The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Evmur]

So then you don't see this sheep/goats judgment as actually happening when Jesus returns and takes His throne? Or do you? I'm confused by your answer. Are you saying this is a retelling of the Great White Throne Judgment of the dead? Maybe you can clarify this for me.

Much love!

It is the final judgement in both accounts assigning to everyone who ever lived their final abode. they are the same.
In Matts account the King has gathered all nations and divided them with the sheep upon His right hand but the goats upon His left.
John in Revelations has them divided between "the living and the dead."

If they are as I have said neither the church nor yet the Jews then there is to be a much, much wider mercy than is commonly supposed or preached.

I have good solid scripture for my position, not the least of which [and should ring bells in the ears of all evangelicals] the sheep in Matthew are judged and REWARDED for their DEEDS. In Revelations they are judged according to their DEEDS. This most definitely contradicts the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith.

This is why this stoopid argument has raged for 2, 000 years in the church between who insist we must obey the law and do good deeds to be saved, they use the sheep and goats to illustrate their position, and those of us who believe we are saved by grace only through faith not our own.

Imma saying a wedge has been taken out of the gospel by the RCC i.e. the Millennium, but they have also gone deathly silent concerning the fact that there is to be a NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth.

Now if our dwelling is to be the heavenlies who are they who are to inhabit the new earth ? Defo Heaven and Earth are to be united in Christ yet still is there this distinction, Heaven and Earth.

The sheeps, those who are set upon His right hand who ministered to the needs of Christ and His brethren. The meek of the earth.

Blessed are the pure in heart, who hunger and thirst for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

Just the way Jesus addresses the sheeps, "Come ye blessed of My Father.... " He doesn't say YOUR Father or even THE Father bu My Father. Those sheep had no awareness of the doctrine concerning the indwelling Christ, they had no recognition that to minister to the church is to minister to Christ.

But He says "in as much as ye have done it to one the least of these My brethren ...." once again it is not YOUR brethren or THE brethren but My brethren.

I contend that the inheritance they are to receive which was planned for them from the beginning of the world is the new earth.

Our home is heaven.

 

[Evmur]

I was interested in when you see it happening.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Much love!

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

Matthew 24. 31 in my mind is speaking of the church, "from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other" speaks of to me the elect among the nations i.e. the church.

The Jews imho will already have been gathered.

The purpose for the gathering of the Jews into their own land and for the gathering of the church in the rapture is the same. It is to protect them from the wrath of God.

 

[ResidentAlien]

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

"You don't even understand that 'the new heavens and the earth' is simply a metaphor for the new covenant. The entire book of Revelation is not about the future, but surely you say, it is. OK. Prove it. Where in the book of Revelation do we read that this book was written for the far, far, far future? Chapter and verse, please!"

What absolute rubbish. Sometimes I think people must just sit around trying to make up ideas more ridiculous than the last.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

Matthew 24. 31 in my mind is speaking of the church, "from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other" speaks of to me the elect among the nations i.e. the church.

The Jews imho will already have been gathered.

The purpose for the gathering of the Jews into their own land and for the gathering of the church in the rapture is the same. It is to protect them from the wrath of God.

I agree 'Elect' - is a term used for The Church.

33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Rom 8


12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you,
so you also must do. Col 3


Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads
to godliness – Titus


ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) chosen, selected
The same word Jesus used in Matt 24, Mark 13 & Luke 18

 

[markss]

Why are you changing the subject? The question has to do with the timing of the return of Jesus Christ. To those who believe a rapture of the church will be before the great tribulation. I say the second coming is AFTER the tribulation, that is what my post are addressing. I don't care about the judgment of the goats etc. Stick to the topic. So again, what did I state that is not Biblical?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

This doctrine doesn't exist in a vacuum. You need not answer, no worries!

Much love!

 

[markss]

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

Matthew 24. 31 in my mind is speaking of the church, "from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other" speaks of to me the elect among the nations i.e. the church.

The Jews imho will already have been gathered.

The purpose for the gathering of the Jews into their own land and for the gathering of the church in the rapture is the same. It is to protect them from the wrath of God.

Do you see this being parallel?

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!

 

[markss]

It is the final judgement in both accounts assigning to everyone who ever lived their final abode. they are the same.

Isn't the sheep/goats after Jesus returns to the earth? While the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years? And isn't the sheep/goats judgment the gentile nations gathered, while the GWTJ is "the dead, small and great"? I see more differences also, but what do you think about these?

Much love!

 

[markss]

I think it is a mistake to assign only to the Jews the title elect.

At the time Jesus gave this prophecy,

"the chosen will be gathered from all over", and "the nations will be gathered to be judged", who would the Jews understand Jesus to be speaking of? The chosen, and the nations? Was "elect" used to designate a gentile church? Or was that only a number of years later in Paul's writing?

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

At the time Jesus gave this prophecy,

"the chosen will be gathered from all over", and "the nations will be gathered to be judged", who would the Jews understand Jesus to be speaking of? The chosen, and the nations? Was "elect" used to designate a gentile church? Or was that only a number of years later in Paul's writing?

Much love!

I understand this view but I believe Jesus often spoke over the heads of His Jewish audience

Love in Jesus.

 

[markss]

To those who believe a rapture of the church will be before the great tribulation. I say the second coming is AFTER the tribulation,

I believe the rapture will happen before the great tribulation, and the gathering of the elect is NOT the rapture of the church, which will have occurred by that time. The prophecy of the sheep/goats judgment, if you take it "as-is", disallows other views. So pretty much everyone I know who is not pre-trib also does not accept the sheep/goats prophecy exactly as it was given. They change it around, because it won't harmonize without that with any view except pre-trib and a certain version of pre-wrath, which has it's own problems.

If you want to follow this through just let me know.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

Isn't the sheep/goats after Jesus returns to the earth? While the Great White Throne Judgment after the 1000 years? And isn't the sheep/goats judgment the gentile nations gathered, while the GWTJ is "the dead, small and great"? I see more differences also, but what do you think about these?

Much love!

Paul doesn't speak of it in Thess. only the gathering of the church.

It depends what you think of the 1, 000 years, the common consensus seems to be He comes to save us and kill everybody else, exactly what the Jews thought. But Isaiah an' me envisage it as a time when the nations will flock to Israel, to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. When nations will study war no more.

 

[markss]

I understand this view but I believe Jesus often spoke over the heads of His Jewish audience

Love in Jesus.

Yes, that's a common understanding. I think that Jesus spoke to be understood in the language of His day. They didn't understand sometimes, but I don't think it's because His wording was unclear. For instance, He had prophesied His death several times, very plainly, but they for the most part did not understand. But the wording was clear.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

Do you see this being parallel?

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Much love!

I don't but I can see an argument for it. I believe Israel will have had a war wiv the arabs and won and expanded according to prophecy from Sinai to the Euphrates. A super power strong enough to have a peace pact with nastypants who will be running rampart destroying every trace of religion ... which pact he will break after 3 1/2 ryears.

 

[markss]

Paul doesn't speak of it in Thess. only the gathering of the church.

It depends what you think of the 1, 000 years, the common consensus seems to be He comes to save us and kill everybody else, exactly what the Jews thought. But Isaiah an' me envisage it as a time when the nations will flock to Israel, to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. When nations will study war no more.

As I see it written in the Bible, the Sheep/goats is at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the GWTJ after the 1000 years.

Jesus comes, regathers Israel to her promised land, then gathers the nations and judges them, only allowing the gentiles which helped Israel to remain, sending away the rest. The gathered Jews, and righteous gentiles will go on to live in the kingdom.

Much love!

 

[Evmur]

As I see it written in the Bible, the Sheep/goats is at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the GWTJ after the 1000 years.

Jesus comes, regathers Israel to her promised land, then gathers the nations and judges them, only allowing the gentiles which helped Israel to remain, sending away the rest. The gathered Jews, and righteous gentiles will go on to live in the kingdom.

Much love!

OK it's a reasonable proposition

Israel then will reign over who? who are they who come to learn the ways of the God of Jacob? who are they who refuse to come and are slain?

What decides me for one only last judgement at the end of the 1, 000 years is the permanence of their final assignments whether for reward or for punishment. that is in my mind finite, the end.

 

[markss]

Israel then will reign over who? who are they who come to learn the ways of the God of Jacob? who are they who refuse to come and are slain?

The nations who remain after the sheep/goats.

Much love!