The Law Debacle Resolved

[atwhatcost]

I think part of the problem is not listening to each other. For example I say that those who are saved will keep the law all 10.

But people jump to conclusions on how and why. They say you believe in salvation by your works. But they are wrong I believe in salvation through Jesus works for and in us.

You show me a person who says I am crucified with Christ and He lives in me, yet does things that Jesus would not and all you have showed me is either a deceived person or a liar.

I disagree. I'm in this state to this day:
Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

 

[atwhatcost]

Why does the law lead us to Christ?

Because it shows us our need of saving. saving from what?

Saving from sin which is breaking the law. who saves us?

Jesus saves us. saves us from what?

Sin which is breaking the law.

You can not be saved from sin if you are still living in sin.

I disagree with this too. If Jesus saves us from sin, then why do we still sin? Kind of like giving us a sieve for a lifesaver.

God saves us from the penalty of sin -- separation from God, death and hell. He saves us for him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The point tho is that the religious leaders made a strong enough case that he did. Pilate asked Jesus..."what is truth". It's always ironic when the people doing the judging are in actuality the ones who are being judged. Cain judged Abel....etc..etc..etc.

Thats the problem with legalism..

The pharisee thought he was righteous, when he was not..

You judge people you deem less righteous than you are so you can feel good about yourself.

Oh, And the pharisee charged Jesus with breaking their laws.. They could not charge him with breaking the law of moses.. No one could. even the judge said he could find no fault in Jesus

 

[atwhatcost]

I accepted Christ 26 years ago. I rest in his grace and I focus on the Holy Spirit in my life.
I am honest enough to admit that I still have trouble with the flesh. I can't agree more with Paul here. I can't "do all of what Jesus did and teaches."
I am not seeking any man's approval or opinion here. It is just where I am and I strive to grow from it every day and moment.

Kefa

Romans 7-14-24

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin's power. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. a For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it. 19 For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me. 21 So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me. 22 For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God's law. 23 But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body? e 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our

Holman Bible

Kefa,
I replied to what you posted before. Unfortunately, you left, so didn't see them. Would you mind skootching back to see what I said? I'm not disagreeing with you or picking a fight. I strongly believe we agree and are saying the same thing, except you didn't take it far enough to see we're agreeing.

My post to you are on page 6 #113 and then #119.

I really would like to know if we're agreeing.

 

[prove-all]

21But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned
among the heathen, whither they went.Therefore say unto the house of Israel,

Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but
for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that
I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,
and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will
take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and [cause you to walk] in [my statutes],
and ye[ shall] keep [my judgments], and do them.

28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God. 29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:
and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye
shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good,
and [shall lothe yourselves] in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.



38As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts;
so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the Lord.


Resolved

 

[atwhatcost]

Argue? No. I feel, as I do frequently when I read your posts, the need to correct tho.
Debacle? Seriously?
The only people that have a problem with law are the ones that don't have God's spirit guiding them into truth and those that refuse to study his word the way HE instructs us.
You know, those like you that think the law applies to the gentile somehow.

So that stuff you're "studying" in the OT is crap because you're a Gentile? Interesting. Most of God's word doesn't apply to you because of the get-out-of-jail-free card called "Gentile."

Amazing the stuff people will argue for. Funnier, since you just debacled, (under any of those definitions you proved.)

Thanks for the laugh. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

for as many as are under the works of the law are under a curse...........Galatians 3:10


I thank God for his Grace and can rest in HIS finished work. He's done it all.

So you have no need to do anything?

 

[atwhatcost]

I said "at", not "after" the Judgment; that's what those who reject Christ Jesus will be judged by. God's laws are eternal. They won't go away after the Judgment either.

Ahhhh, one little word misread.

Boy, some days! Yeesh! I can't even get myself. lol Sorry 'bout that. NOW it makes sense. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

I leave for a ery short time for my local responsibilities, and I come back to another uproar about the law.

If possible, let us think in terms of those first qho believed Jesus Christ, men wondered at, the Twelve Aposstles, and if you like, Paul.

Look at how they worshipped our Lord, Jesus. They heard Him, and followed after Him, picking up their crosses and imitated our Lord. So did most of the assemblies.

How mankind has drifted away from these examples of following our Example, Jesus Christ.

I cannot imagine most congregations today transported to the time of our Lord on earth.. They do not even begin to resemble the Body of Christ at that time.

The Twelve were learned of Jesus Christ, men of Israel, descended of Abraham. They would not dream of disobedience for any reasonn unto their own deaths. (John apparantly died of natural causes.)

We have segments of what is called Christians today more concerned with war and politics than what we do not see, things eternal which our faith makes us to treasure. There are segments preaching the love of wealth with the gospel of wealth. There are segments eaching disobedience. And there is a segment labeling good brethren in Christ who choose to be children of obedience as under the law, and even having rejected the saving Blood of Jesus Christ. Praye especially for thse latter, for they walk in darkness, calling it light, condemning those who follow the Lamb of God.

Blessed be all who see, hear and understand, for they cherish the eternal, amen. Try to remain on topic and get out of this law/grace chaos you are creating. Grace and obedience are married by faith, established by faith.

Of the list you gave for those who have the appearance of ethnic christianity but not necessarily the spirit, I don't think just the latter needs special prayers. (aka, just because one group annoys us more, doesn't mean they're better or worse than any others. lol)

But getting back on topic:
Rom. 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This is the purpose of the law, to show us where our flesh needs to be put to death.

 

[ember]

I'm happy that you got an eye-roll out of it. It was a legitimate question. But I guess that you and Ember are the only ones allowed to ask questions. Maybe if I ask in a similar tone as you and Ember, (harassing and sarcastic,) then maybe you'll answer....I don't know...

no...please ask all the questions you would like instead of making barbed comments at believers who are answering questions

it is actually reverse...we answer questions...all kinds of questions...we are actually better than WIKI!

it's you fellahs here that don't answer questions...perhaps you don't see them looking down your long noses...they might be too far away

(barbed humor...that's my limit in this thread)

 

[Least]

Grace, Law? What about it? How do we resolve it.

KennethC gave me and all a reminder in Just-Me's wonderful thread on PHARISEES.

Here is the solution.

Do what Jesus teaches and did.

If you feel a need to argue this, you need His help right away.

Thank you Just-Me and KennethC..........

Really a great topic Jaumej,

I wanted to add some verses and perhaps get back to the original topic.


Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

 

[prove-all]

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let,
until he be taken out of the way.


​

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


sorry for some off topic verses​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Really a great topic Jaumej,

I wanted to add some verses and perhaps get back to the original topic.


Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1 Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Thats great, But none of those passages say to follow law. or go to law.

They say Follow Jesus.

If we do as jesus did, we will be seen as not breaking the law. We do not need the law to do this. Just learn to carry our cross (sacrifice our own flesh) love others.

Jesus taught a sacrificial love, not a pseudo love (the type of love the world has)

 

[atwhatcost]

I believe the Word, from Genesis through the amen finalizing Revelation.

All truth is from God. The actual reality for a believer, that is eternal truth, consists of thigs not seen, as is written.

If you believe some truth is NOT in the Word, it is only because you believe facts ae equated with eternal truth. this is a very sad state for any soul.

The following are facts:
The big ban or boom theory, also known as the expanding universe theory.

The dynamic encounter theory on how the planets were formed.

The theory of coelescing gases forming the planets.

Continental drift.

Plate tectonics.

The geoogical time scale or the geological column.

Vertical intruduction of new viruses.

Eugeosyncline development of mountains ,volcanic activity and other orogenic events

Evolution of the speicies.

etc.

When this age which is allied to decay passes, we will be in eternity where all is allied to life.

All those facts that man calls truth in this age will burn in the fire next time..


If you wish to put someone on trial, become a judge of men.
All of this thought, belief and understanding may be found in the Word of God. God is Truth.

But then there are these truths that aren't in the Bible:
-- 1 + 1 = 2
-- The colder the region, the bigger the deer.
-- If you are born in America, you are an American.
-- The Phillies and Sixers had a terrible season last season.
-- The earth orbits the sun.

Are these not truth too?

The Bible is a book that tells the truth about God. It doesn't tell all truth, because some truth isn't all that important in the Truth of God. The Bible contains the important truths about God.

 

[atwhatcost]

You'd make a good politician. I'm not putting you on trial here. I just asked a question that I still didn't get an answer to. Lol

You got an answer. Maybe you didn't like my answer, but I gave you an answer.

 

[atwhatcost]

Finally, someone who understands!!!

Just like Apostle Paul said in 1 Tim.1, the law was not made for the righteous man, but for "the lawless and disobedient."

If you believe that, then you don't believe Romans 7 and 8?

 

[atwhatcost]

True...but not pirate booty maps hidden in scripture. lol

Are you so sure? What DID happen to THE ark? It's made out of gold. It's THE ark. I wouldn't mind being the Indiana Jones to find it. (I wouldn't touch it, but I wouldn't mind finding it either.)

 

[atwhatcost]

So I have a question? According to "the law"...did Jesus commit blasphemy?

Why are you doing this? Your questions seem so random and you're not really joining in on the topic, so I'm really asking.

 

[Kefa54]

I would have been a gentile. I would not have known the law. I would have been despised by the Jews. My conversion started with the Holly Spirit not the law. I will look at the law and read some of it but that is all. The purpose of the law in the new covenant it for education and history. Any one can follow some law. I know some good people that are as lost as can be. They won't steal,covet,kill etc.

Gentiles
All the people who were not Jews were so called by them, being aliens from the worship, rites and privileges of Israel. The word was used contemptuously by them. In the New Testament it is used as equivalent to Greek. Gentiles were despised by Jews and had no connection what so ever to the Jewish worship or the law.
Matthew 28:18-20):
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Acts 10 :44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came down on all those who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speaking in other •languages and declaring the greatness of God.

SO...Are you telling me I have to go back and study the LAW to truly be saved.


Kefa

 

[atwhatcost]

I would have been a gentile. I would not have known the law. I would have been despised by the Jews. My conversion started with the Holly Spirit not the law. I will look at the law and read some of it but that is all. The purpose of the law in the new covenant it for education and history. Any one can follow some law. I know some good people that are as lost as can be. They won't steal,covet,kill etc.

Gentiles
All the people who were not Jews were so called by them, being aliens from the worship, rites and privileges of Israel. The word was used contemptuously by them. In the New Testament it is used as equivalent to Greek. Gentiles were despised by Jews and had no connection what so ever to the Jewish worship or the law.
Matthew 28:18-20):
And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Acts 10 :44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came down on all those who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speaking in other •languages and declaring the greatness of God.

SO...Are you telling me I have to go back and study the LAW to truly be saved.


Kefa

Are you telling me the law has no importance because you're Gentile?