The Letter to the Romans...

[homwardbound]

Right!! If we were under the law for salvation we would be required to obey it perfectly, to be sort of Gods. We are under grace for salvation, not law. The way to use God's power to save is to repent of our sins and accept that through Christ we are completely cleansed of them. We are cleansed through grace. Then we put on Christ, and reject sin. We learn to be able to judge sin though the Holy Spirit and scripture giving the words of God explaining law.

And if this is done of the flesh then this is what it brings forth, the flesh we are born with and to be dead to is crafty in getting glory to self and others in all places of worship set up by man and claiming it is God.
God knows who each of us are and what our motives are, that is what will be judged.

So please see what this verse means:

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Can flesh act, Is this not taught from birth on to behave, and we learn to act and deceive others for rewards and get those pats on the back that make us feel good about ourselves?
Just some food for thought

 

[homwardbound]

Romans is the book that says. the only thing you can do is trust and believe in the work of the cross band if your faith is placed in what you do, then you have missed the mark. Because what I want do I do not and what I want not to do that I do. Oh wretched man that I am. Thank God for the cross.

Yes as I have experienced this too:
[h=3]Corinthians 15:54-56[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. [SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? [SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[homwardbound]

Paul followed the law, as he also said what you refer to. Being a babe in Christ, or mature in Christ. Learn all Messiah taught, for surely you know Jesus said to obey Him, not just believe. Surely you know even devils believe.

Furthermore, I want to get the truth of what Paul was saying, not endless back and forth with non scriptural "feelings" anyone might have.

I was hoping someone had something to say in line with what Paul taught, not taken out of context verses here and there.

And Paul was Saul who obeyed the Law to the point of killing us that just obeyed by Faith alone, not wanting them to be free as they were and God changed that in Saul to Paul

[h=3]Philippians 3:1-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[RedTent]

You are mistaken red tent. The law of sin and death is the power of the written law to condemn but not save. Not the law of the devil.
2 Cor. 3:clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.The Spirit, Not the Letter

4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Little children in Christ know sin is bondage.
Little children also know what is right and wrong.

The trouble starts when someone starts preaching old covenant observation of rituals and laws (old covenant) instead of the cross of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant believer.

If you would open your heart and mind to all of God!! The letters had to show the absolute importance of Christ to save, it was new in the world. It IS important. Giving ourselves over to the Holy Spirit within us IS of major importance. It is the new covenant.

It does not wipe out all old covenants, as you are reading these scriptures to say. Is God who created you a liar? Would God sign a legal document with us, saying it is binding, then say I have decided to cancel that document? Christ didn't ever say one word against His Father, Christ said they were one. He never spoke one time against His Father's teachings, Christ made a point of that every word of it was true. There isn't one scripture saying that when we were given the Holy Spirit to help us understand law it instead wiped out what was written about law, even with all the words to tell us to listen to those words through the spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

Everyone follows some law. If they say they don't, I'd like to know what country they are in.

There is a law of slavemasters. I call that kind, government.

Men must learn to want to follow God's law, without fear of a whip on their back. Follow the law because they are free, free to follow it or not. When they have learned that God's law is love and protection, from our Creator, and want to please Him, they will be free indeed. Until then, they are still slaves.

Some toss out the Sabbath. And then there are those who toss it all out. God does not change, nor does His law. Messiah obeyed God's law, and showed us how to separate it from what man had added.

God through Son Christ showed us before he went to the cross for us our inability to be perfect and our need for Christ as our savior, way truth and new life in the Spirit of God the Father to lead us and not be under a yoke of bondage anymore
Free to love as God loves best described in 1 Cor 13:4-13. Only god can give this to us, for flesh of it self can do 1 Cor, 13:1-3, but is of no use and being under Law is what 1 Cor 13:1-3 is showing us that no flesh that we all are in is ever going to please God. The only flesh that ever did was and is Christ's, the way the truth and the new life in his resurrection for us to live by Faith in the Spirit of God, reckoning oneself dead to flesh sin and alive to God daily in God's Spirit, making us partakers in God's Holiness, for God is the only one righteous, not man

 

[homwardbound]

He counted it as dung, because of relying on himself to do correctly, when the way is to trust in Messiah in us.

Maybe better how about through us, I mean did not the disciples have to wait for the Holy Spirit of God to do the preaching through them? So it was not them was it? They were only nothing more than vessels willingly used by God for God's work to be done through them, true or false? Otherwise why did they have to wait? I mean they were of the Law, they knew the Law as Saul did did they not?
God is truth every man a liar

 

[GregoryC]

If you would open your heart and mind to all of God!! The letters had to show the absolute importance of Christ to save, it was new in the world. It IS important. Giving ourselves over to the Holy Spirit within us IS of major importance. It is the new covenant.

It does not wipe out all old covenants, as you are reading these scriptures to say. Is God who created you a liar? Would God sign a legal document with us, saying it is binding, then say I have decided to cancel that document? Christ didn't ever say one word against His Father, Christ said they were one. He never spoke one time against His Father's teachings, Christ made a point of that every word of it was true. There isn't one scripture saying that when we were given the Holy Spirit to help us understand law it instead wiped out what was written about law, even with all the words to tell us to listen to those words through the spirit.

Col. 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[homwardbound]

Paul makes it clear, we still serve God ( follow His ways as He gave in the Torah.)

A person must serve one of two masters. He is either "bound" in the oldness of the letter to serve his Yetzer Hara (evil inclination), or he is "freed" from this inclination to serve God. (Of course this does not mean he will never sin - even King David sinned, yet he declared himself [in Psalms, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit] to be "righteous according to the Torah.")

So did he see Psalms 100:4 entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise because he saw he can be perfect or because he saw a far off the perfection through trust in God and Son that God was going to give us and now has by Chirst

The difference between Law and grace. is like oil and water they just do not mix

 

[faroukfarouk]

So did he see Psalms 100:4 entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise because he saw he can be perfect or because he saw a far off the perfection through trust in God and Son that God was going to give us and now has by Chirst

The difference between Law and grace. is like oil and water they just do not mix

Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, if read honestly, show time and again how true this is.

 

[homwardbound]

Let me tell you about the King, our Messiah. In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it “the oracles of God.” The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament; and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God.

That Messiah, the Son of God, suffered and died for you. He said what? We're cool guys, just breath and believe. Or did He say this:
Matthew 11:28-30

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

So under Law your burden is light and yoke is easy, I see not. Yet as quoted under Christ being in him by belief and not under the letter of law, rather God's love and Mercy to all, my burden is light now also and the yoke is easy now too, not being burdened any longer with am doing it right or wrong
Walking in the Spirit has brought life that I daily walk in thanking God in praises and thanksgiving as King David did in Psalms 100:4

Knowing this that thinking of flesh wrongs only brings about flesh wrongs especially in trying not to do fleshly wrongs, it is the thinking that brings flesh wrongs forth
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
That is the Law since the covenant made with Abraham in the order of Melchizedek
We are under the Laws of Love and that is what it has been before the Law of Moses was ever put in place. The law of Moses was put in place to show them their sinfulness, that they by Law could not fulfill it.
And this is what Christ did, fulfilled it the law of Moses and we are now under a new Priesthood and new Laws
[h=3]Hebrews 9:15-17[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


[h=3]Hebrews 7:11-12[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

 

[faroukfarouk]

So under Law your burden is light and yoke is easy, I see not. Yet as quoted under Christ being in him by belief and not under the letter of law, rather God's love and Mercy to all, my burden is light now also and the yoke is easy now too, not being burdened any longer with am doing it right or wrong
Walking in the Spirit has brought life that I daily walk in thanking God in praises and thanksgiving as King David did in Psalms 100:4

Knowing this that thinking of flesh wrongs only brings about flesh wrongs especially in trying not to do fleshly wrongs, it is the thinking that brings flesh wrongs forth
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
That is the Law since the covenant made with Abraham in the order of Melchizedek
We are under the Laws of Love and that is what it has been before the Law of Moses was ever put in place. The law of Moses was put in place to show them their sinfulness, that they by Law could not fulfill it.
And this is what Christ did, fulfilled it the law of Moses and we are now under a new Priesthood and new Laws
Hebrews 9:15-17

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


Hebrews 7:11-12

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? [SUP]12[/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Amen and amen.

The law is a mirror, but doesn't change the heart. Obsessing with the law reminds me of a teenaged girl spending hours staring at and putting on her face with a mirror.

 

[homwardbound]

18 how to perform that which is good I find not.
Neither the "wish" to do good -- nor the observance of the commandments as an end to itself, is enough. God wishes us to serve Him out of love and a pure heart, not just to respond because the command says to.


19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Two verses that contribute to this thought are:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - There is not a righteous man on earth that does good and sins not.
​

Isaiah 64:5 - Even our good deeds are as filthy rags.
​

Which is why we are to reckon our selves dead to flesh with Christ at Christ's death to flesh and thus alive to God the Father in the Spirit of Father, being given the gift from Father thanks to Son Christ
Entering his courts with thanksgiving and praise, go figure. No wait a minute I need to perform, I need to get pats on the back, I need to be noticed by others as ot what I am doing or not doing. hearing your own flesh that can't please God, but can please man

Did not Christ say do not be like the hypocrites:

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

Are we listening we each know our motive and whether we take God's amazing grace through Son for granted or not. More importantly God knows, and God is righteous in all God does or will do or even allow to be done

So please anyone and all please do not:
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

This dying for us was never meant to take for granted or use as an occasion for the flesh to get away with harming anyone
Rather to appreciate so deeply that we can't help but love back as God loves us

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[homwardbound]

23 the law of my mind
As contrasted to the "law in my members." It is man's will that makes the choice between serving his Creator or his own will. Once a man allows his own will to become his master, his mind and will are taken captive by fleshy desires.

As stated elsewhere by Paul:

2 Corinthians 10:5 - Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

​

[h=3]2 Corinthians 10:6[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

How you doing? me not so good, hmm can't by me trying take all thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ can you?
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[homwardbound]

24 Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Note that Paul does NOT say, "Who will set me free from the Torah?" Through the righteousness of Yeshua ("the Lord our righteousness"), so that he can now walk (follow God's Torah) according to the Spirit of truth and holiness, putting to death the "spirit of the flesh."

To me what you just said is a gross misinterpretation of who is the one than can save me only.
Paul just showed what sinful flesh is and does and can not behave perfectly, and we need Christ alone to teach us all truth and wait for God to lead us in all things through the very same Holy Spirit that led Christ

 

[homwardbound]

To be led by the Spirit means we have a love for God's laws and the power of the Spirit to kill the sins within us, and obey all the laws which Jesus tells us to obey. The N.t tells us which laws Jesus wants us to obey in this age. Because the Spirit has set us free from our old husband SIN and jointed us to our new Husband Jesus, and His righteous laws for us to obey. So in fact we are married to the righteousness of the law of God. We are married to the whole Bible less the particular laws that were only for the O.T. times: like the ordinances and feasts day .etc. . The moral laws of the old and N.T., godly principles of pleasing God in this age of law of liberty, to follow our new heart, our renewed conscience. Love to all, Hoffco

God's love received is the total fulfillment of all Law thanks Doug

 

[homwardbound]

I am so sorry you can't see!!! Bondage is from sin. Look at the men in prisons, they were in bondage to sin until they had to be put in bondage of a prison. The law of sin and death is the law of the devil. You talk of Christ, you know Christ, and I would bet you listen to the law of the Lord and obey it all you can. Yet you fight against knowing about God's law as holy and good, it is bewildering! You are living a life of law and order and teaching a life of disorder. Holding on to being led by the spirit is good, you have that. The spirit leads to a life of God's law, why fight against that?

Sister, I think he is talking about the fight of flesh and the Spirit of God
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

When we are born again led by God's Spirit are we not dead to flesh and held alive in the flesh by God?

 

[faroukfarouk]

God's love received is the total fulfillment of all Law thanks Doug

What we need is not the concision of law-keeping and boasting in the flesh, but the peace of resting in Christ's perfect work, seen in His better priesthood and finished sacrifice, as we walk in newness of life.

Blessings.

 

[homwardbound]

Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, if read honestly, show time and again how true this is.

Yes and oh how many times I read it and never understood it until what a year and a half ago. Each time I re-read a new revelation shows up in me from God and just see God's unfathomable love deeper and deeper as I die deeper and deeper to my self image that this world built me up on, from birth on started with do good and you will get blessings from God do evil and you will be kicked out, given this a works mentality, that gets ingrained in us all, and is what makes it hard to cross on over to the other side by Faith in the finished works of God through Son Christ
Where by his death he Christ has made us perfect before Father to enter into his courts with thanksgiving and praise with the new life Father gives us in Spirit only by the resurrected Christ, justified in Spirit and truth. Where today is the only way God is worshiped period. For God is a Spirit and seeks:

• John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
  John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
• John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
  John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
• John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
  John 14:16-18 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
• John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Hoffco]

To be led by the Spirit means we have a love for God's laws and the power of the Spirit to kill the sins within us, and obey all the laws which Jesus tells us to obey. The N.t tells us which laws Jesus wants us to obey in this age. Because the Spirit has set us free from our old husband SIN and jointed us to our new Husband Jesus, and His righteous laws for us to obey. So in fact we are married to the righteousness of the law of God. We are married to the whole Bible less the particular laws that were only for the O.T. times: like the ordinances and feasts day .etc. . The moral laws of the old and N.T., godly principles of pleasing God in this age of law of liberty, to follow our new heart, our renewed conscience. Love to all, Hoffco

Homwardbound, I THINK your post655 is a MOCK to my post635. you and Karraster are not listening to GOD'S word.! You said two things that made God happy: WE are only "vessels" for God to use,GREAT, God saves the elect as we preach His words. And I love your words: "dead to flesh sin and alive to God daily" GREAT!
please study hard my posts 635 & 639. Your teaching is making Christianity into a bad cult of easy believeism. All forms of "extreme grace" "scandalizing grace" "free grace" "grace alone, by Christ alone, by faith alone" of today are destroying the power and love of God. Eph.2:1-10 Salvation is by grace, thru, with our faith in Christ, unto our good, holy works in the Spirit, done by us. Our good works are not filthy rags, they are a sweet smell to God. ROM. 2:1-29 we will not be saved without our good works.! Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Karraster]

Homwardbound, I THINK your post655 is a MOCK to my post635. you and Karraster are not listening to GOD'S word.! You said two things that made God happy: WE are only "vessels" for God to use,GREAT, God saves the elect as we preach His words. And I love your words: "dead to flesh sin and alive to God daily" GREAT!
please study hard my posts 635 & 639. Your teaching is making Christianity into a bad cult of easy believeism. All forms of "extreme grace" "scandalizing grace" "free grace" "grace alone, by Christ alone, by faith alone" of today are destroying the power and love of God. Eph.2:1-10 Salvation is by grace, thru, with our faith in Christ, unto our good, holy works in the Spirit, done by us. Our good works are not filthy rags, they are a sweet smell to God. ROM. 2:1-29 we will not be saved without our good works.! Love to all, Hoffco

Sir, You are not reading my posts if you think Homeward and I are saying the same thing!!! As a matter of fact, I'm not sure what Home is saying, but if you see where I need correcting, point out specifically where you disagree. I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance.~karraster