THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY
- Thread starter Sudakar
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Hello again Sudakar, what do you mean by that 
How can non-Christians and Christians, in general, regularly appear to be something that they are not, appear to be the very opposite of what they are, in fact (unless someone is forcing them to act in opposition to their free will) I'm confused by what you're saying here because, to me at least, it doesn't make sense.
I became a Christian at 30, and as a Christian (for nearly 34 years now), I've found that true Christians (typically) act like Christians. If someone ~claiming~ to be a Christian lives/acts like an unbeliever instead, then chances are more than just good that they are not/never were the Christians that they now claim to be .. cf Matthew 7:22-23.
I can tell you that personally, I appear FAR more saved now, as a Christian, than I ever did when I was living the very fun, but very sinful lifestyle that I led as an unbeliever (especially during college and for several years afterwards, until I became a believer). And others, who knew me back then (as an unbeliever), and who also know me now as a Christian, would attest to the same thing, that I am obviously a Christian now, and that I obviously was not back then.
~Deut
How can non-Christians and Christians, in general, regularly appear to be something that they are not, appear to be the very opposite of what they are, in fact (unless someone is forcing them to act in opposition to their free will) I'm confused by what you're saying here because, to me at least, it doesn't make sense.I became a Christian at 30, and as a Christian (for nearly 34 years now), I've found that true Christians (typically) act like Christians. If someone ~claiming~ to be a Christian lives/acts like an unbeliever instead, then chances are more than just good that they are not/never were the Christians that they now claim to be .. cf Matthew 7:22-23.
I can tell you that personally, I appear FAR more saved now, as a Christian, than I ever did when I was living the very fun, but very sinful lifestyle that I led as an unbeliever (especially during college and for several years afterwards, until I became a believer). And others, who knew me back then (as an unbeliever), and who also know me now as a Christian, would attest to the same thing, that I am obviously a Christian now, and that I obviously was not back then.
~Deut
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
This isn't @ you specifically, just I appreciate the post.
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Well cool, finally someone has posted something that reflects my "saved" status on this site.
I was hoping someone would bring it up eventually, but it's a bit hard to articulate so that is somewhat helpful. My answer changes each day because I'm a little farther along in the journey. Different elements come to the fore...I also went through the stereotypical "sinners prayer and asking" as one of my earliest memories. I cannot say "the" earliest because I don't have access to the Lord's omniscience
but regardless, despite being stereotypical, it just "was" also. Like oh sure! If that's the way to the Father then of course, why not?
Life has been a long process of asking "why not?" not intentionally the large majority of the time but circumstances and I would presume oppression present a lot of "things" that war against that decision.
Being basically from conscious memory, what I remember of that day (and my mother confirmed it about 8 or so years ago) was quite different from what other people relate when dealing with salvation. Like it's like I knew the Father somehow just from thinking about infinity and the created universe (it was a book about space) I was too young to read, but somehow I understood there was some rather large questions in the pictures.
but yeah, it's like as soon as these revelation was starting to hit me the gospel was preached and I gladly accepted. It's a bit hard to articulate how I've re-understood grace, sin, works all my life sometimes each of these has more of a "spotlight" if that makes sense.
as to the OP...I keep hearing about John McArthur in passing either through debates, or via references, or just recently on a debate about America being in rebellion against the crown (and consequently rebellion against the Lord) OR obeying scripture through civil disobedience, both men I listened to brought up some useful points but that's a topic for another thread. Might be a productive one.
I'll only say that in general I seem to agree with John McArthur with one "side" of me. There's usually some internal debate...it feels to me almost law based and legal but that there is some real "heart" to it as well. I think that's the Lord, but there's also another side that seems to be quite a bit more organic and more "alive" and yet less reachable in my daily life. I'm not explaining it well, but
I do at least agree that Jesus as savior and Jesus as Lord are one in the same but have distinct elements that should be engaged in a believer's life.
Much like Master, Teacher, King, Friend, Bridgegroom, Lord, Savior, etc etc. ALL present different facets of himself that ultimately are beyond each of us, but they are all important to know as the Spirit shows us what they mean for us.
It could be that some have a deeper understanding of Lord than someone else may of Friend or Savior. I'll admit, I like the friend element the most
Oh, I will say that lately I have been stuck in just a lethargic sort of mood where I'm not in the best place with the Lord, and the scripture of "why do you call me Lord..." continues to come up in thought. So even though that is what I traditionally reference when I am praying, just the word Lord has become somewhat hackneyed and the full weight of LORD has been being "reasserted" in regard to Lordship.
I don't care to respond to one sentence questions of the OP but that I probably understand the concept of this Lordship salvation but I'll think about it and perhaps I'll feel led to engage with you Sudakar.
There are ways I would answer each of the questions you have posed to people (in the first 13 pages) myself, but much like another poster, I'd like to see some personal interaction instead of you being the "interviewer" with a rather vague question set.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well cool, finally someone has posted something that reflects my "saved" status on this site.
I was hoping someone would bring it up eventually, but it's a bit hard to articulate so that is somewhat helpful. My answer changes each day because I'm a little farther along in the journey. Different elements come to the fore...I also went through the stereotypical "sinners prayer and asking" as one of my earliest memories. I cannot say "the" earliest because I don't have access to the Lord's omniscience
but regardless, despite being stereotypical, it just "was" also. Like oh sure! If that's the way to the Father then of course, why not?
Life has been a long process of asking "why not?" not intentionally the large majority of the time but circumstances and I would presume oppression present a lot of "things" that war against that decision.
Being basically from conscious memory, what I remember of that day (and my mother confirmed it about 8 or so years ago) was quite different from what other people relate when dealing with salvation. Like it's like I knew the Father somehow just from thinking about infinity and the created universe (it was a book about space) I was too young to read, but somehow I understood there was some rather large questions in the pictures.
but yeah, it's like as soon as these revelation was starting to hit me the gospel was preached and I gladly accepted. It's a bit hard to articulate how I've re-understood grace, sin, works all my life sometimes each of these has more of a "spotlight" if that makes sense.
as to the OP...I keep hearing about John McArthur in passing either through debates, or via references, or just recently on a debate about America being in rebellion against the crown (and consequently rebellion against the Lord) OR obeying scripture through civil disobedience, both men I listened to brought up some useful points but that's a topic for another thread. Might be a productive one.
I'll only say that in general I seem to agree with John McArthur with one "side" of me. There's usually some internal debate...it feels to me almost law based and legal but that there is some real "heart" to it as well. I think that's the Lord, but there's also another side that seems to be quite a bit more organic and more "alive" and yet less reachable in my daily life. I'm not explaining it well, but
I do at least agree that Jesus as savior and Jesus as Lord are one in the same but have distinct elements that should be engaged in a believer's life.
Much like Master, Teacher, King, Friend, Bridgegroom, Lord, Savior, etc etc. ALL present different facets of himself that ultimately are beyond each of us, but they are all important to know as the Spirit shows us what they mean for us.
It could be that some have a deeper understanding of Lord than someone else may of Friend or Savior. I'll admit, I like the friend element the most
Oh, I will say that lately I have been stuck in just a lethargic sort of mood where I'm not in the best place with the Lord, and the scripture of "why do you call me Lord..." continues to come up in thought. So even though that is what I traditionally reference when I am praying, just the word Lord has become somewhat hackneyed and the full weight of LORD has been being "reasserted" in regard to Lordship.
I don't care to respond to one sentence questions of the OP but that I probably understand the concept of this Lordship salvation but I'll think about it and perhaps I'll feel led to engage with you Sudakar.
There are ways I would answer each of the questions you have posed to people (in the first 13 pages) myself, but much like another poster, I'd like to see some personal interaction instead of you being the "interviewer" with a rather vague question set.
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
IS DEMANDING CHRISTIANS TO PROVE THEY HAVE SAVING FAITH WITHOUT STATING A STANDARD TO CHECK FOR COMPLIANCE, MEANINGFUL?
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
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IS DEMANDING CHRISTIANS TO PROVE THEY HAVE SAVING FAITH WITHOUT STATING A STANDARD TO CHECK FOR COMPLIANCE, MEANINGFUL?
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
IS DEMANDING CHRISTIANS TO PROVE THEY HAVE SAVING FAITH WITHOUT STATING A STANDARD TO CHECK FOR COMPLIANCE, MEANINGFUL?
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
Look, Sudakar,
I came here asking no questions of anyone because I steep myself in scripture reading. I have no questions regarding my faith. The only questions I present are in response to discussions already begun by others.
I come here to edify the brethren (if they so choose to be edified).
The spirit behind your questioning comes off as mockery with the intent to make fools out of people. Like how the Pharisees approached Jesus in their questioning (seeking to catch something out of his mouth that they might accuse him).
I am secure in my faith; if that bothers you, I cannot help that.
I came here asking no questions of anyone because I steep myself in scripture reading. I have no questions regarding my faith. The only questions I present are in response to discussions already begun by others.
I come here to edify the brethren (if they so choose to be edified).
The spirit behind your questioning comes off as mockery with the intent to make fools out of people. Like how the Pharisees approached Jesus in their questioning (seeking to catch something out of his mouth that they might accuse him).
I am secure in my faith; if that bothers you, I cannot help that.
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I read this lordship theologie in my mothertongue ( for better understanding ). I cant find that they teach something wrong. If you claim to be a Follower of Christ, but it is not to seen in your Actions, doings and behaviour, I would questioning that you are a Follower of Christ.
What is wrong with it?
). I cant find that they teach something wrong. If you claim to be a Follower of Christ, but it is not to seen in your Actions, doings and behaviour, I would questioning that you are a Follower of Christ.What is wrong with it?
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IS DEMANDING CHRISTIANS TO PROVE THEY HAVE SAVING FAITH WITHOUT STATING A STANDARD TO CHECK FOR COMPLIANCE, MEANINGFUL?
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!
If you say works accompany salvation, its fine. But if you go beyond and say that works prove saving faith, then you have to state the standard of works required to prove one has saving faith or else the standard of proof for having a saving faith becomes subjective and arbitrary to each individual and eventually making no sense except blabbery.
Lordship Salvationists are scared of stating the standard for fear of being exposed they have not met the standard themselves and looking like hypocrites!