The Lake of Fire

[JaumeJ]

I been researching a little bit of this and depending on the context, is the reference is to "valley of Hinnom "?

The old city of Jerusalem has many gates, Herod's, Jaffa (Beautiful), etc. If memory serves me, the dung gate opens to the valley you mention where, you guessed it, was thrown......

 

[Diakonos]

Hello Diakonos,

I believe that Hevosmies was referring to Blain's claim of visiting Hell (Sheol/Hades) and not the lake of fire. Just as Lazarus nor the rich man could not go back up to the earth to warn the rich mans brothers, neither would anyone else who went to Hades be able to come back.

Thank you @Ahwatukee for your comments. You are absolutely correct about those 3 places and God's purpose for them.
I was going to point out to @Hevosmies that Hades is not synonymous with Hell, but rather it is a waiting place for judgment.
The clear distinction is made in Revelation 20:14
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."
Luke 16 is a description of Hades, not Hell. People often mistakenly assume they are the same

 

[Journeyman]

John is calling apostate Jerusalem figuratively the "whore of Babylon" just as he called them "Sodom" and "Egypt" in Rev 11:8

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

He's calling the true Jews to come out of her and equating the apostate temple cult and it's city with Egypt because like when in Egypt they were in bondage/slavery as Paul states:

Gal 4:25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.

Rev 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

I hear what you're saying. Apostate Jerusalem is a daughter of "great Babylon ". Babylon is Babel, the mother which gave birth to all apostasy. It's a religious spirit or influence that forgets God.

 

[Blain]

I apologize for the late reply I have been having sleeping issues. Regardless if anyone believes I have seen hell and been there is not important what is important is to understand that it is in fact an actual place not just an idea or a state of mind. I understand that the idea of eternal torment in writhing pain and fire is not pleasant and maybe people cannot fathom why a God of love would throw people into that however that still doesn't change how things are.

Believe me I would give anything for it to not be real and for eternal torment to not be a thing and just a lie but even if I hadn't seen what I did the bible is clear about it

 

[Ahwatukee]

I been researching a little bit of this and depending on the context, is the reference is to "valley of Hinnom "?

Hello Alertandawake,

You are correct. It was a place at the south end of Jerusalem which was always on fire due to the burning of trash, animal and human carcasses, etc. Jesus used this place in the figurative sense in referring to Gehenna, the lake of fire, the final destination of the wicked.

 

[Lanolin]

Fire refines and purifies as well as destroys.
The wicked are burned up, the righteous are saved.

Think of this when you are cooking anything in a wok of hot oil or bbq. If you coat any thing in oil (anointing) they will be juicy and preserved but if you fail to marinate them they will be charred and burned to ashes.

I do believe the bible eternal torment can be interpreted different ways, eternal torment meaning that this lake of fire will be there forever and that ones eternal destination for the wicked. And eternity in heaven for the righteous for ever and ever. Since the devil cant die he will be tormented forever and ever. There is a second death which all the wicked are going to be destroyed.

 

[JaumeJ]

You remind me of the teaching in Isaiah where our Father tells us He refines us, but not as gold or silver is refined, no, but in the furnace of affliction.

Whis is this? Our Father says he does it so we not be cut off...…….this tells me we are of great value, refined, to our father…… His treasure, though you could have fooled me... I do see this in others. All you who love Jesus, Yeshua, are great treasure to Him it seems.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Fire refines and purifies as well as destroys.
The wicked are burned up, the righteous are saved.

Think of this when you are cooking anything in a wok of hot oil or bbq. If you coat any thing in oil (anointing) they will be juicy and preserved but if you fail to marinate them they will be charred and burned to ashes.

I do believe the bible eternal torment can be interpreted different ways, eternal torment meaning that this lake of fire will be there forever and that ones eternal destination for the wicked. And eternity in heaven for the righteous for ever and ever. Since the devil cant die he will be tormented forever and ever. There is a second death which all the wicked are going to be destroyed.

Hello again Lanolin,

The word "destroyed" which is translated from the Greek "apollumi, apoleia and Olethros" does not carry the meaning of destruction as is in annihilation or extinction. The meaning is "to be completely cut off, complete loss of well being, ruination." Scripture makes it very clear that the punishment for the wicked will be on-going conscious existence. Both the words apoleia, which is the noun of apollumi, both stemming from "olethros" are defined as the following:

"apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Examples of the word Olethros and Apoleia used in scripture, respectively"

"They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might," - 2 Thes.1:9

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it. - Matt.7:13

Both of the scriptures above are referring to everlasting punishment, which again, as can be seen by their definition (highlighted in red) which can neither imply extinction, or annihilation.

What has happened is that, people have taken the translated word "destruction" and attached the primary English translation with the meaning of annihilation, extinction, obliteration or non-existence, which is not the meaning of those Greek words.

According to scripture death and life are both states of eternal existence.

Eternal Life = On-going existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = On-going existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

 

[Journeyman]

I apologize for the late reply I have been having sleeping issues. Regardless if anyone believes I have seen hell and been there is not important what is important is to understand that it is in fact an actual place not just an idea or a state of mind. I understand that the idea of eternal torment in writhing pain and fire is not pleasant and maybe people cannot fathom why a God of love would throw people into that however that still doesn't change how things are.

Believe me I would give anything for it to not be real and for eternal torment to not be a thing and just a lie but even if I hadn't seen what I did the bible is clear about it

I don't believe the lake of fire is an idea or state of mind. It's Christ himself who destroys death When death is "cast into" the lake of fire. death no longer exists.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't believe the lake of fire is an idea or state of mind. It's Christ himself who destroys death When death is "cast into" the lake of fire. death no longer exists.

Hello Journeyman,

The lake of fire is a place of eternal punishment. Everyone who ends up there, the beast, false prophet, Satan, fallen angels and human beings who die in their sins rejecting Christ, will exist there forever. There is no annihilation, extinction or obliteration there. The description of the fire "everlasting and eternal is in reference those in it. This is supported by the scripture which says, "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. And they shall have no rest (intermission, cessation) day or night" in said torment in flame. Consequently, one would have to be existing in order to experience having no rest day or night.

Regarding death and Hades, though death is a state of existence and Hades is a location under the earth for departed spirits, they are also personified represented by actual entities, who will also exist in the lake of fire forever.

 

[Alertandawake]

Looking at it from another angle, context is the key here, depending on what passages are read, one can see a reference to never ending torment.

I suppose the question is to those that are thrown into the lake of fire in the context of eternal punishment, the ones that get thrown into such a lake, is their body in a state of perpetual regeneration of some kind? Flesh burns, regenerate, flesh burns regenerate, a never ending cycle.

 

[Diakonos]

If "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is in the present tense (ongoing action), that means that people in Hell will continually have teeth and eyeballs and tear glands, hence, an immortal body.

Also, in Psalm 104, the spirit of animals are shown to "expire" when they die.
We see no such description of humanity.
Humanity is different than animals because

We are made in the image of God, according to His likeness (We have a soul, animals do not).
God breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils.

...our consciousness continues on forever, either in the presence of God or apart from Him

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, for the record I personally believe the lake of fire is a literal place of torment and everyone that is not written in the book of the living will pay the price eternally in the lake of fire. I also believe hell is literal and right now the lost that have passed from this life are being held there until the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20. I also believe God is just and fair in the sense that there will be levels of afforded punishment based upon the works that the lost have done---->I.E. it will be hotter and the pain more intense for those people like Hitler than the little old lady that was morally decent yet lost......and for sure the hottest for the false teachers that lead men to hell......

 

[Sipsey]

There is a reference to Satan and his angels being cast into the lake of fire for 1,000 years, and then released for short time. So they were not destroyed in that 1,000 year period.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Looking at it from another angle, context is the key here, depending on what passages are read, one can see a reference to never ending torment.

I suppose the question is to those that are thrown into the lake of fire in the context of eternal punishment, the ones that get thrown into such a lake, is their body in a state of perpetual regeneration of some kind? Flesh burns, regenerate, flesh burns regenerate, a never ending cycle.

Hello again,

According to Dan.12:2, Acts 24:15, John 5:28 and Rev.20:11-15, there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. The word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is defined by two words "ana -up and "hestemi" to stand, properly to "stand up again." Jesus is the example of standing up again in the same body.

After the thousand year reign of Christ, the great white throne judgment will take place, which will involve all of the unrighteous dead from the beginning of time up to that judgement. These are those who according to Rev.20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete," and that because they died in their sins and therefore were not worthy of the first resurrection.

Both righteous and wicked will receive a resurrected body. The righteous will be raised in an immortal and glorified body, where the wicked will be resurrected in a body mete for their punishment, i.e. it will feel the pain of torment in the flame, but won't be burnt up. This is supported by the scripture which says, "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night."

 

[Journeyman]

Hello Journeyman,
The lake of fire is a place of eternal punishment. Everyone who ends up there, the beast, false prophet, Satan, fallen angels and human beings who die in their sins rejecting Christ, will exist there forever. There is no annihilation, extinction or obliteration there. The description of the fire "everlasting and eternal is in reference those in it. This is supported by the scripture which says, "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. And they shall have no rest (intermission, cessation) day or night" in said torment in flame. Consequently, one would have to be existing in order to experience having no rest day or night.

Regarding death and Hades, though death is a state of existence and Hades is a location under the earth for departed spirits, they are also personified represented by actual entities, who will also exist in the lake of fire forever.

Hello Ahwatukee. In Jude 1:7, the example of eternal fire is annihilation. So, the description of the fire everlasting and eternal doesn't necessitate unending torture.

The passage you alluuded to from Rev.14:11 isn't about eternal suffering in the afterlife. If it was, the faith and patience (endurance) of the saints "here" (vs.12) would have nothing to do with the passage. Also, the wrath of God being poured out on the earth, is in this life, not the world to come. So the text is about this life this life, not the afterlife.

The term "forever" doesn't always mean eternal, but also means "until the end of a persons life, as in Ex.21:6. So when speaking of those who love antichrist, those who hate God, "forever and ever" means throughout the lives of the wicked. This agrees with,

the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. Is.57:20-21

He doesn't mean the ungodly never sleep or enjoy reading a book. He's speaking of not having the peace only God can give and being tormented now and at the judgment seat of Christ when his sins are laid bare.

Have you noticed only one person in this thread challenged any scripture I cited? And that person pointed out mountains melting at God's presence is figurative language, (which is true, because the proud are brought to nothing by Christ),
but doesn't preclude they will also someday be disolved.

So I ask you, is the beast destroyed by the Lords presence as Paul says in Thessalonians, or in the lake of fire as Revelation says?

 

[Journeyman]

Looking at it from another angle, context is the key here, depending on what passages are read, one can see a reference to never ending torment.

I suppose the question is to those that are thrown into the lake of fire in the context of eternal punishment, the ones that get thrown into such a lake, is their body in a state of perpetual regeneration of some kind? Flesh burns, regenerate, flesh burns regenerate, a never ending cycle.

I think proponents of eternal torment have the context backwards. The lake of fire annihilates death, not perpetuates it.

 

[Journeyman]

Well, for the record I personally believe the lake of fire is a literal place of torment and everyone that is not written in the book of the living will pay the price eternally in the lake of fire. I also believe hell is literal and right now the lost that have passed from this life are being held there until the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20. I also believe God is just and fair in the sense that there will be levels of afforded punishment based upon the works that the lost have done---->I.E. it will be hotter and the pain more intense for those people like Hitler than the little old lady that was morally decent yet lost......and for sure the hottest for the false teachers that lead men to hell......

God punishes people to make them consider their ways and turn to him repentantly. There's no point to unending punishment.

 

[Journeyman]

If "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is in the present tense (ongoing action), that means that people in Hell will continually have teeth and eyeballs and tear glands, hence, an immortal body.

Also, in Psalm 104, the spirit of animals are shown to "expire" when they die.
We see no such description of humanity.
Humanity is different than animals because

We are made in the image of God, according to His likeness (We have a soul, animals do not).
God breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils.

...our consciousness continues on forever, either in the presence of God or apart from Him

Only God is immortal (1Tim.6:16). God may grant immortaliy to creation, but the fact that all are created is proof in itself that nothing about us is immortal.

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (soul) that hath life Gen.1:20

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee. In Jude 1:7, the example of eternal fire is annihilation. So, the description of the fire everlasting and eternal doesn't necessitate unending torture.

That is not correct! The lake of fire is never described as annihilation, ever. It is a place described as "where the fire is not quenched," everlasting, eternal, etc. It is a place of final, on-going punishment. Let's look at Jude 1:7:

"In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire."

What the scripture is saying is that, those who were indulging in a same-sex life style, their flesh was burnt up when God rained fire and sulfur upon Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. And once their bodies were burnt up, their spirits, like the rich man's, went down into Sheol/Hades where their spirits are conscious and aware in torment in flame. They, along with everyone else who dies in their sins, will be resurrected out of Hades, only to be cast into the lake of fire after judgment. Furthermore, one cannot weep and gnash ones teeth if one is annihilated.

You can't have the Lake of Fire refer to eternal punishment in place and then have it refer to annihilation elsewhere in scripture. It is a place of eternal, conscious punishment. Here is another example demonstrating the lake of fire as being on-going punishment:

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

An individual would have to be existing in order to be tormented in the presence of the holy angles and the Lamb, as well as to experience no rest day or night. In addition, the word translated "torment" is defined as "torture."

The passage you alluuded to from Rev.14:11 isn't about eternal suffering in the afterlife. If it was, the faith and patience (endurance) of the saints "here" (vs.12) would have nothing to do with the passage.

That's because Rev.14:11 is not speaking about the great tribulation saints, but is speaking about those whose names were not written in the book of life from before the world began. The faith and patient endurance of the saints is to keep their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and to resist the beast, his image and his mark.

Also, the wrath of God being poured out on the earth, is in this life, not the world to come. So the text is about this life this life, not the afterlife.

The wrath of God, also known as "the day of the Lord, the day of vengeance of our God and the hour of trial," is when God will pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. God's wrath will also take place at the great white throne judgment when everyone whose name is not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

The term "forever" doesn't always mean eternal, but also means "until the end of a persons life, as in Ex.21:6. So when speaking of those who love antichrist, those who hate God, "forever and ever" means throughout the lives of the wicked. This agrees with,

The above is also false! The word aion and aionios translated as "eternal" is defined as "an age, a cycle of time or without end." It is the context that will bear out the meaning. At the great white throne judgment, the wicked will receive indestructible resurrected bodied mete for their punishment. The lake of fire has to do with punishment after this life.

I have been studying eschatology for over 45 years and that with the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. You people who believe in annihilation and extinction instead of what scripture proclaims, are not representing the word of God.

According to you and others, if annihilation were true, then all of those people who have committed suicide would be getting exactly what they wanted, which is to become non-existent, fade to black. However, that is not what happened to them. Those who were not in Christ who have committed suicide very quickly found out that their spirits continued to be conscious and aware and found themselves in the same place where the rich man went, which was Sheol/Hades in torment in flame.

You need to stop teaching such things and do some more study on this subject, because as it is, you are distorting the word of God with your teaching. I guarantee you that, there are many people who want nothing to do with God and would be willing to be annihilated/extinct rather than give themselves over to God. However, it is a totally different story if the punishment is eternal, never ending.