THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY
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But I am not spreading false claimes. Is this what you see in your life and the lives of other believesr? ONce saved their propensity is "nothing but" obeying him? If that is so, why did Peter, James, John and Paul write so many letters to the Christians correcting them? Why did the church in Corinth have a really big problem in the area of a particular sin?
There is a disconnect between your theology and the real world. You are not alone. I have met a few posters in my time whose theology bore no resemblence to real life. This means it will be difficult to discuss a matter because I deal in reality. Your answers are likely to be as the first paragraph, we have a propensity to "nothing but obey" Him when one just needs to read posts here and one can see that some are not obeying him without even observing their behavior. Their words alone betray an obvious lack of His Lordship. The theology renders Jesus as Lord unnecessary or "happening anyway" no matter what one does to others.
There is a disconnect between your theology and the real world. You are not alone. I have met a few posters in my time whose theology bore no resemblence to real life. This means it will be difficult to discuss a matter because I deal in reality. Your answers are likely to be as the first paragraph, we have a propensity to "nothing but obey" Him when one just needs to read posts here and one can see that some are not obeying him without even observing their behavior. Their words alone betray an obvious lack of His Lordship. The theology renders Jesus as Lord unnecessary or "happening anyway" no matter what one does to others.
You are terribly mistaken. The standard for works showing that you are saved is not that you have achieved the perfection of Christ. The standard for works showing that you are saved is that the works of the Spirit are ever increasing in your life.
"8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:8-10
People who are changing more and more show themselves to be saved people. Their ever increasing works confirm their calling and election. People who are not changing show themselves to be unsaved people.
This new dead faith movement in the church tries to justify dead faith in the name of grace. Not knowing that dead faith is the sign that a person does not have the grace of God in salvation to begin with. If they did have the grace of God in salvation that grace would be teaching them to say 'no' to ungodliness, not teaching them they can live in ungodliness.
"11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" - Titus 2:11-12
"8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:8-10
People who are changing more and more show themselves to be saved people. Their ever increasing works confirm their calling and election. People who are not changing show themselves to be unsaved people.
This new dead faith movement in the church tries to justify dead faith in the name of grace. Not knowing that dead faith is the sign that a person does not have the grace of God in salvation to begin with. If they did have the grace of God in salvation that grace would be teaching them to say 'no' to ungodliness, not teaching them they can live in ungodliness.
"11For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age" - Titus 2:11-12
Unbelievers do indeed live in sin. They do that because they don't have the Spirit:
Unsaved people live according to the desires of the flesh. That's how we can tell they are not saved.
"14 ...he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." - Hebrews 10:14
Do I need to explain?
Even demons and demon possessed people have confessions of faith:
Does their confession mean they are saved? Obviously not.
If a confession of faith always means a person is saved there would be no such thing as fake brethren.
"...make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:10
According to you, Peter is telling us to walk in the flesh.
"7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you." - Romans 8:7-9
Unsaved people live according to the desires of the flesh. That's how we can tell they are not saved.
"14 ...he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." - Hebrews 10:14
Do I need to explain?
Even demons and demon possessed people have confessions of faith:
"11Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.” - Mark 3:11
"16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” - Acts 16:16-17
"16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” - Acts 16:16-17
Does their confession mean they are saved? Obviously not.
If a confession of faith always means a person is saved there would be no such thing as fake brethren.
"...make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:10
According to you, Peter is telling us to walk in the flesh.
1) As the unbelievers you commit sin as well and follow the desires of your flesh. No difference.
2) Hebrews 10:14 talks about perfection by faith and not by works. You commit sin.
3) The confessions of demons and demon possessed people weren't confessions of faith as both Jesus and Paul rejected them. Confession of faith as per Romans 10:9 leads to salvation.
4) Fake brethren are those who don't admit their evil works are proof for lack of saving faith.
5) Peter never tells you to confirm your saving faith by your works because your works involve evil as well.
2) Hebrews 10:14 talks about perfection by faith and not by works. You commit sin.
3) The confessions of demons and demon possessed people weren't confessions of faith as both Jesus and Paul rejected them. Confession of faith as per Romans 10:9 leads to salvation.
4) Fake brethren are those who don't admit their evil works are proof for lack of saving faith.
5) Peter never tells you to confirm your saving faith by your works because your works involve evil as well.
I suspect you are quoting MacArthur out of context.
John MacArthur is Reformed.
What he believes is that regeneration precedes faith, like all Reformed people. Therefore, God gives the person a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, and the fruit of this new heart is repentance and faith.
Such a person is joined to Jesus in a life-giving union. This union is productive. If the person is attached to the vine, who is Christ, he produces fruit, according to John 15 and many such sections of Scripture.
No-Lordship Salvation denies this fundamentally. Their claim is that someone can be saved, and still remain unregenerate and under the same carnal nature as before. In their worldview, regeneration makes no sense.
Christianity teaches that the person who is saved is united with Christ, and produces spiritual fruit as a result. This is what Scripture teaches.
John MacArthur is simply echoing Scripture. If guys like you misunderstand or deny Scripture, then you do so at your own risk.
James 2 says that works "justify" the person. They do not justify the person in the precise technical sense, as the sinner is justified by faith alone, but regeneration produces good fruit. The No-Lordship Salvation people deny this.
In the USA, this false teaching of No-Lordship salvation is perpetuated by disciples of Zane Hodge and Robert Wilkin, as well as many Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and the Free Grace Movement, as well as Grace Evangelical Society.
Claiming that MacArthur believes the saved person maintains his salvation through works is a lie. He is Reformed. He would believe that the saved person's union with Christ produces good works, but these good works do not maintain their salvation. The lack of good works is indicative of their lack of salvation, though. Someone who does not produce good works over their lifetime is not saved. If they continue onward in an unregenerate spirit, they don't possess salvation, or do they produce good fruit. Rotten trees don't produce good fruit.
John MacArthur is Reformed.
What he believes is that regeneration precedes faith, like all Reformed people. Therefore, God gives the person a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, and the fruit of this new heart is repentance and faith.
Such a person is joined to Jesus in a life-giving union. This union is productive. If the person is attached to the vine, who is Christ, he produces fruit, according to John 15 and many such sections of Scripture.
No-Lordship Salvation denies this fundamentally. Their claim is that someone can be saved, and still remain unregenerate and under the same carnal nature as before. In their worldview, regeneration makes no sense.
Christianity teaches that the person who is saved is united with Christ, and produces spiritual fruit as a result. This is what Scripture teaches.
John MacArthur is simply echoing Scripture. If guys like you misunderstand or deny Scripture, then you do so at your own risk.
James 2 says that works "justify" the person. They do not justify the person in the precise technical sense, as the sinner is justified by faith alone, but regeneration produces good fruit. The No-Lordship Salvation people deny this.
In the USA, this false teaching of No-Lordship salvation is perpetuated by disciples of Zane Hodge and Robert Wilkin, as well as many Independent Fundamentalist Baptists and the Free Grace Movement, as well as Grace Evangelical Society.
Claiming that MacArthur believes the saved person maintains his salvation through works is a lie. He is Reformed. He would believe that the saved person's union with Christ produces good works, but these good works do not maintain their salvation. The lack of good works is indicative of their lack of salvation, though. Someone who does not produce good works over their lifetime is not saved. If they continue onward in an unregenerate spirit, they don't possess salvation, or do they produce good fruit. Rotten trees don't produce good fruit.
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They don't produce spiritual fruit because they haven't been united with Christ.
I think you really need to go back and study regeneration and salvation in general if you are claiming that.
It is true that man can have "civic virtue" but he cannot produce spiritual fruit.
I suggest reading Romans in particular.
To be honest, free-willers, and especially no-Lordship salvation people, have an abominable understanding of salvation in general. That is why they argue about nonsense.
The particular topic they don't understand is union with Christ. Not in the deepest biblical sense anyways.
I think you really need to go back and study regeneration and salvation in general if you are claiming that.
It is true that man can have "civic virtue" but he cannot produce spiritual fruit.
I suggest reading Romans in particular.
To be honest, free-willers, and especially no-Lordship salvation people, have an abominable understanding of salvation in general. That is why they argue about nonsense.
The particular topic they don't understand is union with Christ. Not in the deepest biblical sense anyways.
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By the way, all a person has to do is read John 15 and James 2 to see that the no-Lordship position is unbiblical.
All those who call upon the name of the LORD are pursuing holiness. There is no such thing as a real Christian who does not strive for holiness and wants to please his LORD. If he is not doing this, he is an unbeliever.
Read also 1 John. It gives signs of those who have eternal life. One is that they are pursuing obedience. They may not be perfect at it, but a regenerate nature loves and wants to please God.
No-Lordship Salvation people fundamentally deny this. And, like I said, they do not undestand union with Christ or regeneration. In many cases, I suspect they are just goats posing as Christians.
All those who call upon the name of the LORD are pursuing holiness. There is no such thing as a real Christian who does not strive for holiness and wants to please his LORD. If he is not doing this, he is an unbeliever.
Read also 1 John. It gives signs of those who have eternal life. One is that they are pursuing obedience. They may not be perfect at it, but a regenerate nature loves and wants to please God.
No-Lordship Salvation people fundamentally deny this. And, like I said, they do not undestand union with Christ or regeneration. In many cases, I suspect they are just goats posing as Christians.
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