THE NEED TO BE BAPTIZED BY WATER & THE SPIRIT

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,437
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#61
Luke 7:29
All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John.


Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)



Doesn't look like a powerless symbol.
It does appear as a witness against those who reject the authority of Christ.
As Our Savior He did so we could die and rise with Him.
The baptism of Jesus in water has no benefit in the matter of salvation. Jesus had no sin of His own.

We rise with Him because of grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 21, 2009
1,931
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#62
Jesus is drawing an analogy for Nicodemus.

Physical birth and Spiritual birth

You need to read it without adding in your lens of Baptism.
You must read it with a lens. The lens of context in the dialog, cultural context (what would that mean to them in that day), lexical syntactical context and analysis, (what do the words mean in their original language and sentence structure), authorial intent, All of these are a Lens. Rules of interpretation are a lens. But what we have to avoid are unnatural lenses that are forced or that someone has to tell us, because we would never come up with that lens using common reading comprehension skills.

It is not very logical to use the LENS of natural birth since that does not occur to people naturally and they have to be told by someone to look at it that way, and then they use the LENS of amniotic fluid, but that does not occur to anyone naturally especially if they were living in the first century and had never witnessed a natural child birth or knew about the gross details. Therefore it is indeed a LENS based on what you have been taught or read someone say that this is what it means. It is not likely that the disciples would have thought about the a baby in the amniotic fluid being what Jesus was talking about unless you can find any references to it in 1st Century culture or literature.

Since they were heavily involved in baptisms on a daily basis, it WOULD naturally occur to them that he was talking about the spiritual significance of Baptism. Not that the water itself saves us but the act of faith and repentance that it represents.

I propose that thinking that he was talking about a baby being born of amniotic fluid / water, is indeed a forced LENS of interpretation that would not occur to someone on a desert island with just a bible and no religious influence. That person would be thinking Baptism based on the whole context of the Gospel of John and all the baptism activity that was being emphasized. They would have to be told NOT to think that way.

But I could be wrong.
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
957
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#63
You are not Jesus. Jesus needed no baptism. You are seeing baptism from an English translation perspective not from the original Greek perspective. There are many baptisms but only one that produces eternal life.

There is no baptism that men can perform to remit sin or redeem a soul. The baptism that saves is wholly of God and not of human hands.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus said to do it. Peter said to do it for the remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit.

It's how Jesus shares His death and resurrection with us.

One can be baptized and rebel against God, God can save without it, but one can't presume they can be saved without it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,841
9,552
113
54
#64
Luke 7:29
All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John.


Luke 7:30
But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)


Doesn't look like a powerless symbol.
Baptism does not cause you to accept the message but signifies that you have accepted the message. Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John.

Baptism did not magically make them become disciples of John but their decision to become disciples of John was signified in baptism. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision that they made prior to becoming water baptized.

Doesn't look like baptismal regeneration. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
 
Mar 21, 2009
1,931
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New York
#65
One baptism in respect to two working together as one "work of faith".

One lord, the greater of the two (father) greater in position but not purpose. God is one. Ceremonial laws are used when a person desires to become a member of the priesthood of believers .They are a a shadow of a work shadows do not work, they demonstrate the unseen work.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


if we offer that kind of non faith towards God rather than His faith the at works in us . we are in danger of those who cricify christ ow over and over to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough.


No such thing as sign self edifying sign gifts .Jesus calls them dead works . the living foundation is laid once. Faith towards us

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV)Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (not from) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Careful garee, your liable to strain something. :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,437
2,281
113
#67
Jesus said to do it. Peter said to do it for the remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit.

It's how Jesus shares His death and resurrection with us.

One can be baptized and rebel against God, God can save without it, but one can't presume they can be saved without it.
One cannot rebel against God and have God save them in their state of rebellion. Repentance is submitting to Gods authority and surrendering your will to His will. You can resist God and remain unsaved. Water baptism will not change the will of man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
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#68
It was necessary for Jesus to be baptized under the old order. Its what the dispute was about. John 3:25 The propmised time came when men and woman prophets from all nation came under their High Priest, Christ .You could think to oneself of the new birth. But not a sign of it. The new birth Holy Spirit baptism proceeds a desire to go out into the world .The ceremony can get a person temporally wet as a sign of a hope they have of being sent out two by two?

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
15,146
8,224
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#69
It was necessary for Jesus to be baptized under the old order. Its what the dispute was about. John 3:25 The propmised time came when men and woman prophets from all nation came under their High Priest, Christ .You could think to oneself of the new birth. But not a sign of it. The new birth Holy Spirit baptism proceeds a desire to go out into the world .The ceremony can get a person temporally wet as a sign of a hope they have of being sent out two by two?

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Typical incoherent bafflegab.

PLEASE take a class in basic English. You're wasting your time trying to discuss theological issues when you can't even write a coherent paragraph.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
16,682
1,495
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#70
Well as far as I have both from experience and from others is that the baptism of the spirit is what first saves us, I mean when I was baptized in water it didn't do anything for me but when I was baptized in the spirit that is when I was filled with life. as far as water baptism goes I wouldn't go so far to say we don't need it but I also do think it differs from the baptism of the spirit
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
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#71
Typical incoherent bafflegab.

PLEASE take a class in basic English. You're wasting your time trying to discuss theological issues when you can't even write a coherent paragraph.
I am in class . Did you have a question as to the foundation of water baptism? Or is the like tongues foundation who needs one when one has endless reasoning theories . And not a law of faith (circular.)

The Holy Spirit is the witness we have in us . We edify it not our own selves. When I was baptized in water 40 years ago it did not even make me wonder. shiver yes. There was no wonderment sign gift it must of edified the unseen .He is the one who established the foundation.
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,948
1,187
113
#72
Well as far as I have both from experience and from others is that the baptism of the spirit is what first saves us, I mean when I was baptized in water it didn't do anything for me but when I was baptized in the spirit that is when I was filled with life. as far as water baptism goes I wouldn't go so far to say we don't need it but I also do think it differs from the baptism of the spirit

Only the blood of Christ saves us. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ. The English translations of scripture says to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but in the original, it says to be continually filled, or, being filled, be filled. Jesus said He had to return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would be sent. We saw that fulfilled in Acts on the day of Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit empowers us to follow Christ and through Him, God gives spiritual gifts as He wills.

Baptism does not cause you to accept the message but signifies that you have accepted the message.
As mailmandan above states, water baptism does not save and does not cause a person to accept the gospel, but it signifies that we have accepted the gospel and are saved and we desire to be 'buried' with Christ.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
16,682
1,495
113
#73
Only the blood of Christ saves us. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ. The English translations of scripture says to be filled with the Holy Spirit, but in the original, it says to be continually filled, or, being filled, be filled. Jesus said He had to return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would be sent. We saw that fulfilled in Acts on the day of Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit empowers us to follow Christ and through Him, God gives spiritual gifts as He wills.



As mailmandan above states, water baptism does not save and does not cause a person to accept the gospel, but it signifies that we have accepted the gospel and are saved and we desire to be 'buried' with Christ.
Yes this is indeed true, I treasure the bond we share with him and his spirit I call the holy spirit my best friend because though I know little about him he has always been there with me I call him mr. holy spirit being the child I am but when he filled me with his spirit he gave me so much more than salvation he gave me the best friend I could ask for.

I like the idea behind water baptism as well, we were born into this world from earthly waters from inside the womb but born again in spiritual waters in water baptism, at least that is how I see it
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
5,524
956
113
#76
You must read it with a lens. The lens of context in the dialog, cultural context (what would that mean to them in that day), lexical syntactical context and analysis, (what do the words mean in their original language and sentence structure), authorial intent, All of these are a Lens. Rules of interpretation are a lens. But what we have to avoid are unnatural lenses that are forced or that someone has to tell us, because we would never come up with that lens using common reading comprehension skills.

It is not very logical to use the LENS of natural birth since that does not occur to people naturally and they have to be told by someone to look at it that way, and then they use the LENS of amniotic fluid, but that does not occur to anyone naturally especially if they were living in the first century and had never witnessed a natural child birth or knew about the gross details. Therefore it is indeed a LENS based on what you have been taught or read someone say that this is what it means. It is not likely that the disciples would have thought about the a baby in the amniotic fluid being what Jesus was talking about unless you can find any references to it in 1st Century culture or literature.

Since they were heavily involved in baptisms on a daily basis, it WOULD naturally occur to them that he was talking about the spiritual significance of Baptism. Not that the water itself saves us but the act of faith and repentance that it represents.

I propose that thinking that he was talking about a baby being born of amniotic fluid / water, is indeed a forced LENS of interpretation that would not occur to someone on a desert island with just a bible and no religious influence. That person would be thinking Baptism based on the whole context of the Gospel of John and all the baptism activity that was being emphasized. They would have to be told NOT to think that way.

But I could be wrong.
True, understanding from context requires one to place yourself in the listeners then and understand from their perspective.

If no one in the 1st century had that understanding that babies are being born from the water in the womb, it will be very strange to think, "Oh those 1st century Jews all understood that as natural birth from the womb."
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
957
212
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#79
By saying ONE baptism in Ephesians 4:5, Paul did not mean that there is only one baptism that exists, such as water baptism but not Spirit baptism or Spirit baptism but not water baptism and this one baptism (Spirit baptism) places us into the body of Christ.
They were making the same mistake you guys are. seeing all these baptisms and not understanding they are united in Christ. The last Baptism He really stressed over is united to the one baptism into Our Lord Jesus. Pentecost confirms the One Baptism and equips the Church to accomplish it's mission. From John who's life made a straight way to the Lord. to the baptism on the cross united in the Life of Our Lord. The Holy Spirit equips each with power to participate in the Church's mission. That's how He confirms us in our Baptism. Baptism...it says what it does and does what it say's.
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
957
212
43
#80
Exactly, shadows used in ceremonies can get a person wet and introduce the new kingdom of priest as carnal ordinances .
Can a shadow have a shadow?