The Law Debacle Resolved

[crossnote]

Sorry bro, just funning with you. You haven't seen the common sense, you've outright poo-poo'ed rational argument; sarcasm and ridicule are all I have left lol

Honestly for 99% of us here at CC it's a moot subject anyway, thank God.

probably because I hold Scripture above 'common sense' and 'rationalism'...you should try it sometime yourself.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

None. Works do not assure eternal life.
Works are EVIDENCE of eternal life.
No evidence, no life.
May your eyes be opened to the difference

James described works that demonstrate a true faith as feeding and sheltering a needy brother. Some here define those works as keeping the 10 commandments. What do you say?

 

[Grandpa]

I have heard both sides in this thread, & I can say that there may not necessarily be a "right" side in it.

Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I suppose the question is which side has the most fruit?..... or any fruit? I wonder if that will be the next subject that will be debated on?

The scripture above is the spiritual statement.....and now one from the world that compliments it..... "It takes two to tango".

If both sides enjoy the debating for their "sides", then there's no "right" side. You see, it's not just about right doctrine..... it's about right attitudes, too.

If you want to look at 'sides' there is only one side that can produce fruit. True fruit. And its not by works its by Grace through Faith.

Galatians 3:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


How much fruit is grown by working at the law?


Galatians 3:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


I suppose if you know there is a spiritual statement and a worldly statement you already know all this...

 

[ember]

No, I think others are saying just do nothing since you are saved. I'm sorry my analogies were terrible and seemed to say Salvation is earned. I know the Body of Christ is likened to a human body. Many parts, many functions, yet one body. I suppose the function of the part is the work it does.

Does this make sense?

If that part doesn't function ( work) the body is weakened

No one has said: just do nothing since you are saved


That, is a fabrication...there is no truth to that statement. I am asking, again, that you provide the post, post number and link, where someone has stated that you do nothing when you are saved.

Salvation is not earned and God has created us to do good works...HIS works...which may or may not include a physical response ... perhaps some will just pray for others...perhaps some will simply worship Him in spirit and in truth...perhaps some will go about their business doing all kinds of things God lays on their heart to do

How do you know?

This should really stop. Those who are saved, are truly saved and we appear before God with the righteousness of our Savior, God's only begotten Son

I have a clear conscience before God and I answer to Him as does everyone else. Trying to create a false witness to support a certain interpretation, is ungodly. It's not befitting any saved person...you all need to stop it now

No one has said once saved, you do nothing

No one

 

[KennethC]

What an eel. Again how much [quality, if that's your way of expressing it] good works must you do until you are assured you have eternal life?
I believe I have it right now on account of Christ and His righteousness.
Can you answer the question without a lot of slithering?

Again it has nothing to do with quantity of works done, it has to do with the quality of life one lives that proves they have eternal life abiding in them.

Just like Rickyz no evidence means no life, because we can not have the Holy Spirit in us with there being no evidence of it. The scriptures says we will be full of fruit and good works because of the Holy Spirit !!!

The point was that the Gospel was preached to Abraham which you denied.
You called it a Covenant, fine, Paul called it the Gospel. Likewise the Land Covenant was also Good News (Gospel) for Abraham. But go ahead do your mental gymnastics and worm out of it.


The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward, for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever. I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted. Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you." So Abram moved his tent and came and settled by the oaks of Mamre, which are at Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD.
(Gen 13:14-18)

Here you go and lie about me again as I never denied the gospel was told to Abraham !!!

What I denied is that you trying to say a different gospel was given to Abraham as you tried to interject the land promise given to Abraham which is not part of the gospel.

Paul did not call the land promise part of the gospel, for he said it was that all nations would be blessed which is true by the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ which is for all nations.

Please don't lie about what I said like that as only taking part of my response like you did to try and make it look that way.

Also just because gospel means good news does not mean every time good news is told to somebody does not make it a gospel. For there is only ONE gospel !!!

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth seems to differ.
Ok, how much works must be 'evidenced' before there is (eternal) life?

I don't know where you get that from because I have always said, and multiple times on here for fact, that the works are proof/evidence of one who is truly saved.

They do not save or maintain salvation as they are the proof of one who is truly saved <----I have said this multiple times !!!

 

[Utah]

If you put more money into the bank than you take out, you're ok aren't you?

You're equating saved money and good deeds to God's saving grace in Jesus Christ? If God sees our good deeds as filthy rags, then chances are He sees money as the Enemy's fecal matter.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't know where you get that from because I have always said, and multiple times on here for fact, that the works are proof/evidence of one who is truly saved.

They do not save or maintain salvation as they are the proof of one who is truly saved <----I have said this multiple times !!!

They aren't proof, otherwise you would be able to say how much 'proof' is needed to be assured of eternal life. But you can't seem to quantify it. So all you have is a passively condemning statement that you cling to.

The only proof any will have is faith.

 

[atwhatcost]

Seriously, y'all! Don't you ever get tired of arguing the same points with the same people? Are you really expecting a miracle and suddenly your opponent sees life just like you do? Or is it sheer ego?

And this isn't giving you permission to spend another 50 pages convincing me that you are justified.

 

[KennethC]

You're equating saved money and good deeds to God's saving grace in Jesus Christ? If God sees our good deeds as filthy rags, then chances are He sees money as the Enemy's fecal matter.

Seeing good deeds as filthy rags is before one is born again, and we can know this because in Hebrews quotes how God is not unjust to forget our good deeds. (Hebrews 6:10)

And it says here we should all continue in good works and love tell the full assurance of the hope to the end and not become sluggish.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Again it has nothing to do with quantity of works done, it has to do with the quality of life one lives that proves they have eternal life abiding in them.

Just like Rickyz no evidence means no life, because we can not have the Holy Spirit in us with there being no evidence of it. The scriptures says we will be full of fruit and good works because of the Holy Spirit !!!

Scripture explicitly witnesses what proves we have eternal life abiding in us.

We know that we have passed over from death into life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that every murderer does not have eternal life residing in him. We have come to know love by this: that he laid down his life on behalf of us, and we ought to lay down our lives on behalf of the brothers. But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:14-19​

 

[KennethC]

They aren't proof, otherwise you would be able to say how much 'proof' is needed to be assured of eternal life. But you can't seem to quantify it. So all you have is a passively condemning statement that you cling to.

The only proof any will have is faith.

They are proof which is why the Lord said we will know them by their fruit, as the fruit comes from the Holy Spirit that is shown through our actions.

To claim this fruit from the Holy Spirit will not be evident in believers in Christ would make Jesus out to be a liar, and no it does not have to come down to quantity because each person holds different positions in the body that each one requires different things to be done.

This is why Jesus gave the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, and the one He gave the one talent to went and buried/hid it instead of acting on it. When the Master came He cast this unprofitable servant into outer darkness, which is saying no eternal life !!!

 

[KennethC]

Scripture explicitly witnesses what proves we have eternal life abiding in us.

We know that we have passed over from death into life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that every murderer does not have eternal life residing in him. We have come to know love by this: that he laid down his life on behalf of us, and we ought to lay down our lives on behalf of the brothers. But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:14-19​

This is only part of what the Apostle John said as chapters 2-4 all speak on how one can know they have eternal life abiding in them.

This passage from 1 John 3:14-19 is not the only part John brought up for a believer to have assurance !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Seeing good deeds as filthy rags is before one is born again, and we can know this because in Hebrews quotes how God is not unjust to forget our good deeds. (Hebrews 6:10)

And it says here we should all continue in good works and love tell the full assurance of the hope to the end and not become sluggish.

What utter nonsense. Self-righteousness infects both the regenerate and the unregenerate.

 

[Grandpa]

Seriously, y'all! Don't you ever get tired of arguing the same points with the same people? Are you really expecting a miracle and suddenly your opponent sees life just like you do? Or is it sheer ego?

And this isn't giving you permission to spend another 50 pages convincing me that you are justified.

Nope. I don't really expect people to understand. And when they do it is always a very pleasant surprise.

I don't see them as opponents. I see them as people who need to be shown a bigger, more complete revelation of who Christ is and what He does.

Just like from the very beginning of Christianity. It looks like there was always contention.

What would have happened if the Apostles decided they shouldn't contend for the gospel with their 'brothers'? We would all be rejecting Grace and we would all be under the Law.

There will always be contention. It can't be helped.

I hope that one day the people that I explain Christ to will understand.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Seriously, y'all! Don't you ever get tired of arguing the same points with the same people? Are you really expecting a miracle and suddenly your opponent sees life just like you do? Or is it sheer ego?

And this isn't giving you permission to spend another 50 pages convincing me that you are justified.

It does get tiring, but there's nothing like it to really learn what one knows and to refine one's learning.

 

[KennethC]

Seriously, y'all! Don't you ever get tired of arguing the same points with the same people? Are you really expecting a miracle and suddenly your opponent sees life just like you do? Or is it sheer ego?

And this isn't giving you permission to spend another 50 pages convincing me that you are justified.

Well when it comes down to a salvation issue I will continue to repeat myself, as Jesus gave a few examples of some who thought they were saved until they stood at judgment and found out differently !!!

They thought the quality of life they lived didn't matter, but Jesus told them because they denied to help others in need or because they continued in committing iniquity (sinful actions) He has denied them !!!

 

[Grandpa]

They are proof which is why the Lord said we will know them by their fruit, as the fruit comes from the Holy Spirit that is shown through our actions.

To claim this fruit from the Holy Spirit will not be evident in believers in Christ would make Jesus out to be a liar, and no it does not have to come down to quantity because each person holds different positions in the body that each one requires different things to be done.

This is why Jesus gave the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, and the one He gave the one talent to went and buried/hid it instead of acting on it. When the Master came He cast this unprofitable servant into outer darkness, which is saying no eternal life !!!

So then why didn't you answer Crossnote? How many good works does one need for assurance of eternal life?

Again, passively condemning statements is all you have.

 

[KennethC]

What utter nonsense. Self-righteousness infects both the regenerate and the unregenerate.

It is not nonsense as there is multiple scriptures that says that we are created to do, continue doing, and even to provoke others to do good deeds.

Why do you think the bible speaks on different rewards depending on faithfulness to the Lord, and even no reward to those who were least faithful as their works will be completely burned up ???

The problem is still confusing self-righteous with doing His righteousness in our lives; There is a big difference !!!

 

[ember]

Scripture explicitly witnesses what proves we have eternal life abiding in us.

We know that we have passed over from death into life because we love the brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that every murderer does not have eternal life residing in him. We have come to know love by this: that he laid down his life on behalf of us, and we ought to lay down our lives on behalf of the brothers. But whoever has the world’s material possessions and observes his brother in need and shuts his heart against him, how does the love of God reside in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth and will convince our heart before him, 1 John 3:14-19​

What a great reminder! Thank you!