The Logic of Gay Marriage Equality

[Traderjane]

Hello!

I am going to try to answer the original question on this thread to the best of my ability. The argument you raise, namely that homosexuals are not facing discrimintation becuase they have all the same rights as hetereosexuals, specificallly the right to marry someone of the oppositite gender, has been addressed previously by the supreme court in the case of Loving v. Virginia. In that case, the court adressed the legality of state's miscegenation laws. The argument there was that there was no discrimination becuase everyone had the same rights. Everyone had the same right to marry somone of his or her own race. The court rejected this argument and ruled that freedom of marriage was one of the fundamental human rights in a civil society and could not be restricted on the basis of race. The basic idea is that the government may not restrict a basic human right without a legitimate compelling state interest and none could be found here.

I fully understand that the issues are different in the case of homosexualy. I'm not raising this case to argue the point, but only to address your original question which was how homosexuals can claim to be denied a right. When and if this case goes before the Supreme Court, the argument will almost certainly turn on whether the state has a legimitate interest to regulate here and not whether rights are being denied.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

15 responses and 92 views in only 4 hours? Wow, you guys are fast! But seriously, I appreciate all the posts in this thread. Thank you Age of Knowledge and Credo ut Intelligam for your strong and helpful insights. Very informative! And Shard, even though you and I have different views on the role homosexuality should be allowed to play in society, I do appreciate your contributions and sharing your thoughts on the matter. In regards to Ricke's post, were you referring to me Ricke? If you were I am afraid you may have misunderstood my position. I was not stating that gay marriage equality actually is logical, I was trying to demonstrate it is not logical at all. I am against gay marriage. I apologize if my position was not clear enough in my post. Did anyone else misunderstand my main point and my position?

I was hoping that in this particular thread we could zero in on the one fundamental argument the homosexual movement uses to try to win public sentiment and to attain marriage rights; and that is the argument they use in demanding to be treated "equally" with heterosexuals concerning marriage. If you agree with me (or I should say with Thomas Schmidt, since it was his argument I was expounding) that homosexuals actually already have the same marriage right as heterosexuals (that one "right" as being able to marry any adult female not in immediate relation) than their claim of being treated unequally fails.

Simply put, if someone is to claim that heterosexuals have more marriage rights than homosexuals do, then I need to hear what those specific rights are. I have not yet heard them stated by any proponent of homosexuality. The only response I get is the claim that "heterosexuals can marry anyone, but homosexuals can't marry at all." But as I attempted to demonstrate in my original post, heterosexuals are actually extremely limited by law regarding who they can and cannot marry. And the one marriage right heterosexuals do have (as stated above) has always been available to homosexuals as well.

So where then is the inequality that the homosexual movement is decrying? If Schmidt's argument stands (and I believe it does) than the homosexual movement is either knowingly or unknowingly demanding not "equal" rights, but what is referred to in ethics as "super-uber" rights. These are rights that no group in a society possess and then one group stands up and demands that non-existent right for itself. That is precisely what the homosexual movement is doing. When a homosexual man says he wants the right to marry another man and so be equal with heterosexuals, he fails to understand that heterosexuals don't have (nor ever had) the right to marry another man. Therefore the definition of "equality" used by the homosexual movement not only fails logically, it doesn't even make sense. It is in reality an incoherent argument.

I was hoping some of you guys could comment (either pro or con) on this argument against the homosexual's fundamental use of the word "equality" in connection to heterosexual marriage rights.

It is late here in Toronto (12:25am) so I am off to bed. Take care for now and God bless you all.

Your brother in Christ, Matthew

Sorry, guess I didn't address the question in your post.

I think a pro-homosexual might say it is unfair in this manner:

It is true that all persons have the option of marrying an adult of the opposite sex. However, this law gives normal heterosexuals the option to marry at least some of the persons that are in their range of desires. The homosexual on the other hand doesn't have the option to marry any person within their range of desires.

So the law favors those who desire to marry adult persons of the opposite sex.

But while this objection might be true, it proves too much. The pedophile and the person who favors bestiality can use the same argument to say that they should have marriage rights. The person who is a pedophile doesn't have the option to marry any person within their range of desires either and the person who practices bestiality doesn't have the option to marry any creature within their range of desires.

So if this objection successfully argues for the legalization of gay marriage then it also successfully argues for the legalization of marriages between, say, a 50 year old man and a 10 year old consenting girl and a man and his goat.

 

[Ricke]

Shard
So are you speaking as a Christian or from a Worldly Thinking perspective.?

As a Christian I could never support Gay Marriage, for the Simple reason it is a total Abomination unto God. They can sugar coat it anyway they want, but God still hates it, and will not compromise on this issue.same thing regarding Abortion.Simply put it is Murder legalized.

In The Bible the Children of Israel would offer their babies as a sacrifice tooThe god of Molech. Thrown into a fire!

Homosexuals are unsaved sinners I don't care what "Christian Church" they claim to attend. Read: Romans 1 v 26-32.

 

[Ricke]

****** last remark should have posted on another thread, excuse pleas******

 

[Shard]

Shard
So are you speaking as a Christian or from a Worldly Thinking perspective.?

As a Christian I could never support Gay Marriage, for the Simple reason it is a total Abomination unto God. They can sugar coat it anyway they want, but God still hates it, and will not compromise on this issue.same thing regarding Abortion.Simply put it is Murder legalized.

In The Bible the Children of Israel would offer their babies as a sacrifice tooThe god of Molech. Thrown into a fire!

Homosexuals are unsaved sinners I don't care what "Christian Church" they claim to attend. Read: Romans 1 v 26-32.

I guess you missed the part where i said Im wouldnt vote against it or go to support rallies for it. I really dont care if gay people get married. It does nothing to me. It affects me in 0 ways. It doesnt offend me. I simply dont care. Why people spend so much time on topics like this versus actually you know trying to win people to christ is beyond my understanding. But whatever.

 

[Descyple]

Greetings Traderjane and Credo. Thank you for responding to my posts. I apologize if I sounded "too picky" for narrowing down the discussion to one single point (I am still relatively new to posting in threads here). Traderjane I will definitely look into the court case Loving vs Virginia, thank you for bringing it to my attention. And Credo I completely agree with you that the legitimizing of homosexual marriage will inevitably lead to the legitimizing all of sorts of harmful relationships.

Especially with regards to your point of pedophiles using precisely the same arguments the homosexual movement has been using for themselves. In his book "The Gay Gospel - How Pro Gay Advocates Misread the Bible" former homosexual-turned Christian minister Joe Dallas devotes a chapter to demonstrating the parallel arguments between homosexuals and arguments pedophile organizations (such as NAMBLA - the North American Man-Boy Love Association) are now using. For example, Dr. Deryck Calderwood, chairman of SIECUS (Sex Information and Education Council of the US) stated, "When no one gives a child a bad consciene... intercourse between adults and children causes no mental harm." And Douglas Powell, psychologist at Harvard Health Services, stated "I have not seen anyone harmed by this child/adult sex so long as it occurs in a relationship with somebody who really cares about the child."

If Joe Dallas' sources and quotes are indeed accurate, that would be one absolutely scary reality. Once the "professional" pedophiles begin publically demanding their rights to have sex with children, it will be interesting to see if the homosexual movement will speak out against them, or remain silent knowing their very own arguments are being used to legitimize another form of sexuality. But perhaps a separate thread should be started to discuss the link or non-link between homosexuality and pedophilia. So I will end this post for now.

Thank you again Traderjane and Credo for your contributions and concerns regarding this issue.

Your brother in Christ, Matthew

 

[Crypto]

I guess you missed the part where i said Im wouldnt vote against it or go to support rallies for it. I really dont care if gay people get married. It does nothing to me. It affects me in 0 ways. It doesnt offend me. I simply dont care. Why people spend so much time on topics like this versus actually you know trying to win people to christ is beyond my understanding. But whatever.

Shard: How many people have you won to Christ this week?

 

[Shard]

Lets see judging by the fact that Im on vacation and have only hung out with Christian friends none. But then I didnt know it was contest. Thought it sure seems like it should be our focus instead of forcing our beliefs on people that dont care.

Not to mention basic rights like who to love should be legislated by no one. If its their choice then let them do it. They arent hurting you.

 

[Crypto]

Lets see judging by the fact that Im on vacation and have only hung out with Christian friends none. But then I didnt know it was contest. Thought it sure seems like it should be our focus instead of forcing our beliefs on people that dont care.

Shard: How many people in your life have you won to Christ?

 

[Shard]

That doesnt really have an affect on the conversation and is none of your business...the number of people you win doesnt determine you seniority or authority. Comparing numbers if anything lowers YOU to being an arrogant prideful sinner. Which makes you no better than the "sins of the gays" you detest so much.

 

[forerunner]

That doesnt really have an affect on the conversation and is none of your business...the number of people you win doesnt determine you seniority or authority. Comparing numbers if anything lowers YOU to being an arrogant prideful sinner. Which makes you no better than the "sins of the gays" you detest so much.

Of course we (true believers) detest the ''sins of gays, God says in Romans 1 that they are worthy of death as well as those that approve of their lifestyle. Do you approve of their lifestyle shard, or do you hate what God hates?

 

[AliceOfLegend]

Some Christians are to involved in others personal lives. leave them alone. If you think they are going to hell, thats great, good for you. they are not hurting you. So just leave them alone. People need to realize there are always going to be things going on in the world that you don't like. People need to grow up and start acting like adults and realize, we are not all the same.

 

[forerunner]

Some Christians are to involved in others personal lives. leave them alone. If you think they are going to hell, thats great, good for you. they are not hurting you. So just leave them alone. People need to realize there are always going to be things going on in the world that you don't like. People need to grow up and start acting like adults and realize, we are not all the same.

It doesn't hurt you to know that people are going to Hell? Is it not God will that you at least attempt to tell them the truth?

 

[Shard]

It doesn't hurt you to know that people are going to Hell? Is it not God will that you at least attempt to tell them the truth?

I have friends that are gay and they know what the bible says but they dont really care. Im still friends with them, they're still people. So then whats your suggestion?

 

[Crypto]

That doesnt really have an affect on the conversation and is none of your business...the number of people you win doesnt determine you seniority or authority. Comparing numbers if anything lowers YOU to being an arrogant prideful sinner. Which makes you no better than the "sins of the gays" you detest so much.

The numbers don't matter but Christians should bear fruit. If you don't bear fruit, you're not a Christian. Do you bear fruit Shard?

 

[AliceOfLegend]

Sorry, I'm pansexual, though I'm engaged to a man, that doesn't change my sexuality. I'm not going to tell others who they are allowed to love.

 

[Crypto]

Of course we (true believers) detest the ''sins of gays, God says in Romans 1 that they are worthy of death as well as those that approve of their lifestyle. Do you approve of their lifestyle shard, or do you hate what God hates?

I think the emphasis should be true believers. Jesus said the true disciples would abide in His word.

7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. John 15:7-8

31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Those who don't abide in His word aren't true disciples/believers.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Not to mention basic rights like who to love should be legislated by no one. If its their choice then let them do it. They arent hurting you.

The Bible instructs us not to be deceived by the lies of the devil Shard who "disguises himself as an angel of light." -2 Corinthians 11:14 NASB. Scripture reveals true love (e.g. God's agape love), is sacricial and does not lend itself to gross sexual immorality. If they loved each other with God's true love, they would not want to engage in degrading sexual immoral acts with each other which affects the very imago dei in them causing personality changes and spiritual depravity, bondage, demonic oppression, and for the worst of the worst there comes the danger of reprobation (Romans 1:26-27).

What you have called love is really not God's love. "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming." -Colossians 3:5-6.

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you." -1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

The devil's desire is to transform American sexual socio-societal standards, which have their moral basis in God the moral lawgiver, into those of the demonically perverted ancient Greek and Roman pagan practices first deceiving and then destroying and many will die in that state that otherwise would not have and suffer eternal punishment.

Have you never read Matthew 12:30, "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

You Shard are not on God's side in this matter though you are, in fact, saved by God's grace yourself.

 

[AliceOfLegend]

The Bible instructs us not to be deceived by the lies of the devil Shard who "disguises himself as an angel of light." -2 Corinthians 11:14 NASB. Scripture reveals true love (e.g. God's agape love), is sacricial and does not lend itself to gross sexual immorality. If they loved each other with God's true love, they would not want to engage in degrading sexual immoral acts with each other which affects the very imago dei in them causing personality changes and spiritual depravity, bondage, demonic oppression, and for the worst of the worst there comes the danger of reprobation (Romans 1:26-27).

What you have called love is really not God's love. "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming." -Colossians 3:5-6.

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you." -1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

The devil's disire is to transform American sexual socio-societal standards, which have their moral basis in God the moral lawgiver, into those of the demonically perverted ancient Greek and Roman pagan practices first deceiving and then destroying many will die in that state.

Have you never read Matthew 12:30, "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."

You Shard are not on God's side in this matter though you are, in fact, saved by God's grace yourself.

And you my friend are in no area of authority to decide that.

 

[lil-rush]

And you my friend are in no area of authority to decide that.

Technically, the verse he pointed out does lend credit to his assertion that Shard is not on God's side in this matter. Matthew 12:30