THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

[lenna]

Because he is committed to false doctrine. Calvinists -- regardless of their faulty theology -- are also children of God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, therefore they will have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit that they are children of God (if indeed they have been saved). They do not have to wait for any length of time to know this. And all genuine Christians will have the same inner witness, as the Bible clearly states.

At the same time, the Bible makes it crystal clear that we are saved "unto good works". Which means that if good works (some of the fruits of the Spirit) are absent, that person is not really saved. And that is exactly what James was talking about.

A lot of people need to carefully study the Westminster Confession of Faith to understand Reformed Theology (which is Calvinist Theology). There is much that is true in that Confession, which is marred by that which is false (e.g. that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation).

Agreed. We know we are saved and even though I do not care for Calvinism I would not state they are not saved...which sadly is more than I have heard from some that have taken the exit (had their bags packed for them)

The 'good works' will be a changed life, a witness for Christ and a desire to please God more than self. Most Christians will not actually do works in the sense of being a Pastor, evangelist, teacher or whatever (there are too many who have not ever been called but are self appointed but that's another thread)

What I have seen, is that people talking past each other are sometimes saying the same thing while refusing to give an inch

I think almost all Christians would agree a changed life does come about with salvation. Mouth service only is not Christianity and I think both sides would agree on that...referring to the not by works thread and similar

one side states you do not have to do works for salvation, it is by grace only and the other side says you have to do works or you are not saved

I think the truth is in the middle. Salvation will incur the good works we have been created to do and those are the works of the Holy Spirit in us and not human good works as an unsaved person will also do good works

but the debate rages on for some nonetheless

 

[lenna]

TULIP0

ok

not TULIPO

just TULIP

for those who are being sincere in their approach, not those who predictably twist and summarize what you did not say or others did not say, but bring up rare and unusual statements that no one lays claim to save the poster who thinks a superior intellect consists of telling everyone else they are wrong, when it is they who are wrong

 

[lenna]

I'm stating what those outside of Calvinism say about the TULIP system . I don't expect calvinists to agree that they are looking to their works or to agree that 'Lordship salvation 'is a problem. I don't even expect non calvinists who don't understand Calvinism to agree either . Hence the reaction im getting from non Calvinists, ironically.

I don't think even your grandmother would believe that one . digging deeper just makes it harder for you to see out

 

[lenna]

throughfaith said:

Then please stop . I think I may need to put you on the ignore list .

why bother

you are already ignoring what myself and others have stated over and over

whatever

Your missing my point . Calvinists believe If you are elected to salvation you cannot be lost . However they can never know ultimately if they are one of those elected to salvation apart from their works .

that is not true

simply not at all true

give it a rest already or use the ignore option. such threatening words. shiver shiver

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why bother

you are already ignoring what myself and others have stated over and over

whatever



that is not true

simply not at all true

give it a rest already or use the ignore option. such threatening words. shiver shiver

Some just can’t see

 

[soberxp]

Submission to the will of God,
first of all,obey god,
The will of God is to save all men
At this point, you need to obey God's will
It's not an option, it's necessary

Submission Christ’s lordship
love eachother
love others as yourself
love your enemy
pray for your enemy

If you do this, you can be regarded as a qualified Christian,and understanding bible well
Besides, you object to one of them, then you are not a friend of Christ.


The First Commandment
obey the will of god, The will of God is to save all men
judgment.lake of fire,etc,These are just the results of bad,It doesn't mean who can't be saved

 

[Deuteronomy]

John Piper .. I saw three things in a fresh light:

1. I saw afresh that the verb, “work out your salvation” (Greek katergazesthe) means produce, or bring about, or effect. And Peter O’Brien in his Philippians commentary sums it up with the phrase “continuous, sustained, strenuous effort.” As dangerous as this language is, it is biblical. “Bring about your salvation.” “Produce your salvation.” “Effect your salvation by continuous, sustained, strenuous, effort.”
( I act the miracle ) ref
Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation is the killing of sin (Romans 8:13) and the pursuit of holiness (Hebrews 12:14). Mortification of sin, sanctification in holiness. But what makes that possible and pleasing to God? We put sin to death and we pursue holiness from a justified position where God is one hundred percent for us — already — by faith alone.
( does God really save us by faith alone by John piper )
What I hear is Perseverance is necessary for final salvation ,but its not our work its God who works in us . But its not passive its synergistic and requires our efforts . Therfore works are necessary for final salvation . I realise its not always presented like this ,but this is essentially what it is .

Hello throughfaith, before I comment I'd like to make sure who I'm addressing, so if it's not too much trouble, which parts of what is written above is Piper's, which part is O'Brien's, and which parts are yours? Actually, if you could just point out yours and Dr. O'Brien's, that would be great (I have a copy of Piper's comments).

Thanks

~Deut
p.s. - in case you are interested, here is an interesting continuation of Piper's, "I saw three things in a fresh light".

​

Fear and Trembling
Why should there be fear and trembling as I attack my sin and bring about salvation from self-pity? The reason given in the text is not a threat. It’s a gift. Work and will to kill your sin, and do it with fear and trembling, because God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, redeemer, justifier, sustainer, Father, lover is so close to you that your working and willing are his working and willing.

Tremble at this breathtaking thought. God Almighty is in you. God is the one in you willing. God is the one in you working. My “continuous, sustained, strenuous” effort is not only being carried out in the very presence of all-holy God, but is the very continuous, sustained, strenuous effort of God himself. I am not waiting for a miracle. I am acting a miracle. My action is God’s action in fighting my sin. My willing is God’s willing.
​

 

[SoulWeaver]

I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up.
I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect, and not someone who will come out from among the elect and not continue in the faith later? What is actually being taught in that regard?

Anyone who shares the beliefs is welcome to answer... @Grandpa @Deuteronomy or others...

I keep thinking that for some, the religious framework of a denomination they encountered, or experiences they had with a specific congregation, might caused them doubts and fears about their own election, and when this happens, people sometimes become bitter and things they say may be a reaction because they're genuinely upset that such a thing happened to them and may happen to others. Then they become overzealous in warning against it, and they genuinely believe it's a righteous cause. That might be what's going on and I think there's a need for forgiveness, and healing...

 

[throughfaith]

Hello throughfaith, before I comment I'd like to make sure who I'm addressing, so if it's not too much trouble, which parts of what is written above is Piper's, which part is O'Brien's, and which parts are yours? Actually, if you could just point out yours and Dr. O'Brien's, that would be great (I have a copy of Piper's comments).

Thanks

~Deut
p.s. - in case you are interested, here is an interesting continuation of Piper's, "I saw three things in a fresh light".

​

Fear and Trembling
Why should there be fear and trembling as I attack my sin and bring about salvation from self-pity? The reason given in the text is not a threat. It’s a gift. Work and will to kill your sin, and do it with fear and trembling, because God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, redeemer, justifier, sustainer, Father, lover is so close to you that your working and willing are his working and willing.

Tremble at this breathtaking thought. God Almighty is in you. God is the one in you willing. God is the one in you working. My “continuous, sustained, strenuous” effort is not only being carried out in the very presence of all-holy God, but is the very continuous, sustained, strenuous effort of God himself. I am not waiting for a miracle. I am acting a miracle. My action is God’s action in fighting my sin. My willing is God’s willing.
​

If I only had your quotes above that would be sufficient. Yes this is what I'm saying . Calvinists are focusing on works as evidence ,which is the focus of perseverance of the saints . And yes they will say it is God working in them as I've said.

 

[throughfaith]

I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up.
I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect, and not someone who will come out from among the elect and not continue in the faith later? What is actually being taught in that regard?

Anyone who shares the beliefs is welcome to answer... @Grandpa @Deuteronomy or others...

I keep thinking that for some, the religious framework of a denomination they encountered, or experiences they had with a specific congregation, might caused them doubts and fears about their own election, and when this happens, people sometimes become bitter and things they say may be a reaction because they're genuinely upset that such a thing happened to them and may happen to others. Then they become overzealous in warning against it, and they genuinely believe it's a righteous cause. That might be what's going on and I think there's a need for forgiveness, and healing...

This is a great point .

 

[Deuteronomy]

I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up. I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect.....

Hello SoulWeaver, the only way that a Calvinist or an Arminian can know if they are numbered among God's elect is, first and foremost, by coming to saving faith in the Lord Jesus.

So the question then becomes (for both Calvinists and Arminians), how can I have assurance that I am truly saved Again (for both Calvinist and Arminian), that evidence comes in many forms. For instance, the inward witness of the Spirit, the change that we see in our desires (and therefore in our choices) to please God and to live for Him (instead of just for ourselves), to not sin like we used to (at least), and to be grieved, repent and seek forgiveness whenever we do (sin), the choice we make to live a holy, rather than a sinful life, etc., and finally, that we persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) until we are on our deathbeds. Even if we walk away and into sin for a time during our lives, the Lord will see all of His true/adopted children/His "elect", safely back to Him before our days are over. We persevere to the end because of Him, because He makes sure that we do .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25.

You might also like to read what The Westminster Confession of Faith has to say about the assurance of salvation, as this (again) is what Calvinism officially teaches and why (at least, in part), if that is what you are interested in knowing.

Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
1. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and estate of salvation,a which hope of theirs shall perish:b yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in a state of grace,c and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.d

a. Deut 29:19; Job 8:13-14; Micah 3:11; John 8:41. • b. Mat 7:22-23. • c. 1 John 2:3; 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 5:13. • d. Rom 5:2, 5.

2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope;a but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,b the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,c the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God:d which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.e

a. Heb 6:11, 19. • b. Heb 6:17-18. • c. 2 Cor 1:12; 2 Pet 1:4-5, 10-11; 1 John 2:3; 3:14. • d. Rom 8:15-16. • e. Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:21-22.

cont............​

 

[Deuteronomy]

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:a yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.b And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure;c that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,d the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.e​

​

a. Psa 88 throughout; Psa 77:1-12; Isa 50:10; Mark 9:24; 1 John 5:13. • b. 1 Cor 2:12; Eph 3:17-19; Heb 6:11-12; 1 John 4:13. • c. 2 Pet 1:10. • d. Rom 5:1-2, 5; 14:17; 15:13; Eph 1:3-4; Psa 4:6-7; 119:32. • e. Psa 130:4; Rom 6:1-2; 8:1, 12; 2 Cor 7:1; Titus 2:11-12, 14; 1 John 1:6-7; 2:1-2; 3:2-3.

4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God’s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:a yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived,b and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.c

a. Psa 31:22; 51:8, 12, 14; 77:1-10; 88 throughout; Song 5:2-3, 6; Isa 50:10; Mat 26:69-72; Eph 4:30-31. • b. Job 13:15; Psa 51:8, 12; 73:15; Isa 50:10; Luke 22:32; 1 John 3:9. • c. Psa 22:1; 88 throughout; Isa 54:7-10; Jer 32:40; Micah 7:7-9.

~The Westminster Confession of Faith
​

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - just FYI, I am part of the Evangelical Free Church of America. Like the SBC (who followed us in this) we hold what might be referred to as an agnostic position (as a denomination) on Calvinism and Arminianism, 1. because we believe that a pretty thorough Biblical defense can be made for both systematic theologies, and 2. because this debate has be raging for hundreds of years and we do not believe the answer will be found (as to which one is true) in this life.

Interestingly, we stopped having the kind of infighting that we see around here (between Arminians and Calvinists), and are having productive discussions now instead (most times anyway ). Most in my church are pretty well versed about what is actually taught on both sides now, as they are free to chose (as they believe the Lord is leading them) between Arminianism and Calvinism (and just FYI, both our pastorate and our elder board are split 50/50 right now between the two systematic theologies, and no problems have arisen as a result .. so far ).

1 John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may 'know' that you have eternal life.
​

 

[Deuteronomy]

If I only had your quotes above that would be sufficient. Yes this is what I'm saying . Calvinists are focusing on works as evidence ,which is the focus of perseverance of the saints . And yes they will say it is God working in them as I've said.

I have more that I'd like to ask you/talk to you about, but I'm afraid that it's going to have to wait until later, as I've gotta go right now. Talk to you then (Dv).

~Deut

 

[throughfaith]

I have more that I'd like to ask you/talk to you about, but I'm afraid that it's going to have to wait until later, as I've gotta go right now. Talk to you then (Dv).

~Deut

I appreciate your respectful and considered responses .
I looked at your response earlier : /////
So the question then becomes (for both Calvinists and Arminians), how can I have assurance that I am truly saved Again (for both Calvinist and Arminian), that evidence comes in many forms. For instance, the inward witness of the Spirit, the change that we see in our desires (and therefore in our choices) to please God and to live for Him (instead of just for ourselves), to not sin like we used to (at least), and to be grieved, repent and seek forgiveness whenever we do (sin), the choice we make to live a holy, rather than a sinful life, etc., and finally, that we persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) ///until we are on our deathbeds. Even if we walk away and into sin for a time during our lives, the Lord will see all of His true/adopted children/His "elect", safely back to Him before our days are over. We persevere to the end because of Him, because He makes sure that we do .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-////_

Just some points of discussion.
I appreciated you highlighting that you are referring to ' Calvinism and Arminism ' . For me I see them as similar in many ways ( essentially it's a ' in house ' debate but they both come from the same arena.
I contend both systems ( calvinism and Armins ) are both teaching error on Lordship salvation . I agree with your first point about the 'inner witness 'if you mean ' 4For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: ( rom 8 )
what would be the verses that say or speak on /////the change that we see in our desires (and therefore in our choices) to please God and to live for Him (instead of just for ourselves), to not sin like we used to (at least), and to be grieved, repent and seek forgiveness whenever we do (sin), the choice we make to live a holy, rather than a sinful life, etc., and finally, that we persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) //// I get that I can read the west minster confession ect but of course that is a system not the bible ( I appreciate Calvinists believe that confessions are helpful and are based on the bible . From my position I'm just seeing ' Perseverance the saints 'the doctrine . And 'Lordship salvation '.
Especially when you say // until we are on our deathbeds. Even if we walk away and into sin for a time during our lives, the Lord will see all of His true/adopted children/His "elect", safely back to Him before our days are over. We persevere to the end because of Him, because He makes sure that we do .. e.g. 1 /// This would be my point of contention ,and where I would see the issues of Lordship salvation come in . We should recognise listening to Calvinst preachers the emphasis they are placing on fruit , works , enduring , persevering, ect ( especially from Paul washer and John piper , nearly weeping and with such zeal about sin and the believers perseverance and such ,and marvel when they hold to 'Election to salvation ' . They sound like the Arminian who is doing the same . What gives? why is an elect person so caught up on sin , persevering in good works, enduring ect when all is well with an 'elect '? why ? because they don't know . Jesus did not die for everyone , Jesus did not raise for everyone..It wasn't their faith that believed according to the system .How could they know they are not the one who God has detemined to be a reprobate ?
How I would answer 'how can we know '? is by the scriptures and not on my 'Election ' or my performance , works , perseverance or endurance . All of which the Mormons , Jehovah witnesses ect would put us to shame on .
1 John 5 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[SoulWeaver]

@Deuteronomy I just want to say that I really appreciated you taking time for a thorough response. It was read very carefully. I will respond with more words tomorrow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up.
I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect, and not someone who will come out from among the elect and not continue in the faith later? What is actually being taught in that regard?

Anyone who shares the beliefs is welcome to answer... @Grandpa @Deuteronomy or others...

I keep thinking that for some, the religious framework of a denomination they encountered, or experiences they had with a specific congregation, might caused them doubts and fears about their own election, and when this happens, people sometimes become bitter and things they say may be a reaction because they're genuinely upset that such a thing happened to them and may happen to others. Then they become overzealous in warning against it, and they genuinely believe it's a righteous cause. That might be what's going on and I think there's a need for forgiveness, and healing...

I think all of us. Whether we believe in tulip or not rest our assurance on Christ and his promises. Not in how good we are or how faithful we will be. If we rely on self. That is no assurance at all. That is why those who tend to look towards self tend to believe salvation can be lost. I know I have heard grandpa and others say this also

 

[Grandpa]

I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up.
I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect, and not someone who will come out from among the elect and not continue in the faith later? What is actually being taught in that regard?

Anyone who shares the beliefs is welcome to answer... @Grandpa @Deuteronomy or others...

I keep thinking that for some, the religious framework of a denomination they encountered, or experiences they had with a specific congregation, might caused them doubts and fears about their own election, and when this happens, people sometimes become bitter and things they say may be a reaction because they're genuinely upset that such a thing happened to them and may happen to others. Then they become overzealous in warning against it, and they genuinely believe it's a righteous cause. That might be what's going on and I think there's a need for forgiveness, and healing...

I was saved by the Lord Jesus Christ before I started studying Salvation and theology.

It was by the scriptures being opened to me AFTER Salvation and study and prayer that I came to understand the tenets of Calvinism and later TULIP.

I know I am saved. And I know it was the Lord who saved me. Not my intellect. Not my wisdom. Not my great ability at making choices.

A "tulip" believer understands that perseverance is given by God and won't be taken away. Salvation is Gods gift and as such is irrevocable.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


I don't really have any emotional attachment to Calvinism or TULIP. I view them as a way to understand Salvation and theology. I don't have any problems with the way it is presented or the scripture that supports it. If a better theology comes out with better scripture support I am happy to entertain it.

 

[EleventhHour]

I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up.
I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect, and not someone who will come out from among the elect and not continue in the faith later? What is actually being taught in that regard?

Anyone who shares the beliefs is welcome to answer... @Grandpa @Deuteronomy or others...

I keep thinking that for some, the religious framework of a denomination they encountered, or experiences they had with a specific congregation, might caused them doubts and fears about their own election, and when this happens, people sometimes become bitter and things they say may be a reaction because they're genuinely upset that such a thing happened to them and may happen to others. Then they become overzealous in warning against it, and they genuinely believe it's a righteous cause. That might be what's going on and I think there's a need for forgiveness, and healing...

See the difficulty is lines like this interspersed in their explanations.

"And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure"

Assurance of salvation comes from the promises of God and they are recorded in His word and the spirit testifying to our Spirit.
The doctrine of OSAS does not hinge on any future performance, whereas the doctrine of "perseverance" does.
OSAS the person is saved period when justified, there is no conflating of discipleship and sanctification with justification.

To understand the tenets of TULIP one must go back to the author of the doctrine John Calvin, his understanding of scripture, who he was as a man and what influenced him.... the Westminster Confession just codified it.

 

[lenna]

Your missing my point . Calvinists believe If you are elected to salvation you cannot be lost . However they can never know ultimately if they are one of those elected to salvation apart from their works .

once again, this is not true

you do not understand anything apart from your own ideas about it and those ideas are wrong

a Calvinist, as has been proven mulitple times by even Calvinists on this site, believe they are saved, expect to stay saved and believe God keeps them

and you are supplying wrong answers to people. they need to back up and read what has been written by actual Calvinists and that includes sites run by Calvinists

 

[EleventhHour]

@SoulWeaver

I think also if we look at the Canons of Dort we can see why @throughfaith is making this assertion.

Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort
This is Reformed Theology
........the difficulty is they will turn around and also state it is all God's work as well.

In essence assurance is placed on a very unbalanced ground.

"Looking to oneself" for evidence/assurance is very prevalent in many teachers who lean towards Calvinism or who are Five Point Calvinists.