The MAIN "Divider" Of denominations!

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Does God Require His OT "ritual" of water baptism, for us, Today, Under HIS PURE GRACE?


  • Total voters
    11

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
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#41
This is where I first ran across this translation of Acts 2:38. Since then I have cross referenced the meanings of the words and haven’t been able to prove this wrong. Then I found the CJB translation of the Bible which translates Acts 2:38 in essentially the same way. So he isn’t the only person who sees it this way. Very interested to hear if anyone can show this to be wrong.

http://www.wiebefamily.org/Acts_2-38_baptism.htm
I suggest you do a bible search of every form of the word baptism. You will find that it is connected with repentance and remission of sin. And in each example of actual water baptisms something is consistent. They are all done in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
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#42
Your first sentence about the Jews being told to be water baptized is what I was commenting on. The article lays out a reason to doubt that actual water baptisms took place with the 3000 on Pentecost because it would have violated the restrictions on doing any customary work on Pentecost. Remember how the Jews took issue with Jesus in John 5 for telling a man to take up his bed. It seems unlikely that they would have allowed anyone to violate the work rules on Pentecost by baptizing 3000 people. It’s another reason why the baptisms on Pentecost could have been immersions into forgiveness of sins and not immersions into water.

Acts 1:8 tells us that the Apostles had to be the witnesses in Samaria. So yes, that appears to be transitional.

“He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:7-8‬ ‭ESV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/59/act.1.7-8.esv
The Apostles are still witnessing to the ends of the earth concerning the need for all to obey. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16)

So Jesus said to those who believed in him, “If you obey my teaching, you are really my disciples; you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,535
854
113
#43
Hello @GRACE_ambassador, God commanded us to baptize (and to be baptized .. Jesus was .. e.g. Matthew 3:13-17), and it's clear that the Apostles/the early church, and new believers in the early church, did so (and knowing that is plenty for me to believe that water baptism* is something that Christians/the church should continue to practice).

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - as the Lord Jesus told us (just before His Ascension):


Matthew 28
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
Mark 16
15 “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation.
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


*(for clarity's sake, I do not believe that the waters of baptism are salvific)
.
I believe that there is a deliverance (salvation) in being baptized, but it is not an eternal deliverance.
 
Feb 11, 2020
98
38
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#44
In Luke 24:47 Jesus states that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in his name beginning in Jerusalem. This occurred when Peter said EVERYONE was to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sin. Keep in mind that John the Baptist introduced water baptism for repentance. However, after Jesus death, burial and resurrection water baptism was to be administered in his name. Acts 19:1-6 states this specifically. Paul tells the Ephesus disciples that were water baptized by John the Baptist that they had to be re-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. After complying Paul lays hands on them in order that they receive the Holy Ghost as well.

The exchange between Peter and Cornelius connects forgiveness of sins with Jesus' name as well. Peter's comment is true. Everyone who believes in Jesus will in fact receive forgiveness of their sins through Jesus name; in water baptism.
P75, Sinaiticus, and Vaticanus all have eis in them. Eis actually means into.

μετάνοιαν εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν

A change of mind into forgiveness of sins.
 

Jocund

Active member
Jan 14, 2021
340
103
43
#45
Water baptism was changed to the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in 325 A.D. From biblical times, until then, water baptism was only administered in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a well known fact as recorded in many historical encyclopedias. The Roman Catholic Church admits that it's forerunners made the change. Also, they currently have a list of all their supposed "daughter" churches that comply with their form of water baptism.

The word states that everything done in word and deed should be done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Good post but one question:
"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" - 1 Cor 10:2 KJV

Was this baptism unto Moses figurative?
 

Tararose

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2020
586
461
63
Uk
www.101christiansocialnetwork.com
#46
There is a divide which many believe occurs in acts, and that the Old Testament does not end until after the gospels. I can understand why the op called it an OT ritual, as it is not in occurrence much after that point and seems to dominate the ministry of John the baptist, Christ, and Christs disciples to the jews. To debate on this opens a much larger topic of why Jesus said such things as 'I came only for the house of Israel'. John the baptist made it clear that He baptised with Water but the one to come would baptise in the Spirit, so it is not as black and white as we would like to think. Thankfully baptism doesn't save us, and either way we can be at peace with one another in Christ's love whatever stance we take on this issue.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,762
4,880
113
#47
John the Baptist introduced the NT water baptism. However, water baptisms were to be administered in the name of the Lord Jesus after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Luke 24:47) Upon obedience believers are spiritually buried with the Lord Jesus in water baptism as mandated by God.
Read the Old TEstament, that comoopilation of the Torah, the Writings and the Prophets...
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
594
121
43
#48
The biggest confusion is a misappropriation of Acts 2.38 . So many denominations think this verse is the plan of salvation today .

The Corinthians were not Jews and Paul states:
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
Paul is telling them they're to be Baptized into the Name of the One whom was Crucified.

Clearly the Corinthians, GENTILES, were also being Baptized According to Peter in Acts 2:38.

I am not debating here about which Baptism Formula is correct. I am pointing out, for you to think [only the Jews] in Acts were being Baptized in Name of Yeshua, is the furthest from the TRUTH! The entire New Testament from Acts to every Nation outside of Israel was Being Baptized in the Name of Yeshua. Which means, the majority of (the Gentiles) Baptized, were being Baptized Acts 2:38.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
5,497
1,682
113
#49
The Corinthians were not Jews and Paul states:
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
Paul is telling them they're to be Baptized into the Name of the One whom was Crucified.

Clearly the Corinthians, GENTILES, were also being Baptized According to Peter in Acts 2:38.

I am not debating here about which Baptism Formula is correct. I am pointing out, for you to think [only the Jews] in Acts were being Baptized in Name of Yeshua, is the furthest from the TRUTH! The entire New Testament from Acts to every Nation outside of Israel was Being Baptized in the Name of Yeshua. Which means, the majority of (the Gentiles) Baptized, were being Baptized Acts 2:38.
When Christ brought baptism up from being baptized with water to being baptized with the Holy Spirit, our God does not or never has asked anyone if they are Jewish or gentile before they are baptized.
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
594
121
43
#50
When Christ brought baptism up from being baptized with water to being baptized with the Holy Spirit, our God does not or never has asked anyone if they are Jewish or gentile before they are baptized.
First of all, I am not promoting anything here, only using Scripture from Paul's own writing to show how he was Teaching. Personally, the Thief upon the Cross was never water Baptized nor Baptized in the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit had not entered the scene yet. All the thief did was confess that Christ was innocent and he was not. That was a direct line from creation to Creator that I am a sinner and you are with me hanging when you're innocent. That's as good of a confession as it gets.

But if there was ever an issue based upon how to be Water Baptized according to Formula, Paul spells it out very plainly, be Baptized in the Name of the One Who was Crucified for you/me/everyone.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
113
#51
And Paul, and the Gentiles, and the Samaritans, and the Ephesian disciples. Every recorded water baptism was done in the name of the Lord Jesus:

Acts 2:38-39 (Jewish)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans-half jewish-half gentile)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


Acts 10:44-48 (Gentiles)
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11:13-14
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.


Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name)
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
You missed some details there. Acts 2.38 Peter specifically says to those Jews to be baptised in order to recieve the Holy Spirit . In Acts 8 those Samaritans needed ' laying on of hands ' to
The Corinthians were not Jews and Paul states:
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
Paul is telling them they're to be Baptized into the Name of the One whom was Crucified.

Clearly the Corinthians, GENTILES, were also being Baptized According to Peter in Acts 2:38.

I am not debating here about which Baptism Formula is correct. I am pointing out, for you to think [only the Jews] in Acts were being Baptized in Name of Yeshua, is the furthest from the TRUTH! The entire New Testament from Acts to every Nation outside of Israel was Being Baptized in the Name of Yeshua. Which means, the majority of (the Gentiles) Baptized, were being Baptized Acts 2:38.
My point isn't 'baptism '. My point is the order in Acts 2.38 and Acts 8 and many other places in Acts ,with its 29 conversion accounts . Look at Eph 1.13 .
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#52
Je
There is a divide which many believe occurs in acts, and that the Old Testament does not end until after the gospels. I can understand why the op called it an OT ritual, as it is not in occurrence much after that point and seems to dominate the ministry of John the baptist, Christ, and Christs disciples to the jews. To debate on this opens a much larger topic of why Jesus said such things as 'I came only for the house of Israel'. John the baptist made it clear that He baptised with Water but the one to come would baptise in the Spirit, so it is not as black and white as we would like to think. Thankfully baptism doesn't save us, and either way we can be at peace with one another in Christ's love whatever stance we take on this issue.
Jesus himself said, he who believes and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Mark 16:16
 

AandW

Active member
Jun 9, 2021
594
121
43
#53
You missed some details there. Acts 2.38 Peter specifically says to those Jews to be baptised in order to recieve the Holy Spirit . In Acts 8 those Samaritans needed ' laying on of hands ' to

My point isn't 'baptism '. My point is the order in Acts 2.38 and Acts 8 and many other places in Acts ,with its 29 conversion accounts . Look at Eph 1.13 .
Good stuff!
I agree with You!
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#54
I believe that there is a deliverance (salvation) in being baptized, but it is not an eternal deliverance.
Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:3-5) Many state this scripture does not pertain to water baptism. However, throughout scripture both water baptism in Jesus' name and being filled with the Holy Ghost are recorded as part of the NT spiritual rebirth.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#55
P75, Sinaiticus, and Vaticanus all have eis in them. Eis actually means into.

μετάνοιαν εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν

A change of mind into forgiveness of sins.
Scripture records a connection between remission of sin and one's obedience to the command to be water baptized in Jesus' name. This is seen in Ananias instruction to the Apostle Paul as well, "For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#56
The biggest confusion is a misappropriation of Acts 2.38 . So many denominations think this verse is the plan of salvation today .
What makes you think it is not?
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#57
There is a divide which many believe occurs in acts, and that the Old Testament does not end until after the gospels. I can understand why the op called it an OT ritual, as it is not in occurrence much after that point and seems to dominate the ministry of John the baptist, Christ, and Christs disciples to the jews. To debate on this opens a much larger topic of why Jesus said such things as 'I came only for the house of Israel'. John the baptist made it clear that He baptised with Water but the one to come would baptise in the Spirit, so it is not as black and white as we would like to think. Thankfully baptism doesn't save us, and either way we can be at peace with one another in Christ's love whatever stance we take on this issue.
The New Testament would understandably begin after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. A Testament comes into effect after a person dies.

Water baptisms are mentioned throughout Acts and Paul's epistles. The only difference from John the Baptist introduction of it was it was modified to include the usage of Jesus' name in connection with His sacrifice and resurrection.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#58
Good post but one question:
"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;" - 1 Cor 10:2 KJV

Was this baptism unto Moses figurative?
See post #21
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#59
You missed some details there. Acts 2.38 Peter specifically says to those Jews to be baptised in order to recieve the Holy Spirit . In Acts 8 those Samaritans needed ' laying on of hands ' to

My point isn't 'baptism '. My point is the order in Acts 2.38 and Acts 8 and many other places in Acts ,with its 29 conversion accounts .Ye Look at Eph 1.13 .
The scripture you reference states one was sealed after believing something. (Eph 1:13)

That something was the word of truth, the gospel of salvation. Consider that is exactly what the Apostle Peter's instructions entailed.
After Peter spoke of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection the crowd believed him and obeyed the word of truth, in fact the gospel of salvation: they repented, got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. The scripture goes on to state that 3,000 were saved that day alone.

Acts 2:40-41
"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."


The same components (belief, repentance, water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost) were required of individuals, Gentiles, Samaritans and Jews. These are detailed in many other examples recorded in the Gospels, Acts and Paul's Epistles.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
2,368
598
113
#60
The Corinthians were not Jews and Paul states:
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
Paul is telling them they're to be Baptized into the Name of the One whom was Crucified.

Clearly the Corinthians, GENTILES, were also being Baptized According to Peter in Acts 2:38.

I am not debating here about which Baptism Formula is correct. I am pointing out, for you to think [only the Jews] in Acts were being Baptized in Name of Yeshua, is the furthest from the TRUTH! The entire New Testament from Acts to every Nation outside of Israel was Being Baptized in the Name of Yeshua. Which means, the majority of (the Gentiles) Baptized, were being Baptized Acts 2:38.
Paul knew of the need to be water baptized in the name of Jesus because Ananias commanded he do it as well:

Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.