THE NEED TO BE BAPTIZED BY WATER & THE SPIRIT
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You must read it with a lens. The lens of context in the dialog, cultural context (what would that mean to them in that day), lexical syntactical context and analysis, (what do the words mean in their original language and sentence structure), authorial intent, All of these are a Lens. Rules of interpretation are a lens. But what we have to avoid are unnatural lenses that are forced or that someone has to tell us, because we would never come up with that lens using common reading comprehension skills.
It is not very logical to use the LENS of natural birth since that does not occur to people naturally and they have to be told by someone to look at it that way, and then they use the LENS of amniotic fluid, but that does not occur to anyone naturally especially if they were living in the first century and had never witnessed a natural child birth or knew about the gross details. Therefore it is indeed a LENS based on what you have been taught or read someone say that this is what it means. It is not likely that the disciples would have thought about the a baby in the amniotic fluid being what Jesus was talking about unless you can find any references to it in 1st Century culture or literature.
Since they were heavily involved in baptisms on a daily basis, it WOULD naturally occur to them that he was talking about the spiritual significance of Baptism. Not that the water itself saves us but the act of faith and repentance that it represents.
I propose that thinking that he was talking about a baby being born of amniotic fluid / water, is indeed a forced LENS of interpretation that would not occur to someone on a desert island with just a bible and no religious influence. That person would be thinking Baptism based on the whole context of the Gospel of John and all the baptism activity that was being emphasized. They would have to be told NOT to think that way.
But I could be wrong.
It is not very logical to use the LENS of natural birth since that does not occur to people naturally and they have to be told by someone to look at it that way, and then they use the LENS of amniotic fluid, but that does not occur to anyone naturally especially if they were living in the first century and had never witnessed a natural child birth or knew about the gross details. Therefore it is indeed a LENS based on what you have been taught or read someone say that this is what it means. It is not likely that the disciples would have thought about the a baby in the amniotic fluid being what Jesus was talking about unless you can find any references to it in 1st Century culture or literature.
Since they were heavily involved in baptisms on a daily basis, it WOULD naturally occur to them that he was talking about the spiritual significance of Baptism. Not that the water itself saves us but the act of faith and repentance that it represents.
I propose that thinking that he was talking about a baby being born of amniotic fluid / water, is indeed a forced LENS of interpretation that would not occur to someone on a desert island with just a bible and no religious influence. That person would be thinking Baptism based on the whole context of the Gospel of John and all the baptism activity that was being emphasized. They would have to be told NOT to think that way.
But I could be wrong.
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Baptism does not cause you to accept the message but signifies that you have accepted the message. Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John.
Baptism did not magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision that they made prior to becoming water baptized.
Doesn't look like baptismal regeneration. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
Baptism did not magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision that they made prior to becoming water baptized.
Doesn't look like baptismal regeneration. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
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It was necessary for Jesus to be baptized under the old order. Its what the dispute was about. John 3:25 The propmised time came when men and woman prophets from all nation came under their High Priest, Christ .You could think to oneself of the new birth. But not a sign of it. The new birth Holy Spirit baptism proceeds a desire to go out into the world .The ceremony can get a person temporally wet as a sign of a hope they have of being sent out two by two?
Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Well as far as I have both from experience and from others is that the baptism of the spirit is what first saves us, I mean when I was baptized in water it didn't do anything for me but when I was baptized in the spirit that is when I was filled with life. as far as water baptism goes I wouldn't go so far to say we don't need it but I also do think it differs from the baptism of the spirit
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I am in class . Did you have a question as to the foundation of water baptism? Or is the like tongues foundation who needs one when one has endless reasoning theories . And not a law of faith (circular.)
The Holy Spirit is the witness we have in us . We edify it not our own selves. When I was baptized in water 40 years ago it did not even make me wonder. shiver yes. There was no wonderment sign gift it must of edified the unseen .He is the one who established the foundation.
The Holy Spirit is the witness we have in us . We edify it not our own selves. When I was baptized in water 40 years ago it did not even make me wonder. shiver yes. There was no wonderment sign gift it must of edified the unseen .He is the one who established the foundation.
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Only the blood of Christ saves us. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ. The English translations of scripture says to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but in the original, it says to be continually filled, or, being filled, be filled. Jesus said He had to return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would be sent. We saw that fulfilled in Acts on the day of Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit empowers us to follow Christ and through Him, God gives spiritual gifts as He wills.
As mailmandan above states, water baptism does not save and does not cause a person to accept the gospel, but it signifies that we have accepted the gospel and are saved and we desire to be 'buried' with Christ.
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Yes this is indeed true, I treasure the bond we share with him and his spirit I call the holy spirit my best friend because though I know little about him he has always been there with me I call him mr. holy spirit being the child I am but when he filled me with his spirit he gave me so much more than salvation he gave me the best friend I could ask for.
I like the idea behind water baptism as well, we were born into this world from earthly waters from inside the womb but born again in spiritual waters in water baptism, at least that is how I see it
I like the idea behind water baptism as well, we were born into this world from earthly waters from inside the womb but born again in spiritual waters in water baptism, at least that is how I see it
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True, understanding from context requires one to place yourself in the listeners then and understand from their perspective.
If no one in the 1st century had that understanding that babies are being born from the water in the womb, it will be very strange to think, "Oh those 1st century Jews all understood that as natural birth from the womb."
If no one in the 1st century had that understanding that babies are being born from the water in the womb, it will be very strange to think, "Oh those 1st century Jews all understood that as natural birth from the womb."
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They were making the same mistake you guys are. seeing all these baptisms and not understanding they are united in Christ. The last Baptism He really stressed over is united to the one baptism into Our Lord Jesus. Pentecost confirms the One Baptism and equips the Church to accomplish it's mission. From John who's life made a straight way to the Lord. to the baptism on the cross united in the Life of Our Lord. The Holy Spirit equips each with power to participate in the Church's mission. That's how He confirms us in our Baptism. Baptism...it says what it does and does what it say's.