The Lake of Fire

[Journeyman]

Death is personified in Revelation. And death is *destroyed* by being abolished. That happens AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and just BEFORE the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.

And death and hell [HADES] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death... And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev 20:14; 21:1)

Since death and Hades cannot be literally cast into the Lake of Fire, they are personified. What it actually means is that death will be abolished from the earth because sin and evil will be eradicated from the earth, and all the unbelievers, the wicked and the evildoers will be in the Lake of Fire (which is in outer darkness, meaning outside of space). Therefore there will be no need for Hades either, which was for the unrighteous dead.

I just showed you where the glorification of the saints is the end of death, the "last enemy", but you edited that out of my post, ignored it.

Sin, evil and death are defeated, done, gone, eradicated, by Jesus, no one or no other thing is necessary. And this was my point in the op, where the antichrist is destroyed by the very presence of Jesus himself, And this point has also been ignored by everyone in this thread who is in favor of never ending torture.

Comparing scripture is good. We should never deny what scripture says. But when we ignore and simply quote a view that seems to oppose, then all were doing berry picking, denying what scripture says.

The lake of fire, outer darkness, meaning outside of space?

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels Mt.25:41

When was this "outside of space" prepared? The beginning of creation? After the devil and his angels sinned? Or does he mean God in human flesh was prepared to destroy satan and his angels? God was prepared in weakess to triumph over Satan? The God Man, who eradicated sin and death? Yes, I believe the latter.

God doesn't need to make "outside of space" to deal with anyone. All God needs to do is us who he is. And so Jesus in glory, only need be feared by those who imagined themselves or someone other than the true God to be gods.

 

[Lanolin]

I guess I'm a "now" mil.


I have and I will ask you to do the same.


I agree with what Isaiah is saying, but not how you understand him. You're understanding is exactly how Jews who reject Jesus read the passage. The argument that, "Jesus isn't the Messiah, because the Messiah will bring world peace.

We need to interpret Isaiah in light of what Jesus said.

Isaiah said the Messiah would being peace to the world, not world peace.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn.14:27

So the nations (the gentiles) who beat their swords into plowshares are believers in Christ, not every person on earth.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa.2:2

People from all nations, not every person in every nation, will come to his church,

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa.11:9

The knowledge of God comes from the gospel being spread to the world, but "they" (Christs followers, in the church, in Gods holy mountain) do not hurt or destroy..

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb.12:22

Ok but you havent explained how God is going to judge those who dont repent. It seeems in your view there isnt going to be any judgement day for the wicked. GOd needs to eradicate the wicked somehow, thats why theres seven plagues. Unless this has already happened? If so, when? Why is there srill wickedness around us and where is our new heaven and new earth? How is it we cant just rock up to the New Jerusalem, and visit Jesus in person?

 

[Journeyman]

Without Jesus their would be no option of repentance!

No, without believing in God, there's no option for repentance.

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41

Jesus came to us so we would have faith in God,

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21

He took upon himself the wrath of God that all believers deserve because of sin

No, he came as a witness that sinners hate God and proved it by what sinners did to him,

The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Jn.7:7

He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23

He met the righteous requirements of the law on every believers behalf

Yes, he did, sinless, to rise from the dead, so that our faith would be in God. Putting an innocent man to death is not a righteous requirement of the law. Its an abomination to God.

He paid the penalty for our sins by the shedding of His blood. For scripture states that "unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins.

No, almost all things. And shedding of blood shows a life completely devoted to God,

You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin. Heb.12:4

This is the truth and I am not going to debate it with you any longer. Believe what you will.

No it isn't the truth. I was indoctrinated with the same heresy.[/QUOTE]

 

[Journeyman]

At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released from the Abyss and will deceive the inhabitants of the earth one last

No brother. Satan goes out to deceive Gog and Magog. Look,

Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog....And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze.39.1,17-18

This is the battle with the beast,

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev.19:17-18

Rev.19--20 describe the same battle, only in different ways,

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Rev.13:2

And all the world (except of believers) worships this beast. There isn't going to be an all out war....and then another one one thousand years later.

 

[Hevosmies]

Oy vey.

The more amillennial literature I read, the more holes I can poke in it.

I think its time to ditch this one in the trash heap of history. The early church was premillennial. The reason why people switched was because the church was winning by the time Augustine rolled up. Catholic church had everything "on lock" and the premillennial idea of a great falling away and things going worse and worse followed by Jesus' return and establishment of the kingdom didnt fit that idea. Augustine also came from a gnostic background before he got saved, which you can clearly see in his views where everything material is always explained away as an allegory and even sex within marriage was frowned upon by him (no lie), and I suspect THIS is the reason why the LITERAL PHYSICAL millennium on earth was a problem.

Amillennialism served good purposes to the catholic church because it allows them to REIGN/RULE over people right now, since the "millennium" is present. It also explained away those verses about Israel being regathered, and that as we know fits the catholic dogma perfectly.
When the protestant reformation occured, Luther and Calvin were both HEAVILY influenced by Augustine's writings, which is why they continued in amillennialism, they also had bigger fish to fry so to speak, and neither did any considerable work on Revelation / eschatology.

I realize amillennialism has a couple of proof-texts, but the simplest way to refute this is:

Revelation 12 satan is deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now). In revelation 20 satan is bound from deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now).

^Clearly we see, nations are deceived today. So satan is not bound.I also considered amillennialism and have listened to podcasts on it, but once you see the above ^ it really should make you reconsider. HOW can satan be deceiving and not deceiving the nations at the same time? Bound and not bound?

 

[Sipsey]

Oy vey.

The more amillennial literature I read, the more holes I can poke in it.

I think its time to ditch this one in the trash heap of history. The early church was premillennial. The reason why people switched was because the church was winning by the time Augustine rolled up. Catholic church had everything "on lock" and the premillennial idea of a great falling away and things going worse and worse followed by Jesus' return and establishment of the kingdom didnt fit that idea. Augustine also came from a gnostic background before he got saved, which you can clearly see in his views where everything material is always explained away as an allegory and even sex within marriage was frowned upon by him (no lie), and I suspect THIS is the reason why the LITERAL PHYSICAL millennium on earth was a problem.

Amillennialism served good purposes to the catholic church because it allows them to REIGN/RULE over people right now, since the "millennium" is present. It also explained away those verses about Israel being regathered, and that as we know fits the catholic dogma perfectly.
When the protestant reformation occured, Luther and Calvin were both HEAVILY influenced by Augustine's writings, which is why they continued in amillennialism, they also had bigger fish to fry so to speak, and neither did any considerable work on Revelation / eschatology.

I realize amillennialism has a couple of proof-texts, but the simplest way to refute this is:

Revelation 12 satan is deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now). In revelation 20 satan is bound from deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now).

^Clearly we see, nations are deceived today. So satan is not bound.I also considered amillennialism and have listened to podcasts on it, but once you see the above ^ it really should make you reconsider. HOW can satan be deceiving and not deceiving the nations at the same time? Bound and not bound?

My experience matches yours with reading about the error Augustine perpetrated.

 

[Diakonos]

Diakonos, I have heard what you're saying in many different churches. I have seriously prayed and examined this doctrine. I disagree with it my friend and here's why,

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jn.17:16
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son Col.1:13
he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Heb.13:5
And remember, I am with you always Mt.28:20

I realize letting Jesus in person comes later, but we are separated from unbelievers because Christ is in us now. We are in the world but not of it. His judgment later shows, proves, manifests what was true now.

Examine the "great white throne" judgment next to the "judgment seat of Christ" and without adding anything to the text, is anything different? I don't mean is anything missing. Don't read anything into the text. Is any one element different from the other?

The clearest detail is in the Greek word used for "judgment" for "judgment seat of Christ"
Its not the normal word used: "Krino", its the word "Bema".
So its an event of awards, not destination decision

 

[Journeyman]

Ok but you havent explained how God is going to judge those who dont repent. It seeems in your view there isnt going to be any judgement day for the wicked. GOd needs to eradicate the wicked somehow

God will judge the wicked by the testimony of Jesus Christ,
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jn.12:48.

Also, this truth, believed and shared by Jesus's followers and revealed as we stand being seen immortalized at his judgment seat will also condemn the wicked,

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? 1Cor.6:3

No finger pointing is necessary. The truth will speak for itself.

thats why theres seven plagues. Unless this has already happened?

God has sent plagues throughout history. Near the very end, they will intensify. God sends plagues on sinners so they repent. Some curse God for this, others consider.

If so, when? Why is there srill wickedness around us

Think back to when we lived wickedly and the answer becomes clear.

and where is our new heaven and new earth?

The new heaven and earth is seen when we come to know Christ. We no longer have vain imaginations about who heaven and earth belong to. We understand we're no better than others, but forgiven. We see where God dwells and his love for us like we never did before,

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy, But I say unto you, Love your enemies Mt.5:43-44

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Cor.5:17

The creation as we now see it hasn't been literally tranformed yet, as God has a commandment of sowing and reaping and harvest time is in his own time.

How is it we cant just rock up to the New Jerusalem, and visit Jesus in person?

The bride is only partly dressed,

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb.11:39-40

 

[Journeyman]

Oy vey.

The more amillennial literature I read, the more holes I can poke in it.

I think its time to ditch this one in the trash heap of history. The early church was premillennial. The reason why people switched was because the church was winning by the time Augustine rolled up. Catholic church had everything "on lock" and the premillennial idea of a great falling away and things going worse and worse followed by Jesus' return and establishment of the kingdom didnt fit that idea. Augustine also came from a gnostic background before he got saved, which you can clearly see in his views where everything material is always explained away as an allegory and even sex within marriage was frowned upon by him (no lie), and I suspect THIS is the reason why the LITERAL PHYSICAL millennium on earth was a problem.

Amillennialism served good purposes to the catholic church because it allows them to REIGN/RULE over people right now, since the "millennium" is present. It also explained away those verses about Israel being regathered, and that as we know fits the catholic dogma perfectly.
When the protestant reformation occured, Luther and Calvin were both HEAVILY influenced by Augustine's writings, which is why they continued in amillennialism, they also had bigger fish to fry so to speak, and neither did any considerable work on Revelation / eschatology.

I realize amillennialism has a couple of proof-texts, but the simplest way to refute this is:

Revelation 12 satan is deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now). In revelation 20 satan is bound from deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now).

^Clearly we see, nations are deceived today. So satan is not bound.I also considered amillennialism and have listened to podcasts on it, but once you see the above ^ it really should make you reconsider. HOW can satan be deceiving and not deceiving the nations at the same time? Bound and not bound?

Your still interpreting "nations" as "whole countries", or "the whole world". This world, from which the beast comes and all the powers of darkness picked a fight with the Messiah and lost. This gospel began in Jerusalem and spread,

so that he might not deceive the nations (gentiles) any longer Rev.20:3

No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strongman; and then he will spoil his house.Mk.3:27

In other words, Jesus entered the world, rose from the dead and saves those who belonged to the devil.

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Jn.16:33

Okay?

 

[Journeyman]

The clearest detail is in the Greek word used for "judgment" for "judgment seat of Christ"
Its not the normal word used: "Krino", its the word "Bema".
So its an event of awards, not destination decision

Brother, bema was translated "judgment seat" because government officials sat there when determining where people would go (Jn.19:13).

 

[Lanolin]

Oy vey.

The more amillennial literature I read, the more holes I can poke in it.

I think its time to ditch this one in the trash heap of history. The early church was premillennial. The reason why people switched was because the church was winning by the time Augustine rolled up. Catholic church had everything "on lock" and the premillennial idea of a great falling away and things going worse and worse followed by Jesus' return and establishment of the kingdom didnt fit that idea. Augustine also came from a gnostic background before he got saved, which you can clearly see in his views where everything material is always explained away as an allegory and even sex within marriage was frowned upon by him (no lie), and I suspect THIS is the reason why the LITERAL PHYSICAL millennium on earth was a problem.

Amillennialism served good purposes to the catholic church because it allows them to REIGN/RULE over people right now, since the "millennium" is present. It also explained away those verses about Israel being regathered, and that as we know fits the catholic dogma perfectly.
When the protestant reformation occured, Luther and Calvin were both HEAVILY influenced by Augustine's writings, which is why they continued in amillennialism, they also had bigger fish to fry so to speak, and neither did any considerable work on Revelation / eschatology.

I realize amillennialism has a couple of proof-texts, but the simplest way to refute this is:

Revelation 12 satan is deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now). In revelation 20 satan is bound from deceiving the nations (which amills claim is now).

^Clearly we see, nations are deceived today. So satan is not bound.I also considered amillennialism and have listened to podcasts on it, but once you see the above ^ it really should make you reconsider. HOW can satan be deceiving and not deceiving the nations at the same time? Bound and not bound?

Yea i think its a holdover from catholic church teaching.
We believers are in preparation for the Kingdom, but obviously Jesus isnt here in the flesh for all to see yet. he will be for 1000 years. When that time is up, all the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire. On the LAST day. It will probably take 1000 years for the wicked to die out. Bible clearly says lAST day and I dont think it means just the last day of every indivduals lives...that judgement is the last day on the old earth.

The catholic church dont want to say Jesus Christ came in the flesh and is coming in the flesh. Book of acts say he will come down the same way he went upor ascended. He was bodily resurrected. In the meantime he is with believers in spirit...that is the gift we receive till we see him face to face.

 

[Lanolin]

Brother, bema was translated "judgment seat" because government officials sat there when determining where people would go (Jn.19:13).

They are not at the same time, they are separated by 1000 years. According to revelation. The saints resurrection is first. The wickeds is last. We are going to reign with Him. We are not reigning right now because Jesus is not here to reign on earth hes in Heaven interceding for us.

How do I know because SATAN deccieved me and everyone else before being born again so he isnt permanently bound, if you ever had demons cast out then you know hes still active on earth.

This is not allegory this is REAL.

So sorry journeyman I know that what you trying to say but its not going to convince many people. All,the saints from ages past are going to rise first..the dead in Christ will rise first and those who remain will go and meet them...and so we will all be together. Its going to be a great party when Jesus returns for us. His bride. Am looking forward to it!! It may not be in my lifetime, I may die before he does but it wont matter because I will wake up when Hes here.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No, without believing in God, there's no option for repentance.

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41

Jesus came to us so we would have faith in God,

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1Pet.1:21


No, he came as a witness that sinners hate God and proved it by what sinners did to him,

The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Jn.7:7

He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23

Yes, he did, sinless, to rise from the dead, so that our faith would be in God. Putting an innocent man to death is not a righteous requirement of the law. Its an abomination to God.

No, almost all things. And shedding of blood shows a life completely devoted to God,

You have not yet resisted to the point of bloodshed in your struggle against sin. Heb.12:4

No it isn't the truth. I was indoctrinated with the same heresy.

[/QUOTE]

We are saved by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us by the shedding of His blood.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins. Jesus is the One who purchased mankind for God by the shedding of His blood.

 

[Journeyman]

We are saved by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us by the shedding of His blood.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins. Jesus is the One who purchased mankind for God by the shedding of His blood.

I kept repeating what was drilled into me too when a brother showed me the truth. I ignored everything he showed me for a long time.

The truth is, Jesus shedding his blood means he was totally devoted to his Father. Its because of his love for God that we are saved, not because God needed his Son to be tortured.

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

Jesus said,

If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. Jn.15:24

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not Mt.11:20

This is the true gospel. You know brother, we think just because something has been accepted as truth for a long time that it must be true, but look at the Israelites. It didn't take long for them to stray from truth.

 

[Lanolin]

Nobody said God needed his son to be tortured!
Where do you even get those strange ideas from...??? Why are you raising strawmen..?

JEsus gave his life for us..and scripture says life is in the blood. It is Jesus blood on the mercy seat, not the blood of goats and bulls. It was a one time sacrifice for all and Jesus obtained it for us. Thank you Lord.

This is why we have the Lords supper. This is why demons flee at the blood of Jesus. This is why we proclaim Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Anyone who does not believe that is anti-christ...gnostics included.

 

[Journeyman]

Nobody said God needed his son to be tortured!
Where do you even get those strange ideas from...???

Oh for God's sake sister, I didn't come up with this idea. Go ask any pastor if he believes in "substitutionary atonement" and he will tell you that he does. Then ask him what substitutionary atonement is.

 

[Hevosmies]

Oh for God's sake sister, I didn't come up with this idea. Go ask any pastor if he believes in "substitutionary atonement" and he will tell you that he does. Then ask him what substitutionary atonement is.

Are you catholic or orthodox?

Since all protestant believe in substitutionary atonement?

 

[Journeyman]

Are you catholic or orthodox?

Since all protestant believe in substitutionary atonement?

I don't identify with denominations. As a young child, I went to the Catholic church, but don't recall hearing anything about Jesus. All I remember is getting smacked around and being told I was going to hell.
I don't know what orthodox is. I went to a Baptist church for some years and accepted their beliefs. I don't go to any church now, because the ones I've visited all teach penal substitution.

 

[Diakonos]

Brother, bema was translated "judgment seat" because government officials sat there when determining where people would go (Jn.19:13).

If not at the bema seat judgment,
When and where and how do you think the 5 crowns are awarded?

 

[Journeyman]

If not at the bema seat judgment,
When and where and how do you think the 5 crowns are awarded?

We will be rewarded at Christ's judgment seat. Everyone will. Its s public show of the work Jesus did in us by believing, trusting in him in this life. And unbelievers will also be rewarded at that time.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory....Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, come ye blessed of my Father....Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me ye cursed Mt.25:31,34,

The universe belongs to the Father and son now. It always has. We just didn't always realize it. Everyone will realize it then.