The Lake of Fire

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RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Whoa! Someone's ego is showing. :D
Yeah, that's pretty bold, especially when there are plenty with more years of study et al who believe differently. I've got 55 years in. Guess that makes my word law over his ;)
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
So here's a question... the Bible says on the New Earth we won't remember anything from this one. Ok, so if God's Throne is upon the New Earth, and the smoke ascends before the throne, will we not see that smoke as well and wonder what it's from?
You are confusing the resurrection of flesh and blood humans in the second resurrection:

Isa. 65:17-20 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Can't you see that people are still dying, so this has nothing to do with the resurrected saints. In fact, it tells us we will know all things in glory.

1 Cor. 13:12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." :cool:
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Ok just to set the time frame, we're talking new earth, New Jerusalem upon the New Earth, God's Throne now residing upon earth in New Jerusalem. This is after the tribulation and rapture and millennium, and after the decreation of this world and creation of the new. There are nations of the saved upon the New Earth.

This is also after all those gifts we argue about are fully restored - what we know now in part, we will know then in full, right?

Ok so the smoke from the lake of fire rises up before the throne of God, on the new earth, before the nations of the saved. Will the nations of the saved not also see it, and having full knowledge restored, know what it is from?
I understood what you meant the first time bro.....that does not change the verbiage of my first post which you are addressing, nor does it change the fact that we WILL SEE things as GOD sees things....

Now a question.......do you believe that the SMOKE of their torment can ascend before the throne forever without us even being aware of IT?

How about our prayers which are STORED in VIOLS in heaven before the throne.....?

How about what we see right now? ALL around us is the spiritual world, angelic beings, demons, Satan walking about seeking whom he may devour...can you see it? NO....BUT it is there...........yes!

Just because a verse states that SOMETHING is happening or going to happen...it does not mean that we will be able to see it or even be aware of it........and at the same time that does NOT MEAN it is not real and or not happening.......
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,300
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I once thought of the lake of fire only as a place, but I'm not sure that's right. I think its possible the lake of fire is an event, judgment day, where the fire present is the very presence of God himself.
This is another heretical idea that is making the rounds. It seems that the cults specialize in concocting fantasies about the afterlife, since they are already committed to other false doctrines. Not to suggest that you are in a cult, but you are definitely being influenced by them.

But it is absurd to make Judgment Day the Lake of Fire since there is absolutely no way that these two things can be confused with each other. And here is the proof:

REVELATION 20

THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

THE RESURRECTION UNTO DAMNATION
12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...

JUDGMENT DAY
...and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

THE DEAD GATHERED FROM THE SEA, THE LAND, AND HADES
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
[HADES] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

DEATH AND HADES ABOLISHED (METAPHORICALLY CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE)
14 And death and hell [HADES] were cast into the lake of fire...

THE SECOND DEATH: ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD
...This is the second death.

THE LAKE OF FIRE IS NOT GOD SINCE THE DAMNED ARE CAST INTO IT
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
I understood what you meant the first time bro.....that does not change the verbiage of my first post which you are addressing, nor does it change the fact that we WILL SEE things as GOD sees things....

Now a question.......do you believe that the SMOKE of their torment can ascend before the throne forever without us even being aware of IT?

How about our prayers which are STORED in VIOLS in heaven before the throne.....?

How about what we see right now? ALL around us is the spiritual world, angelic beings, demons, Satan walking about seeking whom he may devour...can you see it? NO....BUT it is there...........yes!

Just because a verse states that SOMETHING is happening or going to happen...it does not mean that we will be able to see it or even be aware of it........and at the same time that does NOT MEAN it is not real and or not happening.......
That was the question, is it possible for us to be unaware of things, despite the promise of fully restored knowledge. More of a brain teaser than something we can actually answer.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
Here's another one...

Do more people go to "heaven", or do more people go to "hell"
 
Dec 12, 2013
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That was the question, is it possible for us to be unaware of things, despite the promise of fully restored knowledge. More of a brain teaser than something we can actually answer.
Obviously there can be things happening that we are unaware of............like my cited examples.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Here's another one...

Do more people go to "heaven", or do more people go to "hell"
I believe we know this........based upon the words few there be that find it and MANY goes in there at............Straight and narrow vs broad and wide......
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,533
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For the sake of gaining some common ground, What do you know about the Rapture of the Church?
It sounds to me like the "rapture" is the bodily resurrection from the dead, the 2nd resurrection.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
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I don't normally enjoy doom, but death is destroyed in the lake of fire and a world with no more death is a good thing.

I once thought of the lake of fire only as a place, but I'm not sure that's right. I think its possible the lake of fire is an event, judgment day, where the fire present is the very presence of God himself.

What started me thinking of this was Paul's description of Jesus destroying antichrist,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2Thes.2:8

But then I remembered how Rev.19:20 says the antichrist is "thrown into" the lake of fire. To me, these two descriptions are synonymous.

There are other scriptures which say in effect that God is surrounded by a storm of fire that burns up his enemies and Jesus comes in a fire that sounds like its all consuming. Like all purifying maybe.
You are correct in putting different scriptures on the outcome of the Antichrist together. We cannot cherry pick one scripture and deny another.
In addition to the scriptures you mention there is also the final outcome where everyone who is not with God, will be in the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 22:15 describing they without must also be by synonomous with the outer darkness and lake of fire.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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You are correct in putting different scriptures on the outcome of the Antichrist together. We cannot cherry pick one scripture and deny another.
In addition to the scriptures you mention there is also the final outcome where everyone who is not with God, will be in the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 22:15 describing they without must also be by synonomous with the outer darkness and lake of fire.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I don't think darkness is a place. I think it's a state people are in,

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1Jn.2:9

But even until now, those in darkness may come into the light through Jesus. So "outer darkness" can mean a persons state of being unsaved is permanent and this judgment may cause tears and wailing without the tears and waIling lasting eternally.

It's interesting that passages about "outer darkness" have to do with hypocrisy. John says that without are murderers, sorcerers, etc. Doesn't that go without saying? Could it be people think they're saved, but they're not,

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1Jn.3:15

So Jesus said,

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mt.5:22

I mention these things because the passage you fired says,

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev.22:11

In other words, how we are now, is how we will be seen later and Jesus tries not only people's works, but people themselves.
 

LonelyMoon

New member
Jan 31, 2019
1
0
1
Well I feel like I’m living in hell without the flames sometimes. I feel scared and hurt every moment. I have been ostracized by society and labeled a reprobate when I tried to turn to the local church. I have two children that are being affected by all this. Not being able to protect your children is sheer horror. But on top of all that God has opened my eyes and has shown me that I was a false Christian and this is my reaping what I did and did not sow. Anywhere without our Lord is hell.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,533
623
113
This is another heretical idea that is making the rounds. It seems that the cults specialize in concocting fantasies about the afterlife, since they are already committed to other false doctrines. Not to suggest that you are in a cult, but you are definitely being influenced by them.

But it is absurd to make Judgment Day the Lake of Fire since there is absolutely no way that these two things can be confused with each other. And here is the proof:

REVELATION 20

THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

THE RESURRECTION UNTO DAMNATION
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...

JUDGMENT DAY
...and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

THE DEAD GATHERED FROM THE SEA, THE LAND, AND HADES
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [HADES] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

DEATH AND HADES ABOLISHED (METAPHORICALLY CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE)
14 And death and hell [HADES] were cast into the lake of fire...

THE SECOND DEATH: ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD
...This is the second death.

THE LAKE OF FIRE IS NOT GOD SINCE THE DAMNED ARE CAST INTO IT
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I'm not being influenced by cultists, because I don't read commentaries.
I didn't say the lake of fire is judgment day. I meant the lake of fire is the effect Gods presence has on the unsaved on judgment day. Both believers and unbelievers will face Jesus,

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE.1Cor.3:13-15

It's not only works that are tried by fire, but people themselves. The great white throne judgment as it is called and the judgement seat of Christ are synonymous,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jn.5:22
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
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I'm not being influenced by cultists, because I don't read commentaries.
I didn't say the lake of fire is judgment day. I meant the lake of fire is the effect Gods presence has on the unsaved on judgment day. Both believers and unbelievers will face Jesus,

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE.1Cor.3:13-15

It's not only works that are tried by fire, but people themselves. The great white throne judgment as it is called and the judgement seat of Christ are synonymous,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jn.5:22
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 is a description of the Bema seat judgment.
If you haven't yet, go study what the "Bema seat of Christ" is.
There is a judgment for the righteous and a judgment for the wicked.

The judgment for the righteous=The bema seat judgment (the judgment seat of Christ...where crowns are awarded for the fruit they bore on earth. 1 Corinthians 9:24-25, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, James 1:12, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:1-4 ,
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body,according to what he has done, whether good or bad. -2 Corinthians 5:10


The judgment for the wicked=The great white throne judgment-Revelation 20:11-14

The saints are already with Christ at the moment of His return (Revelation 19), they have already been judged...The great white thone judgment is after the return of Jesus. Separate Judgments.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,300
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It's not only works that are tried by fire, but people themselves. The great white throne judgment as it is called and the judgement seat of Christ are synonymous...
You need to go back to square one, since you are equating the judgment of the Church with the judgment of the unsaved. Two totally separate and UNRELATED judgments.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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Well I feel like I’m living in hell without the flames sometimes. I feel scared and hurt every moment. I have been ostracized by society and labeled a reprobate when I tried to turn to the local church. I have two children that are being affected by all this. Not being able to protect your children is sheer horror. But on top of all that God has opened my eyes and has shown me that I was a false Christian and this is my reaping what I did and did not sow. Anywhere without our Lord is hell.
It's a good thing to examine ourselves.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 2Cor.13:5

And if we do this my friend and find that we truly are walking with the Lord, then we should be happy when people cast us out. The religious establishment wanted nothing to do with Jesus.

Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Lk.6:22-23

Let's examine ourselves, not others. :)
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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I'm not being influenced by cultists, because I don't read commentaries.
I didn't say the lake of fire is judgment day. I meant the lake of fire is the effect Gods presence has on the unsaved on judgment day. Both believers and unbelievers will face Jesus,

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; YET SO AS BY FIRE.1Cor.3:13-15

It's not only works that are tried by fire, but people themselves. The great white throne judgment as it is called and the judgement seat of Christ are synonymous,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jn.5:22
As others have stated, there are two seperate judgements. The saved are not judged, but their works are. For the unsaved they will not fare so well.
Two seperate judgements;
1)Bema seat (saved)
2)Great White Throne (unsaved)
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
757
393
63
Well I feel like I’m living in hell without the flames sometimes. I feel scared and hurt every moment. I have been ostracized by society and labeled a reprobate when I tried to turn to the local church. I have two children that are being affected by all this. Not being able to protect your children is sheer horror. But on top of all that God has opened my eyes and has shown me that I was a false Christian and this is my reaping what I did and did not sow. Anywhere without our Lord is hell.
Many times the Lord has used suffering in my life to get my attention. When we confess our failures and repent, we are forgiven. Come close to God and seek His love and wisdom and His peace will still your fears.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,533
623
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1 Corinthians 3:13-15 is a description of the Bema seat judgment.
If you haven't yet, go study what the "Bema seat of Christ" is.
There is a judgment for the righteous and a judgment for the wicked.

The judgment for the righteous=The bema seat judgment (the judgment seat of Christ...where crowns are awarded for the fruit they bore on earth. 1 Corinthians 9:24-25, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, James 1:12, 2 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:1-4 ,
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body,according to what he has done, whether good or bad. -2 Corinthians 5:10


The judgment for the wicked=The great white throne judgment-Revelation 20:11-14

The saints are already with Christ at the moment of His return (Revelation 19), they have already been judged...The great white thone judgment is after the return of Jesus. Separate Judgments.
Diakonos, I have heard what you're saying in many different churches. I have seriously prayed and examined this doctrine. I disagree with it my friend and here's why,

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jn.17:16
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son Col.1:13
he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Heb.13:5
And remember, I am with you always Mt.28:20

I realize letting Jesus in person comes later, but we are separated from unbelievers because Christ is in us now. We are in the world but not of it. His judgment later shows, proves, manifests what was true now.

Examine the "great white throne" judgment next to the "judgment seat of Christ" and without adding anything to the text, is anything different? I don't mean is anything missing. Don't read anything into the text. Is any one element different from the other?