The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace

[sydlit]

If it helps, there are many here who are not WOF who understand and accept this message of grace. It is not exclusive to the WOF movement by any means.

Yeah, I get that, and thank you for the reply, you are right, of course. We're saved by grace thru faith in Christ, and that's a gift, the gift, and I can't understand the debates that sometimes rage over that simple yet profound truth.
But I was more specifically referring to LLs post re: grace and taking communion, and how many of her posts can be so grace-filled and edifying, not at all what I get when I hear the typical WoF preachers/fleecers, and I'm trying to reconcile that in my own thinking. Also wondering why you and Willie replied (thank you both) but she didn't. Maybe she thinks I'll debate the WoF with her. I wouldn't do that on this thread, unless it's brought into the context of the OP, but maybe she's re-thinking the WoF movement herself.
As I stated. I really appreciate alot of her posts, and just wanted her to know that, and to see how she reconciles that beautiful msg about grace/communion with the WoF doctrine, and how the two fit in here re: 'neo-gnosticism'.
God bless you.

 

[sydlit]

*My apologies re: slow typing and 'tablet-invaders' I'll call them.*
5 posts came out by the time I got my last one posted
so I didn't know answers were being posted.
I still see the OP , genuine saving grace, and WoF as being
3 separate, even antagonistic sets of belief.

I'm not too familiar with 'neo-gnosticism' or 'modern grace',
Either Jesus saves us by God's grace alone to the uttermost,
or we're not saved, that seems to be what the bible says,
but I have much to learn and am willing if I'm missing something.

As far as WoF, I only know of the tv folks like
copeland, hinn, creflo, etc.,
and I thought most WoF teaching was
the same as theirs or even tied in somehow,
and it seems a far cry from God's grace.

 

[ladylynn]

Ladylynn,
This, like many of your posts, is beautifully written.
I often get a 'good feeling' from them,
(for want of a better way of putting it).
And I want to give big Amens, but then I remember that
you are a proponenet of the WoF movement /preachers
and I get conflicted. I wish this weren't so.

It makes me feel like maybe I'm someone who has
'itching ears', just wanting teachers who give me
nice sounding words, but avoiding the tough realities.
Then again, I don't want to 'throw the baby out with
the bathwater'. (sorry, I don't really like that expression).

I've had enough tough realities from the world,
and have experienced more than my share of it even
right on this site by ppl who pretend to be a certain way
with others, yet turn stone-cold-hearted towards me
regarding prayer, forgiveness, compassion, or even
general devoted friendship and communication
God or no God, let alone genuine christian love ...
so maybe I DO just want to believe that in Jesus
all is forgiven and fulfilled, take communion with a
clear conscience and not worry about how others
judge me or misrepresent me to others behind the scenes,
or paint the Lord in a bad light through cold-heartedness.

If I could just get past the whole WoF movement,
and it really grieves me that I get stuck there.
But God bless you and Hallelujah anyhow,
And thank you for the lovely msg on grace and communion.

You and me both sydlit. Took me a long time to not think that way and it's a continual mind focus to stay confident in Christ but it is a solid rock He will keep bringing us back to. Am new to this type of confidence in His love for me. When it's not just an emotion from yourself you are not scared and are able to stand confident in His approval in Christ.

oh wow I sure heard that itching ears verse since as long as i can remember. And other verses too that brought in guilt and worry.,concern and frustration. I realized they were not being given to me properly or taken by me properly. Anything that causes me those issues of worry, guilt, frustrated concern ; I immediately know they are not from God but from myself and my fears. God has not given us the spirit of fear., but of power and love and a sound mind. So I again recieve that gift of no condemnation.

What you wrote is something I could just as well have written. Especially the people coldness thing and the contradictions of the world thing., and the communion thing. So I know that some words on a forum post here won't do it. But over a time here and there over a time the Bible read, written, spoken, taught will help you on your way like it helped me and it helps others who have been discouraged by people. He still wants us to NOT be islands inspite of the major contradictions and conflicts we have experienced with people.

Try not to think of me by the WOF thing because as I've talked to tons of Christians..have heard tons of opinions about WOF.,including my own. Same with hyper grace or neo Gnosticism...(whatever that is) I am not sure of all that WOF Christians believe maybe because I have not met all who say they are WOF but when people talk to me they say " Well, you don't sound like the usual WOF you probably don't understand WOF" and I'm suspecting it's because everyone has an idea about what it is??

Looking at other people is something we are warned about and we are also told to encourage one another. So what do we do? Does God want us to be encouraged? Is it a sin to feel the joy of the Lord through others and seek to be encouraged to stand strong? Just like you I am encouraged by other believers on these forums and wonder why God made us such socially needy beings?

The best way to describe the solution in my mind is God loves me as much as He loves you. And God loves HeRosefromthedead and Willie and FreeInChrist, and Grace777 and Peter and RoboOp and brotherGreggg and Brighthouse and Blondieinthehouse and crossnote and Grace8 and Oaktree and Kolelet and others who agree with me or totally disagree with me, God loves them all just as much as He loves me. AND He expects me to respect and love them too...(that is the goal.)

So, if He expects that, how can I not also rightly be encouraged by them? Why is it I've been taught to love people even if they don't love or agree with me BUT I can't accept their encouragement when they give it? Are they not loved by God just as much as me? Is their love any better or less than mine? Is their walk any less or more than mine? God loves them as much as me.

I'm just supposed to love them like He is loving me. And respect them. (but I don't have to agree with them 100%) The Holy Spirit will teach them just as He is teaching me and there is no turning with Him., He loves us in our weaknesses. And then it comes right back to grace.

God bless you too and Hallelujah too!!! Thank you for the post., touched my heart sydlit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not too familiar with 'neo-gnosticism' or 'modern grace',
Either Jesus saves us by God's grace alone to the uttermost,
or we're not saved, that seems to be what the bible says,
but I have much to learn and am willing if I'm missing something.

Neo-gnosticism just means a contemporary manifestation of beliefs that are similar in some way(s) to, or identical with, ancient gnostic beliefs.

 

[DP]

The cross changed everything. Before it was do to get. After its do as has been done to you.

"Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you." Col 3:13

Amazing how Hyper-Grace only points to the sin of others and forgiving them, and not inspecting themselves of sin and asking Jesus forgiveness, i.e., repenting.

How many times did Jesus tell the five Churches in Asia in Rev.2 & 3 to repent of their sins they were doing?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Amazing how Hyper-Grace only points to the sin of others and forgiving them, and not inspecting themselves of sin and asking Jesus forgiveness, i.e., repenting.

How many times did Jesus tell the five Churches in Asia in Rev.2 & 3 to repent of their sins they were doing?

Why would we ask for what I already have?? Why would we not point to forgiving others as God has forgiven us in Christ? Who here has suggested that we not repent? Straw man.

You think what God wants is a bunch of navel gazers?? Strange strangeness.

 

[DP]

Right, but what are you confessing for? Are you confessing, or coming in agreement, with God in regards to your sin that it is, indeed, sinful and give Him praise for Jesus' finished work (that took care of your sin/need for forgiveness)? Or, are you confessing your sin in order to obtain forgiveness, which according to the Gospel you already have in Christ due to His finished work?

Sin confession for forgiveness under the new covenant doesn't make sense (David was in the OT), because Jesus took care of our sin once and for all by His sacrifice. Among other things the word of God says He remembers our sins no more, our sins of scarlet are as white as snow, and according to David, "blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity." He doesn't impute sin to us. So, why would you confess your sin for forgiveness' sake when it isn't even being imputed to you? Matter of fact, it was imputed to Christ at the cross and He imputed His righteousness to you.

The key point here is that we are under a new covenant, and in this covenant the forgiveness of sins is not based upon sin confession but our faith-based confession of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, believing what He did on our behalf (paying the penalty for all our sin) and resurrecting on the third day. Sin has been dealt with, consider yourself dead to it and alive unto God.

And with that stroke, you have just un-written about 1/3 of New Testament teaching regarding our need for continued repentance to Christ of our future sins and walking by The Spirit instead of walking by our flesh.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

As I stated. I really appreciate alot of her posts, and just wanted her to know that, and to see how she reconciles that beautiful msg about grace/communion with the WoF doctrine, and how the two fit in here re: 'neo-gnosticism'.
God bless you.

No new.modern.hyper grace devotee dares address the OP directly because it so clearly incriminates what they believe. That's why we're into 240+ posts and it hasn't been addressed yet. All they can do is change the subject or throw out, "Straw man!"

 

[FreeNChrist]

No new.modern.hyper grace devotee dares address the OP directly because it so clearly incriminates what they believe. That's why we're into 240+ posts and it hasn't been addressed yet. All they can do is change the subject or throw out, "Straw man!"

Straw man.

 

[sydlit]

ladylynn: reposted: God bless you too and Hallelujah too!!! Thank you for the post., touched my heart sydlit. Thanks back atcha. That was really sweet, what you said in those other posts.
See?! You're too nice to be all wrapped up in that WoF stuff! Lol

Neo-gnosticism just means a contemporary manifestation of beliefs that are similar in some way(s) to, or identical with, ancient gnostic beliefs.

Ok, thanks. So they don't believe Jesus is real then?

 

[Willie-T]

This has been quite a thread. I can hardly believe how prevalent the attitude is that you have to make yourself as miserable as you can to be worthy of Eternal Life. This is like those modern-day pilgrims who beat and cut themselves while crawling on bare rocks for miles to go worship at a certain place.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I just have a question: If we do not need to ask forgiveness for things done after we are born again - ALL sins being forgiven - past, present, future - Why would we stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be answerable to things done in this body whether good or bad? (2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or bad.) If all has been forgiven - where is the bad?

 

[DP]

The cross changed everything. Before it was do to get. After its do as has been done to you.

"Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you." Col 3:13

Rom 3:24-26
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
KJV

What don't you understand about Apostle Paul's statement above in bold red?

Did you not understand Galatians 5 either by Apostle Paul, about walking in The Spirit vs. walking by our flesh?

Gal 5:18-25
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
KJV



According to that, IF... we walk by The Spirit, which means recognizing sin, and staying away from doing those things of the flesh, then... we are not under the law.

But IF... we instead walk by our flesh instead of The Spirit, doing those things of the flesh, it's just the opposite. We then place ourselves back under the law and its consequences. It's as simple as that.

Thus Apostle Paul never taught that we can disregard sin in our lives after having come to Christ Jesus.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I just have a question: If we do not need to ask forgiveness for things done after we are born again - ALL sins being forgiven - past, present, future - Why would we stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be answerable to things done in this body whether good or bad? (2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or bad.) If all has been forgiven - where is the bad?

Works, not sins.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Rom 3:24-26
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
KJV

What don't you understand about Apostle Paul's statement above in bold red?

Did you not understand Galatians 5 either by Apostle Paul, about walking in The Spirit vs. walking by our flesh?

Gal 5:18-25
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
KJV



According to that, IF... we walk by The Spirit, which means recognizing sin, and staying away from doing those things of the flesh, then... we are not under the law.

But IF... we instead walk by our flesh instead of The Spirit, doing those things of the flesh, it's just the opposite. We then place ourselves back under the law and its consequences. It's as simple as that.

Thus Apostle Paul never taught that we can disregard sin in our lives after having come to Christ Jesus.

Yep. Walking in the flesh, bad. Walking in the Spirit, good. No one here is saying to disregard sin. Straw man.

 

[DP]

I appreciate that clarification Ben. Am not a Gnostic., have never been a Gnostic and don't have ANY similarities to a Gnostic. I am not believing nor have I ever believed the way the OP has continually described anyone who believes in the gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought under the new covenant of grace.

The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.HyperGrace.........yeeeesssshhhhh calling fellow believers, brothers and sisters here on CC such a conglomeration of names doesn't even make any sense unless a person is familiar with the terms and sayings of the OP.

Salvation is by grace through faith and we are saved UNTO good works NOT by them. The works come after the salvation. Eph.2:8-10 Jesus is the only way to God., Christ is the only Savior.,the only Way. He gives a beautiful picture of His relationship with His sheep in John 10.



P.S. What in the world is on that guys face in post #6 and what are you trying to get across here Skinski ???? He looks like a terrorist or someone who is a fugitive.

The argument is not against what our Lord Jesus did for us upon His cross. It's about our WALK with Him after... we have believed on Him and been baptized, and that means examining sin in our lives thereafter with the help of The Holy Spirit, and repenting of it to stay in that WALK with Him.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This has been quite a thread. I can hardly believe how prevalent the attitude is that you have to make yourself as miserable as you can to be worthy of Eternal Life. This is like those modern-day pilgrims who beat and cut themselves while crawling on bare rocks for miles to go worship at a certain place.

So saying "Hey sorry about that Father" is making me miserable . . . . is me beating and cutting myself . . . . being a martyr?

Not in my mind . . . and it is not making me worthy of eternal life - by confessing Jesus Christ has made me worthy of eternal life - that and that only.

Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul. I cried to him with my mouth and high praise was on my tongue. If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened . . . . Psalm 66:16-18 (ESV)

If I had been aware of malice in my heart, the Lord would not have listened. Psalm 66:18 (HCSB)

Before you go there - I know this is OT but principles of life stand true and are very beneficial - This is not a LAW; it is just a principle set before us. When I ask forgiveness then my heart doesn't condemn me and I have confidence before God.

 

[Grace777x70]

Thee bad means "worthless"....those deeds done in the body that are from self-effort..those are the wood, hay and stubble which means they are "worthless".....a opposed to the gold, silver and precious gems..those are the "works" done by the life of Christ in us working through and in us..

judgment seat = Greek = bema seat = where they got rewards for things done during the Roman games..not judged for sins as religion has said to us in the past..



[FONT="Gentium" !important][I][COLOR=#0000FF]Phaulo[/COLOR]s[/I][/FONT] suggests “[COLOR=#0000FF]indifference”[/COLOR] or simply “[COLOR=#0000FF]worthlessness[/COLOR].” Among the Greek philosophers, the Stoics divided men into two groups: those who were [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]spoudaios[/I][/FONT] (4558), “eager, energetic, purposeful,” and those who were [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]phaulos[/I][/FONT], “lazy, worthless, useless” (see Trench, [FONT="Gentium" !important][I]Synonyms of the New Testament[/I][/FONT], p.296).
Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Sigma-Omega.



[QUOTE="peacefulbeliever, post: 2441617"]I just have a question: If we do not need to ask forgiveness for things done after we are born again - ALL sins being forgiven - past, present, future - Why would we stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be answerable to things done in this body whether good or bad? (2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or bad.) If all has been forgiven - where is the bad?[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeNChrist]

So saying "Hey sorry about that Father" is making me miserable . . . . is me beating and cutting myself . . . . being a martyr?

Not in my mind . . . and it is not making me worthy of eternal life - by confessing Jesus Christ has made me worthy of eternal life - that and that only.

Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul. I cried to him with my mouth and high praise was on my tongue. If I had cherished iniquity in my heart, the Lord would not have listened . . . . Psalm 66:16-18 (ESV)

If I had been aware of malice in my heart, the Lord would not have listened. Psalm 66:18 (HCSB)

Before you go there - I know this is OT but principles of life stand true and are very beneficial - This is not a LAW; it is just a principle set before us. When I ask forgiveness then my heart doesn't condemn me and I have confidence before God.

All of that was fine right up to the last line. If I forgave someone and yet they kept coming back to me and asking again for the forgiveness I have already given to them, I would be hurt and insulted. What do you think it does to God?

 

[Grace777x70]

I think He has forgiven us of that....

All of that was fine right up to the last line. If I forgave someone and yet they kept coming back to me and asking again for the forgiveness I have already given to them, I would be hurt and insulted. What do you think it does to God?