The Market Driven Church
- Thread starter Lancelot
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hey, YOU did the cutting and gouging..... all I did was make sure you knew Jesus said that so you would be impressed with my "knowledge" and then might get scared at the power I wield in my condemnation of you. Ain't my fault you saw Jesus as a monster out to "get you" from the black paint I used to paint His picture for you.
Say.......... this "hell-mongering" is exhilarating. I'm beginning to see why you guys like doing it. Where's my sword?
Say.......... this "hell-mongering" is exhilarating. I'm beginning to see why you guys like doing it. Where's my sword?
Must be on everyone's ignore list ....... crickets....
Any Who..... We are all sinners the good news is Jesus died to save all of us sinners. God's Holy Spirit leads us once we accept the gift of salvation Jesus hands out to us and helps us to grow as Christians. God leads us into the truth as we seek Him. That is good news that Jesus Saves....
Why do we humans get in God's way?
PS Best teacher I have ever had is the Holy Spirit.....
Any Who..... We are all sinners the good news is Jesus died to save all of us sinners. God's Holy Spirit leads us once we accept the gift of salvation Jesus hands out to us and helps us to grow as Christians. God leads us into the truth as we seek Him. That is good news that Jesus Saves....
Why do we humans get in God's way?
PS Best teacher I have ever had is the Holy Spirit.....
Last edited:
L
I've actually been around the block a few times in life too and am aware how many different churches there are. But I'm not sure you understand how each one has it's own style of effecting their communities. A Pastor like Joel O. will minister differently in his church than like say a pastor in a small home town church of a few hundred who have the ability to know each member personally.
I've gone to huge churches where there are so many believers that the church leadership had to be really good at teaching their leaders how to train and teach more people and they became leaders and taught others how to do the same and on through to a chain reaction. That is how you do it in a huge church. And it works beautifully.. as time is allowed.
Great patience is observed by the many godly men and women in leadership as new believers become part of small group Bible studies from different classes the church offers. You come in for Sunday school and you are impressed with the wonderful teachers in the class you chose (out of 10 class topics) to attend. You begin to see how people know one another and are eager to have you join in yet they are not pushy or bossy but friendly and confident in their walk with Jesus. You notice how that confidence makes them free to love you even as a stranger in their class. As you come each week you see the same people and begin to make friends and go to one of the 3 or 4 different home Bible studies other members host in their homes from that class.
A good church no matter what it's size knows how to train their leadership to value Christ's love above all else when dealing with people. These amazing leaders are in agreement and walk in this terrific fellowship of brothers and sisters in Christ.
They understand and know how not to expect a baby in Christ to grow a full long 'beard' of spiritual maturity. Like God does with us they show great love and patience with young believers. Even when the 'youngsters' are acting like know it all teenagers and although they don't understand all the doctrines of the Bible, they are learning.
The problem with your approach Galahad and others who say "we must preach truth above all else" is it doesn't allow the youngsters to learn how to drink the milk before you are force feeding large portions of meat into their mouths. Then get angered and dissapointed when these youngsters are unable to take the meat in and they gag on it.
The leaders in these churches are well aware of Paul's command to Timothy to Preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 2 Timothy 2:4
They do much long suffering with these young in the faithers. Reproving and rebuking and exhorting are done most effectively in these core groups in the church where relationships are actually forged in the trenches. These 'mega churches' as you guys call them are offering wonderful ministries of outreach in the church body for single parents and their children,., food distributions, meals for shut ins., visiting the sick and hurting., the church doors are open and something is always going on.
What you may see is the outside of a huge organization or a pastor that is at the door welcoming people in as he preaches the Gospel, the good news giving hope for the hopeless and introducing them to the 'inner core' of his church. He has many brothers and sisters who are all on board with how to best serve it's members and the community they are a part of. It's an outreach and a haven to the people who come to them.
I sure wish you could see more than the surface and give our brothers and sisters in Christ a break as they are out in the main stream media trying to make a difference using the channels of social media the way they do. Going out into the highways and byways can mean something different than you or I experience.
When I saw Joel O. answering the questions of these obviously unsaved tv news hosts and hostesses I was impressed. They tried to tag him down to the homosexual question and he answered in an excellent way by saying he goes with what the Bible says, without elaborating the meat as they so wanted him to do so they could successfully paint him as a hater of the homosexual and sinner. Joel understands the 'get em in and first catch the fish before cleaning them up' aspect. The bait sort of speak that God wants us to use is His love in us for the sinner. Like Jesus did, He loved the sinner and the sinner knew it.
The good news is Jesus loves you and died for your sin. Most people are already living some very bad news and need the love of God and we are here as His ambassadors. Don't say be well fed and go your way without giving them the bread of life!!
Last edited:
I've heard you before mention Osteen & his "different" ministry. So I searched for "Joel osteen's false quotes" & I found these three videos, in order, 1-3 at the top of the page. Quite interesting..... took less than 20 seconds to find.
[video=youtube;koIBkYl0cHk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koIBkYl0cHk[/video]
[video=youtube;koIBkYl0cHk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koIBkYl0cHk[/video]
Well I certainly didn't expect this thread to deteriorate as it has. The purpose for raising the issue was to discuss whether the new model for church growth is justified by the results it produces. I believe Joel Osteen is a good man who is simply weak on theology, having never expected to be a pastor. His major was in broadcasting, and he ran the TV ministry for 17 years prior to his dad's death. I disagree with Paul Washer's "Lordship Salvation" theology. Joyce Meyer didn't say that she has never sinned or never sins. She was talking about her confession of faith being that she is what the Bible says she is - "the righteousness of God in Him".
There are things that I don't condone among megachurch pastors and televangelists living lavish lifestyles, but there are many critics who are equally materialistic and judgmental to boot. As believers we should seek a balance between self-denial and prosperity, walk in love above all else.
As for the market driven church, I'm all for finding innovative ways to reach the lost and connect with people who are seeking truth, but not at the expense of the essentials of the faith. To me the biblical model is the empowerment and leading of the Holy Spirit, which I believe is being bypassed by many in the church growth community. How 'bout we try that before we turn to growth management principles taken from the business world?
There are things that I don't condone among megachurch pastors and televangelists living lavish lifestyles, but there are many critics who are equally materialistic and judgmental to boot. As believers we should seek a balance between self-denial and prosperity, walk in love above all else.
As for the market driven church, I'm all for finding innovative ways to reach the lost and connect with people who are seeking truth, but not at the expense of the essentials of the faith. To me the biblical model is the empowerment and leading of the Holy Spirit, which I believe is being bypassed by many in the church growth community. How 'bout we try that before we turn to growth management principles taken from the business world?
Last edited:
L
Oh Stephen63 show me something and tell me something I don't already know or heard from those sites about what they say of ol Joel O. I dislike those sites you posted because they exist solely for the purpose of finding fault with other Christians and bringing them doooowwwn. I listened to them and find them to still be as odious as before.
I've seen those clips and heard John MacGarther and Paul Washer before in their zeal to 'shed light' on Joel O. and his ministry.
The worst clip that Victoria O. has is the one where she says to do things for yourself. She could have said it much better but it's like forgiveness and we all have been told this. Forgiveness and bitterness is like drinking poison yourself and expecting others to get the effects. It's the person who is doing the un forgiveness who gets hurt ultimately more as he or she drinks the poison of it's effects. They are hurt every time. So forgiveness is something you are doing for yourself more than anyone else ultimately but as all of God's ways, they ALWAYS benefit us because He loves us so much. His ways are always the Best for all involved.
You can find in anyone's life where they could have and should have said it better but didn't and then you can play it over and over and over in your heard (or on the computer) until you can't stand to look at the person as they have done here on these sites you posted. Human beings do not have a hard time finding the ugly in anyone. It's finding the good as the Bible says we should that takes the extra mile. I stand by my previous post about how large churches are run.
I'd also like to add that for as long as we are alive, we will find good people who do not agree with us in our theology yet we can learn to do as the simple cows here on earth do., take the hay and leave the straw. There a tons of other Christians that I respect who do not speak in tongues or believe in healing under the new covenant. Yet for whatever reason, that is where they are right now and I can still appreciate and encourage their ministry like Ravi Zacharias who excels in his God given talent as a teacher and communicator in apologetic's.
But we each have to come to those convictions ourselves as the HolySpirit leads. I've been led to not do as you and many do by condemning the Joel Olstiens in the family but to take into consideration what the Bible says "to love one another as I have loved you" very seriously.
Last edited: