The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Evmur]

How do you see the sheep/goats judgment in Matthew 25? Exactly as written? A gentile judgment when Jesus takes His throne after He returns?

Much love!

I could write a book, well at least a chapter.

Everybody has got this wrong except ME now I'm in trouble aren't I?

There cannot be but one final judgement, John calls it the great white throne. Jesus says at the last day.

The last day for the Jews is not the same as the last day for the church, the last day for the Jews is at the end of the 1, 000 years. For US our last day is the rapture which happened 1, 000 years previous. So we have reigned with Christ for a 1, 000 years in heaven, the Jews for a 1, 000 years upon earth.

THERE IS NO WAY we will be judged, NO WAY. We are neither the sheeps or the goats, we are "these My brethren ... in as much as ye have done it to one of the least of these My brethren ye have done it to Me"

As Paul teaches when He comes to judge God will bring us with Him. John teaches we are passed from judgement to life.

I hate to be controversial, I believe in orthodoxy, but there it is.

The key to all this is in the millennial doctrine which the RCC in all their wisdom [not] decided to drop the doctrine in favour of amillennialism. You can't DO that, just take a massive wedge outta the gospel, it has a knock on effect upon every other doctrine.

 

[Evmur]

When do you see the Jews being gathered, at that same time?

Much love!

What will cause it? the great Jewish migration, Jacob's trouble? a false prophet? I believe Israel will be a super power before the Lord comes.

 

[markss]

What will cause it? the great Jewish migration, Jacob's trouble? a false prophet? I believe Israel will be a super power before the Lord comes.

I was interested in when you see it happening.

Joel 3:1-2 KJV
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Much love!

 

[markss]

I believe Israel will be a super power before the Lord comes.

Zechariah 14:2-3 KJV
2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Much love!

 

[markss]

I could write a book, well at least a chapter.

Everybody has got this wrong except ME now I'm in trouble aren't I?

There cannot be but one final judgement, John calls it the great white throne. Jesus says at the last day.

The last day for the Jews is not the same as the last day for the church, the last day for the Jews is at the end of the 1, 000 years. For US our last day is the rapture which happened 1, 000 years previous. So we have reigned with Christ for a 1, 000 years in heaven, the Jews for a 1, 000 years upon earth.

THERE IS NO WAY we will be judged, NO WAY. We are neither the sheeps or the goats, we are "these My brethren ... in as much as ye have done it to one of the least of these My brethren ye have done it to Me"

As Paul teaches when He comes to judge God will bring us with Him. John teaches we are passed from judgement to life.

I hate to be controversial, I believe in orthodoxy, but there it is.

The key to all this is in the millennial doctrine which the RCC in all their wisdom [not] decided to drop the doctrine in favour of amillennialism. You can't DO that, just take a massive wedge outta the gospel, it has a knock on effect upon every other doctrine.

So then you don't see this sheep/goats judgment as actually happening when Jesus returns and takes His throne? Or do you? I'm confused by your answer. Are you saying this is a retelling of the Great White Throne Judgment of the dead? Maybe you can clarify this for me.

Much love!

 

[bluto]

In that the church was revealed through Paul, Jesus did not reveal the church, therefore, His prophecies were not concerning the church, therefore, His prophecies were concerning Israel.

Jesus was not prophesying the rapture of the church in the gathering of the elect in the Olivette Discourse. He was prophesying the gathering of the surviving Israelites to their promised land.

Much love!

You know, (and I mean this respectively), I learned over 5 and half decades ago not to make "blunt" statements like this: "In that the church was revealed through Paul, Jesus did not reveal the church," It's akin to another statement I hear from people which is, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Never mind the fact that others including the Apostle Paul stated Jesus was God, and so did Thomas.

My point is the fact that you had better know your Bible before making such statements. I give you Matthew 16:17. "And Jesus said to Peter, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[markss]

You know, (and I mean this respectively), I learned over 5 and half decades ago not to make "blunt" statements like this: "In that the church was revealed through Paul, Jesus did not reveal the church," It's akin to another statement I hear from people which is, "Jesus never claimed to be God." Never mind the fact that others including the Apostle Paul stated Jesus was God, and so did Thomas.

My point is the fact that you had better know your Bible before making such statements. I give you Matthew 16:17. "And Jesus said to Peter, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

It's a point well made, and I appreciate your post!

I think these two things are slightly different though, one being the use of a particular word within that language, the other being the correlation of quotes from Jesus and others with teaching given about Him, yielding a particular doctrine in the successful harmonization of all those.

And in Jesus' prophecy in the Olivette Discourse, I've come to find that it will only harmonize with a pre-trib rapture. Pre-wrath and Post-Trib rapture timings create irreconcilable conflicts with various Scriptures, and this one in particular.

Much love!

 

[bluto]

It's a point well made, and I appreciate your post!

I think these two things are slightly different though, one being the use of a particular word within that language, the other being the correlation of quotes from Jesus and others with teaching given about Him, yielding a particular doctrine in the successful harmonization of all those.

And in Jesus' prophecy in the Olivette Discourse, I've come to find that it will only harmonize with a pre-trib rapture. Pre-wrath and Post-Trib rapture timings create irreconcilable conflicts with various Scriptures, and this one in particular.

Much love!

I believe the post-tribulation view point is easily harmonized with Scripture. Please read my post #8 and especially my post #90. Tell me where you think I am wrong and why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[markss]

I believe the post-tribulation view point is easily harmonized with Scripture. Please read my post #8 and especially my post #90. Tell me where you think I am wrong and why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

If I understand what you are saying in those posts, the fact that there are people being warned by God to flee Judea at the onset of the great tribulation, then there can't have been a rapture before, else, where would these people come from?

Is that the idea?

Much love!

 

[markss]

I believe the post-tribulation view point is easily harmonized with Scripture. Please read my post #8 and especially my post #90. Tell me where you think I am wrong and why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

What do you think about the sheep/goats judgment? Do you see it being fulfilled exactly as it's written? That after Jesus returns, the chosen are gathered, and then Jesus takes His throne, and then the nations are gathered and separated, based on the criteria Jesus describes?

I see it exactly that way, parallel to Joel 3. You?

Much love!

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Both charts are WRONG ???????---actually this is the THIRD Chart that I posted that confirms Pre--Trib Rapture----

and---- you people who don't believe in the PRE_TRIB are all Right in your understanding ????????-----

So show the evidence in a graph that says ---the Rapture is not pre Trib -------where is the evidence that proves your point ------cause Scripture goes against your theory -------

Your formula works only in religious circles. It sounds like you have a crystal ball that has told you all about the future. Witchcraft is what this chart is all about. Total nonsense. Nothing like this will ever, ever take place because it is flawed at the root. You don't even understand that "the new heavens and the earth" is simply a metaphor for the new covenant. The entire book of Revelation is not about the future, but surely you say, it is. OK. Prove it. Where in the book of Revelation do we read that this book was written for the far, far, far future? Chapter and verse, please!

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Both charts are WRONG ???????---actually this is the THIRD Chart that I posted that confirms Pre--Trib Rapture----

and---- you people who don't believe in the PRE_TRIB are all Right in your understanding ????????-----

So show the evidence in a graph that says ---the Rapture is not pre Trib -------where is the evidence that proves your point ------cause Scripture goes against your theory -------

This is not God's prophetic plan, but man's who has failed to read the book of Revelation as the Revelation of Jesus Christ, not a revelation of the future. Let's grow up, OK?

 

[cv5]

They all say about the same thing, Jesus will come and gather His church and in the ensuing chaos Antichrist [the Beast] will come forward and force everyone to receive his mark or die, this is the great tribulation. But there is a killer flaw here.

The beast has been slain in the temple when he sat and declared that he himself is God.

He is destroyed by the brightness of our Lord's appearing and by the breath of His nostrils. No more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution. All that happens BEFORE our Lord Jesus returns,

When Jesus comes He comes to reign.

There will be a period when all the nations that came up to Jerusalem with the beast and all those who did receive his mark will be receive their just deserts a period of 7 years which is all laid out in Revelations. Then the reign of righteousness, peace and prosperity will begin. He will reign through the Jews converted at His appearing.

The church should be looking for the Antichrist, they should be preparing for the awful persecution that is coming ... these times are upon us now and the church is not ready.

Bro....only those who don't know what they are talking about deny the pre-trib rapture. As your post confirms in spades.

 

[cv5]

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great glory and power and He shall send forth His angels to gather His elect from the four winds"

...Jesus was post trib.

Wrong. Jesus is sending angels to gather His elect ISRAELITES one by one. So described in Isaiah 27.....

The Church has been raptured pre-trib as illustrated in Rev 4 & 5.

Isa 27:12
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Isa 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

 

[cv5]

in Revelations.

A common mistake for the clueless.....

 

[cv5]

W

Wrong. Jesus is sending angels to gather His elect ISRAELITES one by one. So described in Isaiah 27.....

The Church has been raptured pre-trib as illustrated in Rev 4 & 5.

Isa 27:12
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Isa 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. (Deuteronomy 30:1-4)

And He will lift up a standard for the nations, and will assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:12)

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Bro....only those who don't know what they are talking about deny the pre-trib rapture. As your post confirms in spades.

It is you who doesn't know what you are talking about. If I asked you a simple question, would you be able to find the answer? I think not because there is nothing there.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Wrong. Jesus is sending angels to gather His elect ISRAELITES one by one. So described in Isaiah 27.....

The Church has been raptured pre-trib as illustrated in Rev 4 & 5.

Isa 27:12
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Isa 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

You need to stop drinking Kool-Aid.

 

[bluto]

You wrote a lot of stuff but you can't prove or pinpoint that there is a Rapture before the great tribulation. And quoting "got questions" won't cut it either. So let me explain my view based on the Biblical record. At Matthew 24:3 the disciples ask Jesus a very specific question? " Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD."

From verses 4-14 Jesus explains the state of the world. At vs15 is the tip off? The first word is "Therefore, (referring to the previous verses) when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place. (let the reader understand). Or here is what you should do from verses 16-28/ In short, Jesus says get out of Dodge.

Vs29, BUT immediately after the tribulation of those days The Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, vs30, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ands then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Vs31, "And He (who's the He)? will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Now, can you please explain to me where in this discourse do you find a rapture of the Church before these things take place? Also notice the following verses. The first one is at 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. Vs6, "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you." How is God going to repay? Vs7, "and to give you REST/RELIEF to you who are afflicted and to us as well when (WHEN DO WE GET REST?) the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire."

You can read the rest of the verses yourself but look at vs10, "when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed." The Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus stated at Matthew 24 and this is bore out in the rest of 2 Thessalonians.

One more item of interest at 1 John 2:18. "Children it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist (singular) is coming, even now many antichrist have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour." So here's my question? Why would the Apostle John tell us to look or be aware of the antichrist if nobody is going to be around because they have been raptured?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

What do you think about the sheep/goats judgment? Do you see it being fulfilled exactly as it's written? That after Jesus returns, the chosen are gathered, and then Jesus takes His throne, and then the nations are gathered and separated, based on the criteria Jesus describes?

I see it exactly that way, parallel to Joel 3. You?

Much love!

Why are you changing the subject? The question has to do with the timing of the return of Jesus Christ. To those who believe a rapture of the church will be before the great tribulation. I say the second coming is AFTER the tribulation, that is what my post are addressing. I don't care about the judgment of the goats etc. Stick to the topic. So again, what did I state that is not Biblical?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[cv5]

It is you who doesn't know what you are talking about. If I asked you a simple question, would you be able to find the answer? I think not because there is nothing there.

Answers are everywhere on CC. Do a search on all of the rapture threads. The pretrib rapture wins all of the debates hands-down every single time.

Frankly I myself don't need answers I have all of them already. If you are intellectually honest you can find them yourself.