally Scripture.

Psalm 58:3-6: The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They have venom like the venom of a serpent; like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, So that it does not hear the voice of charmers, or a skillful caster of spells. O God, shatter their teeth in their mouth; break out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord.
Firstly, you need to learn how to rightly divide the word of God. [2 Tim 2:15]. You need to know the difference between literal and figurative language. Psalm 58 is in the form of Hebrew poetry, where the language is figurative.

If we take it literally then v3 contradicts itself, because "from the womb" and "from birth" mean two different things.

If you take these verses literally, a child is like a cobra spewing venom and is not able to be trained. Also, the narrator is telling God to shatter their teeth and break their fangs.

Does this describe you at birth? Does that sound like you?

 

[onlinebuddy]

All would not sin unless all were born sinful. Furthermore Romans 5.11-2 makes it clear. 'As through one man's disobedience many were made sinners.' This either indicates that Adam's sin applies to us all (original guilt) or it indicates that Adam passed sin on to us (original sin). Take your choice. Why does sin reign? Because all men are naturally sinful

All would not sin unless all were born sinful.

Yes, blame your sins on your sinful nature!
Romans 5:1112 says "many" were made sinners. Not "All."

This either indicates that Adam's sin applies to us all (original guilt)

Read again, it says "many" not "all"

Take your choice. Why does sin reign? Because all men are naturally sinful

Yes, blame your sins on your sinful nature!

This either indicates that Adam's sin applies to us all (original guilt) or it indicates that Adam passed sin on to us (original sin).

Read the verse again and tell me where it says Adam's sin applies to us or that Adam passed sin on to us.

2 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—[Heb 5:12]
sin entered the "world" ..sin did not enter man.
What came to all people? "death" (physical) not sin.
Why did death come to all people? (you ignore this).."because all sinned"
===================

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man(i.e. Adam), and death (came to Adam) through (Adam's) sin,and in this way (in the way death came to Adam due to his sin) death (also) came to all people(i.e. us), because all(we, just like Adam) sinned[Romans 5:12]

Note that a comparison is being made here between Adam and the rest of mankind (us). I have divided the verse into 2 parts:

PART 1 (about Adam)
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man(i.e. Adam), and death (came to Adam) through (Adam's) sin,

PART 2 (about mankind)
and in this way (in the way that death came to Adam due to his sin) death (also) came to all people(i.e. us), because all(we, just like Adam) sinned

What this verse is talking about? The same thing Romans 6:23 is talking about: For the wages of sin is death,

No imputed sin!!! No nature indwelt with iniquity!!! No Original sin!!!