The natural man

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Aug 4, 2020
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#21
You have the answer hat I was looking for, except in verse 8, I believe the "faith" is not man/woman's faith, but is Jesus's faith, which harmonizes with Gal 2:16.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 4.5
 
Aug 4, 2020
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#22
1 Cor 2:14, Rom 7:18-25.
To borrow from another post :
The word "Natural" means that the object has its ORIGIN in NATURE. In the case of a man, since all men come from the womb, we are all NATURAL MEN. This is my point . We are all Natural man . We didn't lose this After regeneration. We are still in this body of death. This is what Paul is referring to in 1 cor 2 .
 

Corban

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Jun 11, 2020
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#25
In 1cor 3
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Are you taking this to mean that Paul could not speak unto these believers as to ones that are saved and have the Holy Spirit ?
A Christian, like all men, is made of three parts (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). During his past life, all his thoughts, decisions and feelings were dictated by the flesh. Then he is born again and the spirit is occupied by the Holy Spirit. Now, two sources, the flesh and the spirit call for loyalty, and an ongoing battle ensues within the Christian. Galatians 5:17 says; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would". The "babe in Christ" will nearly always lose and the man will continue to obey the dictates of the flesh. But by a diet of good spiritual food, good doctrine and exercise, the Christian starts to mature, and his spirit wins more and more battles. But if the Christian does not mature, his action, even after years, are still CARNAL - that is, having their ORIGIN in the flesh.

He is still a Christian. He is still a child of God. His rebirth is valid and cannot be undone, but he remains "a babe in Christ". And because the flesh is all-pervading, anything that has its ORIGIN in the spirit via the Holy Spirit, is met with the same lack of reaction that you get when you try to explain calculus to a 10 year-old. Paul could not reveal things that had their ORIGIN in the Spirit because they had no capacity, being fleshly, to cope with it.
 

Corban

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Jun 11, 2020
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#26
You have established by John 3:6 that the natural man has to be born again, before he can be able to discern spiritual things, but what what process does he have to go through to be born again, preferably, with scripture.? Rom 12:2, In verse 12:1, are the people that Paul is instructing, his brethren? Are his "brethren" the same brethren in Rom 1:7, All that be in Rome that are beloved of God, and are called to be saints?

Does the unregenerate man have to do anything to get reborn spiritually?
Probably the best answer to this is John 12:24. Christ is a grain of Wheat. He dies, and/or was buried into death. This death is not a cessation of function in the case of a seed, but a release of its LIFE. And from one grain becomes an ear. All the thus produced grains of wheat are exactly like the original grain. they have the same nature and LIFE. So the process of being born again is simply Christ being sown into your spirit. 1st Peter 1:18-25 shows the whole process:

18 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."


  1. Man is a sinner and lost. He was once God's property but the man subjected himself to another master. He needed to be redeemed
  2. It needed to be a Man, but a perfect man without sin Who redeemed him
  3. The connection is made by faith, and this faith is "BY Him" - a gift from God (Eph.2:8)
  4. The faith produces the rebirth, as explained by John 12:24 above - via a seed (the same as in the natural realm)
  5. But the faith "comes from hearing", so some man spoke, or pointed to the truth and the Person of Christ - the gospel
Finally, the actual words of scripture do not show rebirth to be a solution to death - as many Christian teachers claim. When Adam was placed in front to of the Tree of Life, he was perfect and without sin or death. Yet he lacked something - God's LIFE. If he had eaten from the Tree of Life he would have ADDED God's life to his perfect human life. It would have been an ADDITIONAL BIRTH - but in the spirit - not the body. John 3:3 says "born AGAIN", and verse 6 shows that this rebirth is ONLY in the human spirit. This is what Nicodemus should have known - him having the Tanakh and the same example of Adam. John 20:30-31 shows the purpose of John's gospel - to get God's LIFE into man. It was achieved in John 20:22. So Peter writes in 2nd Peter 1:4;

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
 
Aug 4, 2020
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#28
scripture refers to the natural man many times as being


Faith is planted in the born again heart
Rom 4.5
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So its not really ' his faith ' ?
 
Sep 28, 2015
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#29
Rom 4.5
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So its not really ' his faith ' ?
We are gifted with faith, so it becomes ours, yet it is nurtured by God through scripture and sometimes by experience.
It was Abrahams faith that saved his son. Yet I would say God put the faith in Abraham, a man of God's promises.
 
Aug 4, 2020
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#30
We are gifted with faith, so it becomes ours, yet it is nurtured by God through scripture and sometimes by experience.
It was Abrahams faith that saved his son. Yet I would say God put the faith in Abraham, a man of God's promises.
It says ' HIS faith, not gifted faith ? Thats a private interpretation .
 
Sep 28, 2015
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#31
It says ' HIS faith, not gifted faith ? Thats a private interpretation .
All faith comes FROM God.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. God give us the ears to hear
Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith HE is the AUTHOR of our faith......we are not the author

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Therer are many verses that say the same thing.....like in Eph where we are told that faith is a gift from God and it is not of ourselves.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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#32
A Christian, like all men, is made of three parts (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). During his past life, all his thoughts, decisions and feelings were dictated by the flesh. Then he is born again and the spirit is occupied by the Holy Spirit. Now, two sources, the flesh and the spirit call for loyalty, and an ongoing battle ensues within the Christian. Galatians 5:17 says; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would". The "babe in Christ" will nearly always lose and the man will continue to obey the dictates of the flesh. But by a diet of good spiritual food, good doctrine and exercise, the Christian starts to mature, and his spirit wins more and more battles. But if the Christian does not mature, his action, even after years, are still CARNAL - that is, having their ORIGIN in the flesh.

He is still a Christian. He is still a child of God. His rebirth is valid and cannot be undone, but he remains "a babe in Christ". And because the flesh is all-pervading, anything that has its ORIGIN in the spirit via the Holy Spirit, is met with the same lack of reaction that you get when you try to explain calculus to a 10 year-old. Paul could not reveal things that had their ORIGIN in the Spirit because they had no capacity, being fleshly, to cope with it.
I agree with this post. throughfaith knows our stand on this subject, but somehow, gets joy out of his continually repeating his opposition to it.
 
Jul 8, 2018
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#34
Probably the best answer to this is John 12:24. Christ is a grain of Wheat. He dies, and/or was buried into death. This death is not a cessation of function in the case of a seed, but a release of its LIFE. And from one grain becomes an ear. All the thus produced grains of wheat are exactly like the original grain. they have the same nature and LIFE. So the process of being born again is simply Christ being sown into your spirit. 1st Peter 1:18-25 shows the whole process:

18 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."


  1. Man is a sinner and lost. He was once God's property but the man subjected himself to another master. He needed to be redeemed
  2. It needed to be a Man, but a perfect man without sin Who redeemed him
  3. The connection is made by faith, and this faith is "BY Him" - a gift from God (Eph.2:8)
  4. The faith produces the rebirth, as explained by John 12:24 above - via a seed (the same as in the natural realm)
  5. But the faith "comes from hearing", so some man spoke, or pointed to the truth and the Person of Christ - the gospel
Finally, the actual words of scripture do not show rebirth to be a solution to death - as many Christian teachers claim. When Adam was placed in front to of the Tree of Life, he was perfect and without sin or death. Yet he lacked something - God's LIFE. If he had eaten from the Tree of Life he would have ADDED God's life to his perfect human life. It would have been an ADDITIONAL BIRTH - but in the spirit - not the body. John 3:3 says "born AGAIN", and verse 6 shows that this rebirth is ONLY in the human spirit. This is what Nicodemus should have known - him having the Tanakh and the same example of Adam. John 20:30-31 shows the purpose of John's gospel - to get God's LIFE into man. It was achieved in John 20:22. So Peter writes in 2nd Peter 1:4;

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
By your text example one must die to bring forth life. fruit. You mention in you 5 steps, in particular step 3 stating that the connection to being born again, by the natural man, is made by "faith".

My understanding of 1 Cor is that the natural man only has faith in man, and his accomplishments, and he does not have spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit. You referenced Eph 2:8, in which "faith" in this verse, I believe, has reference to Jesus's faith, which I believe harmonizes with Gal 2:16.

Is not the natural man "spiritually dead" and unable to respond to his spiritual rebirth? at the time that he is quickened with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in Eph 2:1.

Does not 1 Pet 1:18-25 speak of the elect mentioned in verse 2, and not the natural man that cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, as indicated in verse 21?
 
Jul 8, 2018
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#36
Rom 4.5
5¶But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
So its not really ' his faith ' ?
The faith spoken of in Rom 4:5 is spiritual faith, in which the natural man does not have, his faith is in man, and his accomplishments, and thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness.
 
Jul 8, 2018
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#37
It says ' HIS faith, not gifted faith ? Thats a private interpretation .
You will never be able, by the scriptures, to give the natural man spiritual faith, until God quickens him to a spiritual life, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
May 17, 2013
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#38
You will never be able, by the scriptures, to give the natural man spiritual faith, until God quickens him to a spiritual life, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Is it really wise to tell God He cannot do what He has said He will do?

Saving faith comes by receiving the word of God. No one is saved by election.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Corban

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2020
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#39
By your text example one must die to bring forth life. fruit. You mention in you 5 steps, in particular step 3 stating that the connection to being born again, by the natural man, is made by "faith".

My understanding of 1 Cor is that the natural man only has faith in man, and his accomplishments, and he does not have spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit. You referenced Eph 2:8, in which "faith" in this verse, I believe, has reference to Jesus's faith, which I believe harmonizes with Gal 2:16.

Is not the natural man "spiritually dead" and unable to respond to his spiritual rebirth? at the time that he is quickened with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in Eph 2:1.

Does not 1 Pet 1:18-25 speak of the elect mentioned in verse 2, and not the natural man that cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, as indicated in verse 21?
Thanks for the reply and query. May I point you to point #3 - that faith is a gift. Would that answer your question? I agree that the natural man is destitute. He is similar to a snowball on a slope. He/she can only go downward and gather momentum. It needs an act of God to change that downward direction. So we see Peter in Matthew 16. He had to receive a vision from the Father to recognize who Christ was.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#40
All faith comes FROM God.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. God give us the ears to hear
Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith HE is the AUTHOR of our faith......we are not the author

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Therer are many verses that say the same thing.....like in Eph where we are told that faith is a gift from God and it is not of ourselves.
If I answer in numerical order
1) is Faith comes by hearing . Of course we here the Gospel ( Rom 1.16 ) and by this
The faith spoken of in Rom 4:5 is spiritual faith, in which the natural man does not have, his faith is in man, and his accomplishments, and thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness.
Of course . We can't really just read what it says we have to decipher the real hidden message which lays beneath and only the chosen can know it .