The Law Debacle Resolved

[JaumeJ]

I believe all who have been received by Jesus Christ are very well aware by the Holy Spirit that they are regarded as righteous before God and the law. God no longer imputes against us the guilt of our iniquity. This is just the beginning of how to understand the mystery of the law and how it is in effect to this day.

I believe all are aware we are to confess our sins one to another. Are these actions necessary if the law is no longer of any value? When we confess our sins, we confess breaking the law, though we keep the law in the spirit in our hearts.

No child of obedience will ever teach against the law. Yes, when we know we believe we are counted righteous, and repeating tht we know we are is not a sin, it is faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

What is sin? An action that God defines as wrong.
You can try to get general ideas but it does come back to the creator.

But sin is part of the picture, it is the thoughts and handling within a person that leads to the acts and sin, which can be changed. We often impute the thoughts etc as sin itself, when they are not, and so set a higher standard of righteousness than God demands or indicates.

Our thoughts and tendencies indicate issues and problems, but they do not cause us to be condemned. It is our lack of communion with God and walking in love that causes us to have the thoughts, to dwell on the wrong things and finally to sin. So the core problem is our relationships and focus, which we can work on, which if continued in walking in the Spirit, shows itself by righteousness as its fruit with good works.

Now this is the core message of the gospel. Get the heart right and things of the Kingdom will flow.
I suspect this model is not accepted, so the idea of righteousness is rejected, just a hoped for dream for sinners who must use other means, hope in faith for it to work out by doing things by rote or just anything that might seem to work.
Some now think it is mystical changed hearts through open heaven portals, call out and you are zapped.
I thought this was a joke until I heard a "prophet" describing it and calling their audience to pray for its reality.

 

[KJV1611]

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:18


The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5


Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.
John 14:21

A positive approach to righteous living is putting love into action. If sin comes in, you repent and walk on.
The power of righteousness is love and the commands of Jesus.

Think on this idea. When is a person righteous? The normal definition is doing the right thing until they do the one thing that means they have failed. But being righteous in Gods sense is walking in love, and if you stumble, you sort it out and walk on. It is not saying stumbles will not happen but that is not your heart. It is the changed heart that changes who you are and the Kingdom you belong to.

The problem is often our hearts dwell on unwholesome ideas and motivations, but love works these things out and changes us.

Does this help?

It helps me understand your position, but I don't agree with your position. Righteousness is not love. A person is righteous when that person puts on the righteousness of Christ. The righteousness he puts on is not his own, it's Christs. This means that my righteousness has nothing to do with my actions, if I sin I'm still righteous because my righteousness comes from Christ.

 

[just-me]

It helps me understand your position, but I don't agree with your position. Righteousness is not love. A person is righteous when that person puts on the righteousness of Christ. The righteousness he puts on is not his own, it's Christs. This means that my righteousness has nothing to do with my actions, if I sin I'm still righteous because my righteousness comes from Christ.

God is righteous and "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." 1 John 4:8

That may be where Peterjens is coming from.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1 John 2:5

Righteousness and love work together as do the Spirit and the Word.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

 

[Kefa54]

Here is an article that pretty much sums up my beliefs. I am not asking anyone to agree, or disagree. It just explains my beliefs.

https://www.gci.org/law/rolelaw


Kefa

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think what I just don't get is. Why turn back to the law when we have the Spirit of Christ living in us?
The Holly spirit convicts me, teaches me, and gives me the strength to do what he wants.
The Holly Spirit has shown me my gifts and given me the strength and wisdom to do them..... Gifts that I never would have stepped out and done on my own in the law..

The law can't do that.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts and write them on their minds,

Agreed. Only the spirit can. The law requires that we have faith and do love. When we walk in faith we walk in the spirit that is the love that the law requires.

 

[atwhatcost]

Not what you testified earlier saying you are still a slave to the law of sin and headed to death.

Just to remind you that you did say that:

I disagree. I'm in this state to this day:
Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?

Yeah, just missed verse 22 all together to prove-a-point, huh? I know you're feeling so proud of yourself right now. I hope you get over that.

 

[atwhatcost]

I found #113. It pretty much proves my point. I didn't go there because I was trying to figure out the self righteous follow the law teachings here.

I have been to synagogue many times. This whole thread sounds just like Torah study.
At one time I studied Jewish Roots in Christianity.

Kefa

Kefa

Ah, so you went with "sounds like" instead of actually figuring it out. Sorry. Thought you were willing to go past mere appearances to get to the heart of something. Never mind.

 

[atwhatcost]

I lost interest in JaumeJ posts after he got snotty with Ember. Snotty is not a fruit of the Spirit. It kind of kills one witness for me.

Kefa

So you got snotty in return, instead of finding out what's going on? Thank you. At least I learned where you gave up thinking for yourself.

 

[atwhatcost]

I think what I just don't get is. Why turn back to the law when we have the Spirit of Christ living in us?
The Holly spirit convicts me, teaches me, and gives me the strength to do what he wants.
The Holly Spirit has shown me my gifts and given me the strength and wisdom to do them..... Gifts that I never would have stepped out and done on my own in the law..

The law can't do that.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts and write them on their minds,

If you don't get it, then why was your first post on this thread exactly that? You posted the end of Romans 7. That IS why! (And Romans 8 is the solution.)

 

[JaumeJ]

Had you been living at the time of the Apostles and Paul, you would have been at a complete loss since they taught from the Torah, the Writings and the Prophets.

Now how do you suppose the followers of Messiah managed without the New Testament?

You believe the entire thread sounds like being in Temple? You have not seen the continuous quotes from the New Testament? Or is it that you are looking for Jews under the bed? Open your heart and mind to what Jesus Christ teaches us about the faith of Abraham..........

I found #113. It pretty much proves my point. I didn't go there because I was trying to figure out the self righteous follow the law teachings here.

I have been to synagogue many times. This whole thread sounds just like Torah study.
At one time I studied Jewish Roots in Christianity.

Kefa

Kefa

 

[Kefa54]

Not going to play this game either.

Yeah, just missed verse 22 all together to prove-a-point, huh? I know you're feeling so proud of yourself right now. I hope you get over that.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now how do you suppose the followers of Messiah managed without the New Testament?

They had the oral doctrine of the apostles, which later was written down and became the NT.

So, no, they were not without the NT.

 

[Least]

They had the oral doctrine of the apostles, which later was written down and became the NT.

So, no, they were not without the NT.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The NIV says it this way:

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


Paul and the apostles taught directly from the OT, the doctrine that we now have is not a different doctrine. It all goes together. We can't have one without the other. Foundation always comes before the building.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The NIV says it this way:

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


Paul and the apostles taught directly from the OT, the doctrine that we now have is not a different doctrine. It all goes together. We can't have one without the other. Foundation always comes before the building.

I never said they didn't teach from the OT. I just said they weren't without the NT.

btw the OT is not the foundation. This apparently is where so many people go wrong. The OT points to the foundation, Christ. It came before him, but it is after him because he preexisted it. The church is built on the foundation of the apostles.

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, Ephesians 2:19-21​

 

[crossnote]

The point is we have the writings of the Apostles now, so imagining one back at 33AD is silly.

 

[just-me]

During the day of Christ on earth the name of God was clearly revealed in His word. That is what we know as the OT today. The law therefore reveals God's true nature, i.e. His name, His personage. If we purposefully turn a blind eye to these scriptures that the apostles used to teach from, in connection with their letters of the NT, then we are turning a blind eye to God Himself. Doing this is clearly a vain exercise by using the grace of God against His own character revealed to us, and saying it is God's salvation.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Exodus 20:7

 

[just-us-2]

There would be much more agreement and polite discussion if people would refrain from accusing others of being "wrong" when they don't know what they are talking about. In order for someone to legitmately find fault with another's beliefs, thinking, train of thought, etc. they have to know what the facts are. The declarations that "the law is..." are so foolish because they expose the writer's ineptness at rightly discerning the Word of God. If one is going to belittle someone else for trying to share the truth of ALL of God's Word, the only thing that would be a legitimate point for discussion is something that is factual.
Think of it like a court case - only FACTS are considered.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The NIV says it this way:

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


Paul and the apostles taught directly from the OT, the doctrine that we now have is not a different doctrine. It all goes together. We can't have one without the other. Foundation always comes before the building.

Paul did not teach from the scripture. He used scripture to prove Christ was the messiah promised by the law and the prophets.

Paul did not go around telling gentiles to observe and obey the law. He spent most of his writings teaching against this, since he had to fight with people like just-me trying to say, yes, we can be saved by grace, but we have to now live by the law.

In fact the NT goes as far to say, if you going to obey one aspect of the law. your indebted to follow the whole law (not some watered down version)

 

[Biblelogic01]

Yes, but what law? GOD's laws have changed with the times. A man can break the law of Moses and not be lawless (e.g., physical circumcision).

The one law that has remained constant from Adam to now is to have faith in GOD and love one's neighbor, otherwise know as the law of Christ. That is the immutable law. To break that law is lawlessness.

The God of the bible is never changing.
It's stated that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
So that concluision would be invalid, unles you're saying that God is a changing God.
Which if He is, that is actually a very very scary thing.