The Importance of Rightly Dividing the word of Truth

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L

LT

Guest
#81
we read and imagine a temple of stone and wood descending down from Heaven when it is told us that our bodies are the temple of god. the lord is the lord of host so he dwells within the host,hence lord of host. now the head of the body is Christ,and the many members the church.

so what then is meant by the temple of god descending down from heaven into the earth among men? is it not the true temple,Christ in his second coming along with those resurrected in the first Resurrection and those remaining on the earth caught up?,,,,how do we perceive it a carnal temple constructed of the elements or the body of Christ we are told is the true temple?,,,,,you see some are in the temple and others who are outside the temple,,,,,,,,
you have made a nice comparison, but a comparison does not mean replacement. Please don't just skim through, pulling things out whenever they seem to fit. You need to do some word studies. Look at context!

It says a New Jerusalem, not just a new temple. Do you see how your comparison no longer fits? Then there is the New Heaven and New Earth. If it was all allegory, they would have stopped with "New Earth", and if it was all just spiritual, they would have stopped at New Jerusalem. Do you see that by saying there will also be a New Heaven, this infers the New Earth is a physical rebirth of the planet.
 
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#82
we read and imagine a temple of stone and wood descending down from Heaven when it is told us that our bodies are the temple of god. the lord is the lord of host so he dwells within the host,hence lord of host. now the head of the body is Christ,and the many members the church.

so what then is meant by the temple of god descending down from heaven into the earth among men? is it not the true temple,Christ in his second coming along with those resurrected in the first Resurrection and those remaining on the earth caught up?,,,,how do we perceive it a carnal temple constructed of the elements or the body of Christ we are told is the true temple?,,,,,you see some are in the temple and others who are outside the temple,,,,,,,,
Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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#83
you have made a nice comparison, but a comparison does not mean replacement. Please don't just skim through, pulling things out whenever they seem to fit. You need to do some word studies. Look at context!

It says a New Jerusalem, not just a new temple. Do you see how your comparison no longer fits? Then there is the New Heaven and New Earth. If it was all allegory, they would have stopped with "New Earth", and if it was all just spiritual, they would have stopped at New Jerusalem. Do you see that by saying there will also be a New Heaven, this infers the New Earth is a physical rebirth of the planet.
compare it to Galatians 4;21-27,,,it is an allegory of the two covenants,,,as he states in 4;27 "the Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all",,,,then see hebrews 13;10-14,,,in verse 14 he states "for here we have no continuing city,but seek one to come",,,,so the free and the bond,,are both ever present.

the statement was made to me Christianity "did not replace Israel",,,which city is Paul speaking of ? you see Melchizedek the king of Salem and we know this to be "yeru-salem" and this city continued from then even to today. so you see there is not the replacement of one by the other. as we know some seek to touch a kingdom made of stone and wood even today,they make films of it and post them on youtube. that is they gather the the gold and stones and nails to fasten together a kingdom and temple when they find opportunity to do so.

now in Galatians 4;30-31 we(christians) are not of the bond,for the son of the bondwoman(carnal),shall not be heir,with the free(Christ),,,so also Christ spoke of (john 18;36),when he was ask if he was the king of the Jews, Israel then present and the temple standing Christ did not tell pilate he was the king of. but in stead he told him,,,"my kingdom is not of this world,and but now is my kingdom not from hence",,,,so there remains the two,one that Christ is "not the king of" and another that he "is the king of".

and so one group of people see one kingdom,temple and Jerusalem and work to bring about the building of it and the restoration of the honor paid to it. while on the other hand there is another kingdom and city and temple and it need not any to build in it or establish the honor of it, but it is true that the children of the free woman are the heirs of it.,,,,,
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#84
If you sin such as have lust in your heart toward a woman, or commit some other sin, well then what you need to do is repent of that sin, confess it to God the Father and forsake it.


Then just move forward in your walk with Christ the Lord. And continue to press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Phil. 3:14).



6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:6-10 (King James Bible)
Okay I have confessed that I have sinned, I also confess I could sin again, and if I do I talk to God the Father about it, and ask how to walk in truth as his son did? You see I already know by Christ's work at the cross I am 100% forgiven, whether I sin again or not. since that is truth, neither do I ever want to take advantage of being forgiven. So ever since I got past this fact that I am forgiven by the death of Christ at the cross, God the Father began teaching me how to trust and listen, hearing Father's love, that this world or flesh can't ever fathom
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

All I am saying is I tried real hard to obey and never could, and I found out through trying really hard there was no way I could do it, crying to God and hearing the enemy saying give up ,and do not believe just act like you do as if you got it all together in your flesh. I rebuked this and continued to try, then God showed me give up and by Faith trust him to do in me what I now see clearly that I can never accomplish in self.

And oh boy what a journey since, all God and none of me anymore, I am nothing more than a vessel to be used by Father, as Father sees fit, just like as when I use a water glass as my vessel, whenever I see fit.
For as Paul said every time I try to do good, evil is right there at my door, and sometimes taking over and I end up doing what I do not want to do, sound familiar?

And Paul ends Chapter 7 of Romans with; who will save me, and the answer is Christ and Christ alone unto Father and no works of my own will ever get me there.
Finalization of the cross includes the resurrected Christ where new Life is at: a gift from God the Father of Christ, any earning after that makes Father's gift Void
No ands ifs or buts brother, Love you and all deeply
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#85
Well Homwardbound, they are definitely believers. But you have to remember that there is a clear distinction between the Church and Israel. Especially in the time of Jacob's trouble. After all, we are talking about the Tribulation Period, the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) here. The Church is gone. The Church has already been raptured (1 Thess. 4:16-18). And in the time of Jacob's trouble, God will be dealing directly with the Nation of Israel again.
Do you not know that in the original text Church is not there. that the word Church is a mistranslation from the original Greek text, the word was and is Ecclesia that has been mistranslated to the Word Church, and these two different words have not the same meaning. And so all translations are not inerrant as you claim only one is. Regardless of these facts, a believer is considered a Believer in God through Christ period, That word Christian was never used except in Acts to make fun of Paul. Christ-like , used today as we are Christians working at salvation and claiming salvation as if you, or anyone walks as he walks outside of Faith trusting in God doing the lead not us, is the only way, no credit to me or any man or person ever. hoping you see this Brother. is all God and no one else Christ and Father are one in Spirit and we are by Faith to be the same, for only God can be worshipped in Spirit and truth, not flesh ever.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#86
Of course Christ has made us perfect by His once and for all sacrifice.


9 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:1-28 (King James Bible)
So then I know by Christ we are called not to sin again and if we do we have our advocate Jesus Christ the righteous. Is this an excuse to be able to get angry at our wives for not obeying, submitting to us in our time of need according to flesh. Are we to control our better halves, and if we can't do something other?
Or are we to endure ask
God how to get past the reprobate mindset of today? Can if we try in and of ourselves asking for God's help can we do it?
And if we do it overcome, how do we feel about it?
you see that the result in overcoming any sin as in how I react, tells me of whether it is of the flesh or of God, if I get proud and or boastful 2 cor 12:7 on as Paul reveals this to glory in our inability, then we will turn to God through Christ and God will do in us what we can't do in self, result all God and none of me outside of believing God
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#87
so if i make a statement which may be incorrect and it is pointed out to me and i am given the opportunity as a human being to accept that i may make mistakes and do not acknowledge it then i have made the decision to continue to walk in darkness?
No I think not. We all that do believe are works in progress God being ones teacher, the sooner we seek for that over man's doctrine the sooner we learn how to walk as Christ walked, being taught truth over error in the Spirit of God, because God by a free gift to us gives us new life in the Spirit via the resurrected Christ, And I know of no gift that can be earned. Any gift to me is appreciated and trust from me is given back to the life giver in thanksgiving and praises as King David said in Psalms 100:4
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#88


10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. - Acts 10:1-48 (King James Bible)



From reading this passage of Scripture, I would say yes to your question Homwardbound. I believe that they would have still been saved even if they would have not had the chance to get water baptized. And I believe this is the case because Cornelius and his house (family) already had received the Holy Ghost. Therefore they were saved already.


Keep in mind also Homwardbound, that Acts is a Transitional book. In Acts 2:38, they had to get baptized in water first to receive the Holy Ghost.



29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. - Acts 2:29-38 (King James Bible)



But as we have already seen in Acts 10, there is a slight change, in that the Holy Ghost came upon them as they heard the word (Acts 10:44-46).


Therefore, I believe that in Acts 10, that their conversion came before they were baptized in water.
Thanks and what Peter said in Acts per what is translated is get water Baptized and RECIEVE the gift of the Holy Ghost, so again apparently Peter knew they already had the Holy Ghost and added well, get water Baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. so now Peter either said this or he did not and this is or was mistranslated from the inerrant translation in Greek. The original Greek being the only inerrant translation of new testament
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#89
I am pretty sure that these passages show that God didn't send they Holy Spirit with a specific system, but instead, sent it whenever He deemed it proper.
It is foolish to say that God changed His way of doing things from one way to another. He is not tame or predictable, because His Ways are still a mystery to us. He is GOD.
He sends when He wants to send, and withholds when He wants to withhold.
When He makes a promise, He keeps it. When He has a plan, it works out as He planned. But, if He didn't make a specific promise, and if He doesn't make His plan clear for a situation, then to us, what He does may seem unpredictable. But He is still God, and His ways are still good.

God did promise that faith in Christ is salvation to those who believe. Therefore, salvation occurs before the Spirit. The Spirit is a secondary promise, given to those who are already saved.
Without being born again one can't see the kingdom of God. And are we not born again by God's Spirit, sealed with this promise of the very first day we believe God
Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#90
Until you all see the error of your teaching on the cross work of Jesus ,you will never understand how God and Jesus saves us. The only thing that Jesus did on the cross was to provide salvation for us sinners; He did not save us on the cross, nor MAKE us holy or forgive us on the cross, The appilcation of salvation was not done on the cross. Unless you acknowledge this fact, no way can you learn the Bibles teaching of how the sinner is saved. Love to all. Hoffco
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,865
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#91
No I think not. We all that do believe are works in progress God being ones teacher, the sooner we seek for that over man's doctrine the sooner we learn how to walk as Christ walked, being taught truth over error in the Spirit of God, because God by a free gift to us gives us new life in the Spirit via the resurrected Christ, And I know of no gift that can be earned. Any gift to me is appreciated and trust from me is given back to the life giver in thanksgiving and praises as King David said in Psalms 100:4
i realize it's not,,,that i made in response to post 29 and 36,,,,,because i was asking how they went from not being Christians to "following the lamb",,,which would mean that they were christian,,,, and that it has still not been addressed,,,,
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#92
You are correct salvation is not works based, but faith without works is dead.
Well then for this to coincide as it is truth Faith is dead without works, So the ? is who's works, not mine because why? no flesh pleases God ever except Christ's. So it can't be any of my works ever, it would have to God's through me as that is what was done through Christ God's works right?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,130
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#93
i realize it's not,,,that i made in response to post 29 and 36,,,,,because i was asking how they went from not being Christians to "following the lamb",,,which would mean that they were christian,,,, and that it has still not been addressed,,,,
Thanks, understand
 
L

LT

Guest
#94
Without being born again one can't see the kingdom of God. And are we not born again by God's Spirit, sealed with this promise of the very first day we believe God
Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
You would need to prove quite a few things first before making that statement.
You seem to assert that being 'indwelt with the Spirit' is the same as being 'born again' being the same as 'sealed with the Spirit', and that being the same as 'baptized in the Spirit', being the same as 'filled with the Spirit'. There are a lot of terms being used, and I don't think they are all synonymous. If you study each ones uses in the Bible, you will find they are not used interchangeably.

What I was saying is that we are not saved by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but are saved by faith alone, in Christ alone. The Holy Spirit is the sign of a saved person, and it comes AFTER salvation. If you turn it into anything else, you begin to err from Scripture.
I will give you an example:

Were the Old Testament saints 'born again'? If not, then how come they are also inheritors in the Kingdom?

If you begin to say that the Holy Spirit is required for salvation, then you have to add things into Old Testament Scripture that are not written there at all. By faith Abraham was saved, not by the Spirit.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#95
You would need to prove quite a few things first before making that statement.
You seem to assert that being 'indwelt with the Spirit' is the same as being 'born again' being the same as 'sealed with the Spirit', and that being the same as 'baptized in the Spirit', being the same as 'filled with the Spirit'. There are a lot of terms being used, and I don't think they are all synonymous. If you study each ones uses in the Bible, you will find they are not used interchangeably.

What I was saying is that we are not saved by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but are saved by faith alone, in Christ alone. The Holy Spirit is the sign of a saved person, and it comes AFTER salvation. If you turn it into anything else, you begin to err from Scripture.
I will give you an example:

Were the Old Testament saints 'born again'? If not, then how come they are also inheritors in the Kingdom?

If you begin to say that the Holy Spirit is required for salvation, then you have to add things into Old Testament Scripture that are not written there at all. By faith Abraham was saved, not by the Spirit.
Have you forgotten there was Abraham's bosom awaiting the cross and even Job said this that he knew his redeemer lives and would stand on the earth. Christ is the one that told Nicodemus that unless born again one can't see the kingdom. Flesh is flesh and Spirit is spirit
We might just have to agree to disagree and that is okay for I know it is God that gets us to stand not each other we just fellowship with each other in God's amazing love and do not force each other to drink what each other sees
Thanks
 
L

LT

Guest
#96
Have you forgotten there was Abraham's bosom awaiting the cross and even Job said this that he knew his redeemer lives and would stand on the earth. Christ is the one that told Nicodemus that unless born again one can't see the kingdom. Flesh is flesh and Spirit is spirit
We might just have to agree to disagree and that is okay for I know it is God that gets us to stand not each other we just fellowship with each other in God's amazing love and do not force each other to drink what each other sees
Thanks
I know what you are saying. I guess the debate is just over wording.
I believe faith comes first, which saves; then the Spirit comes. You believe faith comes, and then the Spirit comes, which saves.
I don't understand what Abraham's Bosom has to do with the Holy Spirit... Abraham's Bosom is not the Kingdom. It is the resting place, where the righteous wait for the Last Day.

I was asking if the OT saints were "born again". It is obvious they were saved, but was it by faith in God, and the coming Messiah, or was it by being baptized by the Holy Spirit? The Bible says it was by faith. The Bible never says that any of the OT saints were baptized or sealed by the Holy Spirit, yet they were still saved.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#97
Christ is the one that told Nicodemus that unless born again one can't see the kingdom. Flesh is flesh and Spirit is spirit
the only problem Home - and weve discussed this before (i know you reject water baptism, being a pentecostal-of-a-kind- dispensationalist)...is that Jesus did not say:

"Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of flesh and the Spirit.

Christ is the one that told Nicodemus that unless born again one can't see the kingdom. Flesh is flesh and Spirit is spirit
did He. He said:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

..


4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c 7Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ 8The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

what did Nicodemus know (or was supposed to know) about Israels practices.
 
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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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#98
I've yet to find any hint of dispensationalism in any bible.

Well Jimmy, I suggest that you first start reading the right Bible and then take time to study how God's dealing's with mankind changes from one dispensation (age) to another.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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#99


The bible clearly shows that The saints will be on the earth at the time of Jacobs trouble

Daniel 12

King James Version (KJV)

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:1-13 (Holy Bible)



Keep in mind Isdaniel, that the book of Daniel is a prophetic book in the Old Testament. It is a book that is Doctrinally pointed at Daniel's people (Israel).


When we compare the 12th chapter of the book of Daniel, this becomes very clear:



15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:15-27 (Holy Bible)



So the people that are referred to in Daniel 12:1 are the Jews (God's people).


This is clearly the case. Let's also see how Jeremiah 30:1-11 correlates with Daniel 9:15-24 & Daniel 12:1 and confirms perfectly this truth:



30 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. - Jeremiah 30:1-11 (Holy Bible)
 
L

LT

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Well Jimmy, I suggest that you first start reading the right Bible and then take time to study how God's dealing's with mankind changes from one dispensation (age) to another.
sorry man. respectable Dispys use NASB
jk,
but seriously
NASB with Ryrie study notes is a really good source if you are into Dispensationalism