The Letter to the Romans...

[Hoffco]

thanks to Yahshua for many good posts, He understands a basic principle of the whole Bible, law keeping is required by any one who is and desires to be save; and the GRACE of God is the power that enables us to believe and obey. The big problem, which I have is the traditional interpretation of the Gentles and conscience in rom 2:13-16: for me the context must means these Gentiles are born again,partly by the "work of law written in their hearts" by the Holy Spirits' use of the law to convict of sin, then the Spirit cleanses them of their guilty conscience, this is the "washing of regeneration " Titus 4:5 and the "renewing of the Holy Spirit" rebuilding their conscience to a holy state to know right from wrong. there is no salvation without conviction and renewal. This is sanctification, work done in us, not justification, which is only our new position In Heaven in Christ. New birth comes before Justification. The natural man has no conscience. and the reform believer will tell us, as we hold them to the fire, they will admit, that conscience is not a standard of right and wrong. it is only a feeling of "ought". in natural sinners. Calvin would admit that conscience in sinners is no good to him, it is totally dead, to any good work, total depravity. This gentile in 2:114-16 is a saved gentile and Paul uses his example to shame the hypocritical, lost Jew. The role of conscience in v,15 is on the judgement day, not today.,, Hoffco

 

[weakness]

Romans 1:18-23

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Unlike those who are found righteous in their obedience to God through the power of grace by faith in Christ (which is “the gospel message”), the unrighteous suppress this truth and worship idols instead of giving God glory. But they have *no excuse* for their unrighteousness because God makes his divine nature known by all that he has made.


If you agree with this interpretation, “like”.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.[/QUOTE May be K.J. brings this out better. an important thing to see here is,(18) the wrath of god is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. The truth can be revealed by ones unrighteousness just as much as their righteousness. Even though they are resisting Gods truth, the truth of god can be seen in that they hold the truth in unrighteousness .God's message will be proclaimed and every knee shall bow and declare God righteous whether they are willing our not. Gods righteousness is declared in judgement against those who resist the obvious truth contained in the creation. Hope this makes sense to you

 

[weakness]

Anytime I walk in the flesh I do, but anytime I walk in the Spirit I don't have time for sin to have control, too busy praising and thanking God for Son Christ being dead daily to flesh and alive to God daily[/QUOTE But isn't Christ made unto us wisdom and sanctification ect. We consistently overlook that it is Jesus in us who is our life. Through the Holy Spirit in us we are new creatures. The carnal man is enmity, we cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.The carnal man (which we are before Christ ) is not subject to God ,neither indeed can be. It's the cross, baptized into his death,His Spirit in us willing and doing of his good pleasure. God does not pull us up by the boot straps,no he kills the flesh and lives the life of the Spirit within us . No glory for our selves in that , only in Gods unfathomable love for us , and his calling to labor to enter into this rest ,ceasing from our own works. Not that we are without work, but they are Christ's works working in us.

 

[Hoffco]

I will con't my outline , Point II. with sub.point C.
C. The advantage for the Jews 3:1-8
D. The condemnation of all men 3:9-20
III. Imputed righteousness, Justification, given to sinners by Grace and by Faith. 3:21-5:14.
A. Justification, God's imputed righteousness to sinners.vs.3:21-3:31.
1. by faith, apart from the "works of the law". vs.21-23
2. by grace, a gift. v. 24
3. apart from the works of the law.v. 28
4. by faith we establish the law. v. 31
B. Justification, Imputed righteousness illustrated. 4:1-25
1. Abrahams faith, a part from the works of the law.4:1-15
2. Abrahams faith was in God. By grace he was made alive to God, born ofGod. 4:16-22
3. Abrahams faith was an example of our faith in Jesus Christ. 4:23-25
C. The benefits of justification,(imputed righteousness) 5:1-18
1. Peace with God, perseverance, character, hope vs. 1-5
2. Without Jesus we are: helpless, ungodly, sinners, enemies of God, vs. 6-10
3. We are reconciled and shall be saved vs.10-11
4. We are justified as a gift from Jesus . vs.12-18
D. Sanctification, Righteousness imparted, revisited. 5:19-8:39

Hoffco,

 

[john832]

Well, this thread went to sheol in a handbasket.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

Actually let me put the tombstone on it

Paul closes the whole book with this

Rom 16:26 But now is made (manifest, obvious certain for sure.),
and by the scriptures of the prophets, (old testament, remember?)
according to the 10 commandments
of the everlasting forever and ever living God,
made known, told to everyone, to all nations
for the obedience of faith:
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith.
Amen even SO come Lord Jesus.

Obey ALL the Ten commandments and all the prophets forever and ever for all the world amen.

Friends
GET yourself
a FREE Bible
like theword.net
and READ it
CLICK on the words
we are not i the church of England with ever burning hell, standing in prayer, predestination and all that garbage
we are to DOIG for what was LOST in coverups

read the stories
pray every day
grow grow grow
and put the WHOLE armour on for every church in town will drag you out of the city and stone you like Paul
but you will
if you have the word
no longer die
you have the truth
you cannot die in obedience to the truth
you are a Jew by faith and one of the ever living ones now
Living by faith i the WHOLE word of God.
Amen even so come Lord Jesus.

 

[homwardbound]

The outline of Romans is key to understanding the whole book. All the outlines I have seen, pervert the meaning of the book, as I have stated in the Theme: How God makes saints out of sinners, in a moment of time, with the new birth.
Paul begins this great book with Sanctification,which is, rightiousness imparted by the new Birth, chs. 1&2. THEN, Paul teaches Justifacation by GRACE and FAITH, chs.3-5:14. THEN, ch.5;15 -21 is a transition back to Sanctification. The key word for Sanctification is "IMPARTED" and the key word for Justification is "IMPUTED". Hoffco

A transfer from death to life. a gift from God to us that believe god at God's faithfulness not ours right?

 

[homwardbound]

Faith only as you understand it is based on not knowing God's view of faith. That is shown through Abraham who did not simply have a mental agreement of faith in God, but that mental faith was enough to act on it. In God's view, faith that does not result in the ability to act is dead.

The body without the Spirit of God is dead, just as Faith without God's works in it is dead

 

[homwardbound]

Elin, you are true to the fudging reform believers. They make a dogmatic claim , "Justification by Faith alone", the then modify it ,to be more Biblical, "But, faith that abides alone is not saving faith." This is how Calvin and all half baked reform believers act, talked. If you hold them to the heat, they change their dogmatic, one side ,false claim. I always seek to be more Honest to Scripture. Luther was more honest, He rejected the book of James because of James dogmatic statements of "justification by WORKS and not faith only". James2:24. Rom. 2:13 is literally true, only holy , God fearing, obeying the law persons will be save, justified by works. as James and Jesus taught. Hoffco

Hoffco, I agree works are involved in Faith, yet how are what works are to be performed?
Works of self to show others or works of God in through you by God as in Noah's time where they laughed at Noah, for it had never rained yet on earth prior to Noah
And as in Abraham or Job, all walked by Faith and did as god which to man was ludicrous, calling the believer crazy.
As you might think me crazy to say I am dead to flesh and alive to God by Christ's death. yet am still alive in flesh, held alive by the Spirit of God and led that way to love as Christ loves and loved us all through the cross
Anyway, this is what scripture tells me to reckon:
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yet most do not see this to believe this and when one does believe this they leave the sinful nature as dead trusting God to do in them what the flesh could never do prior to belief, and the world call us crazy.

 

[Elin]

Actually let me put the tombstone on it

Paul closes the whole book with this

Rom 16:26 But now is made (manifest, obvious certain for sure.),
and by the scriptures of the prophets, (old testament, remember?)
according to the 10 commandments
of the everlasting forever and ever living God,
made known, told to everyone, to all nations
for the obedience of faith:
what?
for the OBEDIENCE of faith

Yes, true faith obeys. Where there is no obedience, there is no true faith,
there is only counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23)

And actually, Ro 16:25-26 reads:

"Now to him who is able to establish you in my (received-by-direct-revelation) gospel
and the proclamation of Jesus Christ
(the gospel is more than "repent and believe", it is the entirety of the four gospels),
according to the mystery hidden for long ages past
(see 1Tim 3:16; Eph 1:9, 3:3-6; 1Co 15:51; Ro 11:25),
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings (the whole OT)
by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations (mankind) might believe and obey him.

True faith obeys.

 

[homwardbound]

Anytime I walk in the flesh I do, but anytime I walk in the Spirit I don't have time for sin to have control, too busy praising and thanking God for Son Christ being dead daily to flesh and alive to God daily[/QUOTE But isn't Christ made unto us wisdom and sanctification ect. We consistently overlook that it is Jesus in us who is our life. Through the Holy Spirit in us we are new creatures. The carnal man is enmity, we cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.The carnal man (which we are before Christ ) is not subject to God ,neither indeed can be. It's the cross, baptized into his death,His Spirit in us willing and doing of his good pleasure. God does not pull us up by the boot straps,no he kills the flesh and lives the life of the Spirit within us . No glory for our selves in that , only in Gods unfathomable love for us , and his calling to labor to enter into this rest ,ceasing from our own works. Not that we are without work, but they are Christ's works working in us.

Thanks well put and we are in agreement, so let's both die daily to self be co-crucified daily to self dead with Christ at the death so that we might see the new life in the Spirit and thus walk as Christ walked in 100% dependence on Father's lead
Walking in the Spirit of Father there is no sin, so I choose daily to die to the self, and be alive to God and anyone else?

 

[Elin]

God's basis of judgment (sentence) for one's eternal destiny,
during the old covenant (the time of the Jews) before the death of Christ,
was according to the law for the Jews, and according to conscience for the Gentiles.

God's basis of judgment (sentence) for one's eternal destiny,
after the old covenant and the death of Christ,
is according to faith in Christ Jesus, for both Jews and Gentiles.

But in both cases, for those before and after the death of Christ,
his righteous judgment (sentence) for one's eternal destiny
will be revealed at the end of time,

in contrast to his temporal judgment in Ro 1:18-32, which is not a sentence of eternal destiny.

For example, God can judge a nation with famine,
but it is not a judgment (sentence) of their eternal destiny.

Under the law, the basis of judgment was obedience, to the law or to one's conscience.

After the law, the basis of judgment is faith, not law keeping.

< But true faith obeys. Where there is no obedience, there is no true faith. >

Now, how about you say what I just said in a much better and more simple way for me.

My head was in the play-offs yesterday. . .got my team to the Super Bowl!

I should have just said:

"Judgment" is used two ways in Scripture:

temporal judgment = punishment in time; e.g., famine, plague, etc.

eternal judgment = eternal death; i.e, eternal separation from God

Under the law of the old covenant and before the death of Christ, eternal judgment was based on
law keeping/obedience, which judgment will be revealed at the end of time.

Under the new covenant and after the death of Christ,
eternal judgment is based on faith in Christ Jesus, which judgment will be revealed at the end of time.

 

[Elin]

Elin, you are true to the fudging reform believers. They make a dogmatic claim , "Justification by Faith alone", the then modify it ,to be more Biblical, "But, faith that abides alone is not saving faith." This is how Calvin and all half baked reform believers act, talked. If you hold them to the heat, they change their dogmatic, one side ,false claim. I always seek to be more Honest to Scripture.

If I may be so pertinent as to suggest the problem is not fudging, but your inability to see or understand distinctions.

True faith obeys.

But it is only the belief that saves, not its obedience of works.

The catch is. . .in practice you can't separate true faith from obedience,
for the definition of true faith is "faith that obeys."

However, obedience is the result of the true faith that saves.

If faith does not result in obedience, it is not true faith and, therefore, it is not saving faith,
it is counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23).

So we are saved by true faith, not its works of obedience.

Luther was more honest, He rejected the book of James because of James dogmatic statements of "justification by WORKS and not faith only". James2:24. Rom. 2:13 is literally true, only holy , God fearing, obeying the law persons will be save, justified by works. as James and Jesus taught.

The word of God does not contradict itself.

James is not contradicting the fact that righteousness is from God by faith (not by my obedience),
apart from law keeping; i.e., obedience (Ro 1:17, 3:21),
as a free gift (Ro 5:17), by faith (Ro 1:17, 3:22), not by its works of obedience.

Luther did not realize that James was simply saying (Jas 2:14) true saving faith obeys (works of obedience).

James 2:22 - "Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did
when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?"

Yes, he was considered righteous for his act of faith in Ge 22.

However, he was considered righteous long before that in Ge 15:6, simply because he believed,
without any act.

Ro 2:13 - "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight,
but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Two things:

1) Under the old covenant before the death of Christ, eternal judgment was based on law keeping.

2) However, no one was able to keep it satisfactorily, so no one was declared righteous under it,
and all those under it were condemned (Gal 3:10).

Under the new covenant after the death of Christ, eternal judgment is based on true saving faith
(Ro 3:22).

 

[crossnote]

Luther often spoke in hyperbole. Of course he didn't reject James, he wrote commentaries on it. He did consider it a lesser/less central book though and called it straw IN COMPARISON to some of the other books.

 

[Elin]

Luther often spoke in hyperbole. Of course he didn't reject James, he wrote commentaries on it. He did consider it a lesser/less central book though and
called it straw IN COMPARISON to some of the other books.

I think it was "strawy epistles."

 

[chubbena]

Yes, from the context the "among you" is referring to the believers in Rome, those same believers he's writing to. Apologies; I don't think I was clear in my explanation, but I'm led to believe from the immediate context preceding the statement you're asking about, that Paul is harvesting more faith for himself. Seeing the new believers gives him even more faith to perform the work God has commissioned him to do.

I come to this conclusion because of key phrases in the passage (in bold)...

Romans 1:8-15

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that *we* may be mutually encouraged by *each other's* faith, both yours and mine. I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to non-Greeks, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.​

Paul longed to see them so that he *also* could be encouraged by *their* faith (as they would be encouraged by his when they finally saw him); this is what he wanted to receive from them: encouragement. Then comes the line where he says "I indent to come to you so I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the gentiles."

..."some harvest" of what? Well it has to be what he just stated he wanted to receive from them. Paul wanted some harvest (i.e. some measure) of encouragement to grow his faith even more. Remember, this is a relatively "young" movement at this point that's catching fire, and Paul hasn't been in Rome yet to see these new believers, and seeing them would get him even more "fired up" than he already was.

Sorry I was not being clear. What I wanted to say was the opposite - that the recipients of the letter were not all believers but quite a few of them "seekers". Paul wrote this letter, I'd say, as a gospel of repentance and forgiveness of sins - the reason he quoted much from the scripture and kept clarifying he didn't nullify the law in the following chapters.

 

[chubbena]

Yes Paul did quote Habakkuk 2:4

"Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith."​

...I'm trying to keep this thread about Paul's letter to the Romans, but when he quotes passages I understand it necessitates gaining further context from those passages so I'll try to address Habakkuk...but after this, if you'd like to explore Habakkuk even deeper we can start a similar thread for it.

---

The context of "the righteous shall live by his faith" is God's answer to Habakkuk's complain found in chapter 1 of that book, where Habakkuk complains how the Law is paralyzed and its justice never seems to be given and if it is given it's perverted because of wicked people from other nations (Hab 1:4).

Getting more specific, Habakkuk complains about the man who prides himself on his actions to live a comfortable & luxurious life (Hab 1:15-16) by taking advantage of the righteous man for gain (Hab 1:13), and killing/spoiling nations (Hab 1:17). These are unrighteous actions...or (how Paul would say) "evil works". God answers Habakkuk saying "THAT man is prideful and not righteous" (i.e. "it is not upright within him"), comparatively the righteous [man, mentioned in Hab 1:13] will live by his faith" (the context is "as opposed to how the unrighteous man lives which is through his self-seeking actions: deceit, warring and spoiling).

---

I'm hoping to establish an unbroken chain of context for Romans, and that's why post #2 is reference for my interpretation of passage Romans 1:16-17. So of course, if you disagree with Post #2, you won't agree with Post #5 (and so on...and so on...). But since you've given your alternative for post #2 please feel free to give your alternative to post #5 and other subsequent interpretations...just PLEASE remember to follow *your* context.

This is a request to all.

There should be an unbroken chain of context in your posts that others can logically follow from Paul's very first point (you make) to his last (that you make), as Paul wrote a single coherent letter...not multiple independent passages.

In other words, he didn't write the letter to the Romans in such a way that they - gentiles - needed exegesis, using other letters Paul wrote to other people, to understand what each of Paul's interdependent thoughts meant. They wouldn't have had those other letters. So Paul would have clearly explained whatever he was trying to say in the letter itself otherwise the letter wouldn't have made any sense. So likewise, our interpretations/conclusions should logically build from each previous points of Paul that we've shared.


If we need to jump to conclusions, something's wrong with our interpretation.

If one point doesn't logically follow the context of one's previous point, something's wrong with our interpretation.

Problem is, I DO agree with your post #5

 

[Hoffco]

Elin andcrossnot, your both are tooo kind, Luther was a bit sinile, He suffered mush wih old age depression , and I can see it in my mind also; so I play a lot of salitary, while waiting on my slow, stupid computer. LOL BUT,I married a 44 yr old, with younger sisters to help care for me.LOL,smart! please ,study "the work of the law" in our "hearts" conviction and conversion, as opposite of "the works of the law" like circumcision, sab. keeping, which people do to save themselves, rituals, do not save. The Gentiles in rom. 2 aqre saved by the Holy Sirit appling the law and gospel to their hearts. It is loving God, law keeping, we are saved . Love by Grace, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

I have a wrong verse in my outline: III. should end with v.18 not 14. with v.18, Paul brakes off justification and goes back to sanctification with v. 19, of ch. 5. Paul must have had a "masters" in logic. He know how to build his "case" to win.----------
IV. Sanctification, Righteousness imparted, revisited. 5:19-8:39 The normal, the real, Christian. love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin andcrossnot, your both are tooo kind, Luther was a bit sinile, He suffered mush wih old age depression , and I can see it in my mind also; so I play a lot of salitary, while waiting on my slow, stupid computer. LOL BUT,I married a 44 yr old, with younger sisters to help care for me.LOL,smart! please ,study "the work of the law" in our "hearts" conviction and conversion, as opposite of "the works of the law" like circumcision, sab. keeping, which people do to save themselves, rituals, do not save. The Gentiles in rom. 2 aqre saved by the Holy Sirit appling the law and gospel to their hearts. It is
loving God, law keeping, we are saved .

In the NT, salvation is by faith apart from the law (Ro 3:21-22).