The Letter to the Romans...

Hoffco · Jan 21, 2014

am tring to get people to understand that Jesus dying on the cross did everything for me, to provide salvation for me/us. But His death did nothing in us, or to us to save us. WE were not there.! The thief, on His right side, got saved because Jesus talked to His soul and made it alive. WE were not their. I did not "die with " Jesus. I died in my bed room in the yr. 1961 as I prayed the sinners pray asking for salvation from Jesus. When Paul writes, " I am crucified with Christ", He is only talking ofa positional ,relational Death by association, as I am One of the elect "in Christ before the the world was make. But it had no reality, except in the mind of God. My death to sin "with Jesus" is spoken by Paul in Rom. 6:3-8. It is accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit when He baptized me ,spiritually in my spirit, making the salvation experience real to me, in the yr.1961 by the new birth into God's family. We did not "die"with Christ on the cross.!! If one doesn't not get baptized by the Spirit . they are not save; Spirit baptism is for salvation. LOVE IN CHRIST< Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 21, 2014

I will continue my outline for the next division of the book of Romans.
IV. Sanctificastion, righteousness imparted revisited. 5:19-8:29. ( I changed 5:14 to 5:19)
A. Many are/will be MADE righteous (consituted,by a new nature) by Jesus' power, His GRACE works righteousness of heart,mind and soul by the resurrection power . 5:19-21.
B. Objections answered 6:1-23.
1. Shall we sin to get grace? 6:1-14.
a. NO, We were spiritually baptised by the Spirit,into Jesus death for sin.
b. By the new birth we died to sin.
c. By he renewing of the new birth we are alive to righteousness.
d. Reconize your death to sin and your life to God /righteousness.
2. Shall we sin because we are not under the law?
a. NO, we are servants of the one we serve.
b. We are freed from sin and enslaved to God, righteousness.
c. This is the eternal life in Christ Jesus.
Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 22, 2014

C. The normal Chritian life, The life of freedom from the condemnation of the law,grouth in grace, and warfare with sin.
Romans 7:1-25.
1. The problem of the sin nature in us.
2. The law is, holy, righteous, good, spiritual; I am sinful.
3. I joyfully serve the law of God in my renewed nature, heart and mind.

D. Sanctification, begun, and continued. The bases of all victory over sin. Romans 8:1-39.
1. No condemnation to those who are born again of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. v.1-2.
2. We are freed from the law of sin and death.v.2.
3. We walk in the spirit, obeying the law of God. vs.4-11.
4. The way of life in Christ is death to sin.vs.12-13.
5. Those who suffer for Jesus wil be glorified. 14-27.
6. All things work together for our good. v.28.
7. God's plan, purpose, of salvation. vs.29-30.
8. God's unconditional election of persons to salvation. vs. 31-39
Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 22, 2014

What is the valve of an interpretive outline? It gives us a picture of the author's content and scope ,goal of his book, in one glance. Only in keeping facts in context can we get the author's over all purpose; How does each part fit into and add to the understanding of the authors goal, purpose. It takes years of analytical study and syntheticly rebuilding the facts, to make an interpretative outline. Without an outline we can spin our wheels and get no where. But, I will stop my outline ,until Yahshua can catch up to where I am. I am tring to keep the contextual thread in Paul's thinking alive, for all to see, as we look at individual passages. Anyone who disbelieves a major theme of a book, does not have a heart for God's truth. Love is patience, so if one wants to learn, they will, if, they "hang in there". Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 22, 2014

Since I still have the "floor" i will give an example of contextual interpretion with the words of Rom. 1:17 "The just shall live by faith." The setting, context of the verse, help us to know what Paul, and God wants us to think of this statement. The setting is all of ch.one. ;because the whole ch. is concerned with one thing, godly living as opposed to ungodly live; Therefore we must conclude ,the verse has to do with godly live. sanctification of life to God and created by God. The setting is: v.5 "the obedience of faith", v.7. "called to be saints",holy ones.v. 16. " the gospel of Christm for it is the power of God to salvation "v.18. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men." Therefore what paul/God is saying: good men and women live holy lives because of their real faith in Christ. They are born again, effectually "called" by God ,with a new heart , and so theylove to obey God. NOW< in contrast this meaning, Paul uses the same verse in Gal.3:11 but has a different meaning in mind. "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident for 'the just shall live by faith.' " Therefore ,this time , Paul is looking at forgiveness by God because we trust in Jesus as our savior. and not by the "works of the law". BUT, by ch. 6:7-10, Paul tells us, we will not be saved ,unless we : "sow to the Spirit, reap eternal life". Only holy, good persons go to Heaven. Also, please, keep in mind the God and Paul always put sanctification before justification. Context is the key to meaning. Love to all, Hoffco

Elin · Jan 22, 2014

Hoffco said:

Judaizers all read from the same playbook. ..with the same erroneous translations and twisted interpretations.

Indeed, it is. . .and following is the "alternative" context of Ro 1:17.

Ro 1:16-17:

"The gospel of Christ is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.
For in the gospel a righteousness from God (not from works of obedience) is revealed,
a righteousness that is by faith, (not by works of obedience)
from first to last (works of obedience are not involved)
as it is written, "The just (diakaios="righteous") shall live (receive eternal life) by faith." (Hab 2:4)

Hab 2:4 - "See, he (Nebuchadnezzar) is puffed up;
his desires are not upright--
but the righteous will live by his faith."

That is, in whatever defense the ungodly shall trust, they will not stand, because a solid life
consists only in faith.
In contrast to the Babylonians (collective "he," with special reference to Nebuchadnezzar),
whose desires are not right,
the righteous, in light of God's revelation about how and when he is working, are to
wait patiently and live by faith--trusting in their sovereign God.

And during the captivity the good people were supported by faith in these precious promises.

The power of God is for salvation--resurrection from our spiritual death into eternal life
by the Holy Spirit.

Righteousness = justification, guiltlessness through faith in Jesus Christ
which forgives one's sin and gives them right standing with God (righteousness).

It is from God alone, not from works of obedience, and does not mean holiness.
Righteousness is justification/guiltlessness, it is not sanctification/holiness.

Sanctification = holiness, which follows upon righteousness/justification/guiltlessness,
through practice of the obedience of faith.

In the received-by-personal-revelation-from-Jesus-Christ gospel of Paul,
righteousness/justification/guiltlessness is not the same thing as sanctification/holiness.

Righteousness/justification/guiltlessness is from God alone,

sanctification/holiness is in the practice of the obedience of faith by the grace of God.

Neither God nor Paul put sanctification/holiness before

justification/guiltlessness/righteousness.

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

Elin,It is Shameful how you twist the obvious truth. Rom. one is talking of the POWER of GOD"S GRACE that gives spiritual life to a dead soul. All the sinner needs is to do, is to believe in God who has power to awaken the dead soul, and ask,in faith, for the new heart. Without the "Work of the law" by the Spirit in the sinners heart, there would never be a conversion, the new birth. It takes a lot of work to get a baby born. I had the joy of helping deliever two of my chilfren, my wife worked very hard, but the bady did not do a bit of work, but I bet, it was not very pleasent for them. The pastor's today are so ignorant about the new birth, they don't know how to instruct the sinner how to get born of God. It is not a legal transaction, it is a messy birth. But once God gives the newly created spirit to us, we feel it and cry out for forgiveness and cleansing from our guilt, and our guilt is washed away. The new birth is by God's POWER, but justification is by God's AUTHORITY to forgive the sins. Hoffco

Elin · Jan 23, 2014

Hoffco said:

Thanks, Hoffco, but for your statement to have merit, you must show what I twisted, and how.

Actually, the grammatical construction of Ro 1:5 is not about giving spiritual life, but is about
Paul and the ministers of the gospel receiving grace and apostleship to call Gentiles
to the obedience of faith.

Ro 1:5-6 - "We received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles
to the obedience that comes from faith. And you also are among those who are called to belong
to Jesus Christ."

In order to agree with its contra-NT view, the Judaizer/Messianic playbook alters the grammatical
construction of the Greek, giving to the Gentiles (who don't even know the gospel) the grace and
apostleship "to call people," rather than giving the grace and apostleship to Paul, et al, as the text states.

And Ro 1:16-17 is talking about righteousness from God (as apposed to from works of obedience),
and the remainder of chp 1 is talking about the unrighteousness of the Gentiles,
followed in chp 2 by the unrighteousness of the Jews,
and the unrighteousness of all mankind in chap 3.

Our soul is is not dead, for it is what animates (gives life to) our body.

However, our immortal spirit is in spiritual death; i.e., no Holy Spirit life.
But our spirit itself does not die, it is immortal. (Heb 12:23),
as were the spirits of Lazarus, in Abraham's bosom, and the rich man, in Hades (Lk 16).

Rebirth/salvation takes place through faith in Christ Jesus, which removes sin and guilt,
making one guiltless and right with God (righteous).

Either you seriously misunderstand, or you do not believe, the NT word of God which states otherwise.

All the law does is condemn (Gal 3:10; Dt 27:26), because it cannot be kept satisfactorily.

Yes, it takes God's mighty resurrection power to raise our spirits from spiritual death to eternal life.

The sinner has no more to do with his spiritual rebirth than does the baby with his natural birth.

In both cases, we are totally acted upon.

We can't get born of God by a human decision: "not born of human decision, but born of God."
(Jn 1:14).

Resurrection of our spirits to eternal life, or spiritual rebirth, is not "messy,"
any more than Christ's resurrection was "messy."

That is messy human thinking.

Our spirit is never newly created.

"Spiritual" death does not mean our spirits are mortal (can die), only that they have no Holy Spirit life.

You have some seriously faulty understanding of the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days
(Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

That is a legal description of "guiltless;" i.e., forgiven by the authority of God, through faith,
not by works of obedience.

And God's POWER and AUTHORITY (dunastes, dunamis) are inseparably the same,

just as new birth, faith, justification/guiltless are inseparably the same.

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

Elin, you are almost with me, but you keep hitting fowl balls. I am you senior,and one of your elders, bishop in the CHURCH of CHRIST. We are both "senior members" in chat; you 45, me 70 ,lol,that is a joke,but I am fine with that. no pride, you are my equal, if not mysuperior,ok? ok . ; no? yes. ( i love it, no? ; yes.) I am married to a Philippina (femine) LOL BUT, in Christ , I am your elder (52 yrs, in Christ) and your Bishop. no? yes. Sorry to pull rank on you, it really has little to do with our discussion. I view you as my equal, yet "ignorant" of some "deep" truths of the FAITH. Love in Christ, Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

OK, you are on line. you may reply. evaluating your last post, confusing, bewildering, why would you give an "alternate" context in place of the real context?, this is a fowl" ball! Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

Ok, you are busy, What do you think Paul means by "the works of the law" as in contrast to"the work of the law"? My interpretion is: "the works of the law" are ritual duties ,likr circumcision, these don't save; but the "work of the law": is the conviction of our sins which the law gives us an the holy Spirit uses the law on our hard hearts to soften us to the gospel, good news, with out the conviction of the Spirit , the gospel is not good news to our ears. This is what is so bad about the gospel preaching today, we don't preach the law for conviction. Hoffco

john832 · Jan 23, 2014

Hoffco said:

Ya think?

*ten characters*

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

As I read and preach on, Jonah,Micah, Nahum, and Habakkuk I am seeing the relation of the 4 books, it is a complete story. as you said Nebuchadnezzar was a very prood man, big contrast to Habakkuk and the "just", the righteous in conduct, not in position only. , like habakkak ,who lived out his faith,, old Nebbie, got faith in the end ,by God's grace, power in his heart,. Then, nebbie lived by faith.You must learn the dual meaning of GRACE: POWER and MERCY. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

"Ya think?" so.? lol. I likes that southern accent,JOhn. Have you seen the difference in these 2 phrases,? John? "the work of the law ' and "the works of the law" . Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

Elin, In justification, we have nothing in us, NOTHING, to base a"solid" life on. Justification is only a new "standing" "setted in Heaven" with God, Christ, but no desire to love God or obey God. The new birth is first, "you must be born of the Spirit to "see,understand" the kingdom of God. listen to peter 1:2"..by sanctification of the Spirit for (it leads to)bedience and sprinkling (justification) of the blood of Jesus Christ:.." v.3 .."begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection..." our hope (position)is real to us because we are born of the Spirit. As the Westminister conf, reads "sanctification,which began in the calling the new birth" (close quote, if not perfect,ok? ok.) I'm sure, C.H.Surgeon would agree.hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

God can not command us to "be holy as I am holy" if God did not give us the new birth first. Juscti. gives us NOTHING,but a new RECORD in Heaven; no new heart,which only come with the new heart, no sancti. no salvation ,no life in the holiness of God. Hoffco

Elin · Jan 23, 2014

Hoffco said:

I need to know where those two are found so that I may examine their context to understand them correctly.

That sounds good, but I need to know where "works of the law" and "work of the law" are used,
so I may examine what Paul means by them.

But that is not how it works in all cases, see Isa 65:1.

According to the Judaizer/Messianic playbook, I am hitting fowl balls.

But as I said previously, you must show what and how they are fowl balls
for your statement to have merit.

And the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers
is the only measure.

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

To brother Yahshua, WE are waiting, actively, for your return to lead us in this great and much needed study, Pray you are well. love in Christ. God knew, Elin and I needed this study, as is proven by the providence of God our Father in the timing of His will for us, to interreact. God bless us all! Bro. Hoffco

Hoffco · Jan 23, 2014

Amen, I speak only God's BOOK,Biblious,BIBLE. look in romans 2:15 "the work of the law written in their hearts" and Gal.2:16 "not (justi.) by the works of the law". Because the "works of the law" can be done in "the flesh" , by wicked persons who circumcise, etc, as unsaved persons; As with the unsaved, circumized, Jew of Rom. 2. ALSO, justi. is without the "deeds" NKJV "works" NASV "of the law".Rom.2:20. Hoffco

Elin · Jan 23, 2014

Hoffco said:

Perhaps in the meantime, you could address the two following which are on the table.

So how's about it?

The Letter to the Romans...

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Elin

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john832

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