The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace
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There is a deadly proposition and it is your, a man-made religion. No matter how you twist it, in our conversations your core beliefs are coming out. It is the fruit of a chain of thought. It needs to be clarified and answered.
I know in the end a core assumption is the root of everything. Your root is righteousness is impossible.
Your answer is grace and mysticism. Now it is a proposition, but it is not scriptural. It does appeal to failed legalists or self righteous people who have always failed to grasp the gospel. But there are many different types of people in the Kingdom and few are actually your target market and all you are preaching is failure not victory.
To say the cross is real victory, victory to walk in righteousness, was not your thought or even an idea you thought possible. But that is what the apostles preached. So you become accused of disbelief and failure.
You have no answer to lust or desire, to inappropriate greed, or whatever thing that possesses your soul. It is just by saying a few religious words it will go away. You have no real theology of the nature of man or why communion with God changes us, other than a new "spirit" makes things better. Until you can answer how emotions define who we are you will be lost in just appeasing disappointment of self justifiers with false grace reconciliation without repentance.
I know in the end a core assumption is the root of everything. Your root is righteousness is impossible.
Your answer is grace and mysticism. Now it is a proposition, but it is not scriptural. It does appeal to failed legalists or self righteous people who have always failed to grasp the gospel. But there are many different types of people in the Kingdom and few are actually your target market and all you are preaching is failure not victory.
To say the cross is real victory, victory to walk in righteousness, was not your thought or even an idea you thought possible. But that is what the apostles preached. So you become accused of disbelief and failure.
You have no answer to lust or desire, to inappropriate greed, or whatever thing that possesses your soul. It is just by saying a few religious words it will go away. You have no real theology of the nature of man or why communion with God changes us, other than a new "spirit" makes things better. Until you can answer how emotions define who we are you will be lost in just appeasing disappointment of self justifiers with false grace reconciliation without repentance.
To whom was 1 John 1:8-9 written?
Before even getting into an explanantion, let's ask the question, after we confess our sins once and He forgives them and cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness, what do we do next? Keep asking?? Absolutley NOT!!!! We have already been cleansed of ALL unrighteousness the moment we were born again and became new creations in Christ. We are made righteous in Him. The basis of our fellowship with Him is His blood.
It just does not make sense that Christians have taken this verse and built a whole doctrine around it when actually the entire first chapter of 1 John was written to combat the Gnostics, who were unbelievers. This verse stands as the only one of its kind under the New Covenant. Paul does not mention this once in any of his 13 letters, NOT ONCE!! No other verse places a conditional "if" on forgiveness and cleansing. John was saying to these unbelievers that if they confessed their sins (turned toward God and away from the world), God would be faithful and just to cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness. This would be a one time act for those being born again. Please take note of the word "ALL." For believers, the moment we received Jesus, all our sins were forgiven once and for ALL. We are not to live from confession to confession, but from faith to faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work. Awesome!
Seriously, how many times does a person need to be forgiven for ALL sins? Just ONCE!
The teaching that a believer has to keep confessing sins to be forgiven is completely false. It is a slap in the face to the finished work of Christ. If (repeated) confession of sins is vital for your forgiveness, then the Apostle Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, has done us a great injustice because he did not mention it even once-not once-in any of his letters to the church.
In the verse before 1 John 1:8-9, John writes in verse 7, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin." The moment you receive Christ, the blood of Jesus keeps on cleansing you. It is as if you are under a waterfall of His forgiveness that never ends. Amen!
In 1 John 2:12, John states, "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake." This is a statement to believers. Our sins have already been forgiven.
Over two thousand years ago early forms of Gnostic thought infiltrated the church and popularized the idea that Jesus was only spirit. The Gnostics taught that all matter was evil. Early Gnostics claimed that God would never stoop so low as to take on human flesh. So the apostle John purposely uses physical words in his opening statement to challenge this Gnostic heresy. Later, he says that anyone who does not believe that Jesus came in human flesh is not from God (1 John 4:3).
Interestingly, early Gnostic philosophers didn't just deny the physicality of Jesus; they also denied the reality of sin. Gnostics claimed that sin wasn't real or didn't matter, since it took place in the physical world. So John opens his letter by attacking two Gnostic heresies: 1) Jesus as nonphysical, and 2) sin as a nonreality.
Understanding John's purpose in opening his letter this way is crucial. Some claim that 1 John 1:9 must refer to Christians, since John uses the word 'we'. There are preceding and following verses that John uses the word 'we' and 'us' to politely combat Gnostic heresy.
If we claim to be without sin...(1 John 1:8)
If we claim we have not sinned.... (1 John 1:10
the truth is not in us... (1 John 1:8)
(God's) word is not in us... (1 John 1:10)
Is John referring to believers here? When referring to people who don't have the truth in them or God's word in them, does he include himself and the church in that group? Certainly not! John is politely saying that if we humans claim we have no sin, we're liars and don't have Christ (the Word and the Truth) in us. Clearly, John is talking about unbelievers.
To further support what John is saying here, let's look at 1 John 5:10. John wrote, "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given us concerning His Son." John is describing those that do not believe in God as making Him a liar. He stated the same message in 1 John 1:10, "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
John is clearly addressing unbelievers.
Verse 9 is a remedy for unbelievers who have been influenced by Gnostic peer pressure and are now claiming sinless perfection. John is essentially asking, "Instead of claiming that you have no sin, will you consider changing your mind? Instead of claiming you've never sinned, how about agreeing with God?" He's inviting Gnostics to rethink their point of view. If they'll admit their sinfulness, then God can do a saving work in their lives.
1 John 1:9 is an invitation to become a Christian. As believers in Christ, God has taken away all our sins, condemning them in the flesh (Romans 8:1-39). He remembers them no more (Hebrews 8:7-13). Hebrews 10 describes that one sacrifice of Christ is sufficient. Jesus perfected for all time those who are sanctified by His one offering (Hebrews 10:14). There is no longer any offering for sin (Hebrews 10:18). Our forgiveness and cleansing are not dependent on our memory, our confession, or our asking. Our forgiveness and cleansing are solely because of the finished work of Jesus Christ. Amen!
To place icing on the cake, if confessing sins is necessary for forgiveness under the New Covenant, then why does Paul not mention it once in any of his letters (13 letters in the New Covenant)? NOT ONCE!!! Simply because it is not for believers in the New Covenant.
The truth is the truth and it will set us free!
Before even getting into an explanantion, let's ask the question, after we confess our sins once and He forgives them and cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness, what do we do next? Keep asking?? Absolutley NOT!!!! We have already been cleansed of ALL unrighteousness the moment we were born again and became new creations in Christ. We are made righteous in Him. The basis of our fellowship with Him is His blood.
It just does not make sense that Christians have taken this verse and built a whole doctrine around it when actually the entire first chapter of 1 John was written to combat the Gnostics, who were unbelievers. This verse stands as the only one of its kind under the New Covenant. Paul does not mention this once in any of his 13 letters, NOT ONCE!! No other verse places a conditional "if" on forgiveness and cleansing. John was saying to these unbelievers that if they confessed their sins (turned toward God and away from the world), God would be faithful and just to cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness. This would be a one time act for those being born again. Please take note of the word "ALL." For believers, the moment we received Jesus, all our sins were forgiven once and for ALL. We are not to live from confession to confession, but from faith to faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work. Awesome!
Seriously, how many times does a person need to be forgiven for ALL sins? Just ONCE!
The teaching that a believer has to keep confessing sins to be forgiven is completely false. It is a slap in the face to the finished work of Christ. If (repeated) confession of sins is vital for your forgiveness, then the Apostle Paul, who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament, has done us a great injustice because he did not mention it even once-not once-in any of his letters to the church.
In the verse before 1 John 1:8-9, John writes in verse 7, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin." The moment you receive Christ, the blood of Jesus keeps on cleansing you. It is as if you are under a waterfall of His forgiveness that never ends. Amen!
In 1 John 2:12, John states, "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake." This is a statement to believers. Our sins have already been forgiven.
Over two thousand years ago early forms of Gnostic thought infiltrated the church and popularized the idea that Jesus was only spirit. The Gnostics taught that all matter was evil. Early Gnostics claimed that God would never stoop so low as to take on human flesh. So the apostle John purposely uses physical words in his opening statement to challenge this Gnostic heresy. Later, he says that anyone who does not believe that Jesus came in human flesh is not from God (1 John 4:3).
Interestingly, early Gnostic philosophers didn't just deny the physicality of Jesus; they also denied the reality of sin. Gnostics claimed that sin wasn't real or didn't matter, since it took place in the physical world. So John opens his letter by attacking two Gnostic heresies: 1) Jesus as nonphysical, and 2) sin as a nonreality.
Understanding John's purpose in opening his letter this way is crucial. Some claim that 1 John 1:9 must refer to Christians, since John uses the word 'we'. There are preceding and following verses that John uses the word 'we' and 'us' to politely combat Gnostic heresy.
If we claim to be without sin...(1 John 1:8)
If we claim we have not sinned.... (1 John 1:10
the truth is not in us... (1 John 1:8)
(God's) word is not in us... (1 John 1:10)
Is John referring to believers here? When referring to people who don't have the truth in them or God's word in them, does he include himself and the church in that group? Certainly not! John is politely saying that if we humans claim we have no sin, we're liars and don't have Christ (the Word and the Truth) in us. Clearly, John is talking about unbelievers.
To further support what John is saying here, let's look at 1 John 5:10. John wrote, "The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given us concerning His Son." John is describing those that do not believe in God as making Him a liar. He stated the same message in 1 John 1:10, "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."
John is clearly addressing unbelievers.
Verse 9 is a remedy for unbelievers who have been influenced by Gnostic peer pressure and are now claiming sinless perfection. John is essentially asking, "Instead of claiming that you have no sin, will you consider changing your mind? Instead of claiming you've never sinned, how about agreeing with God?" He's inviting Gnostics to rethink their point of view. If they'll admit their sinfulness, then God can do a saving work in their lives.
1 John 1:9 is an invitation to become a Christian. As believers in Christ, God has taken away all our sins, condemning them in the flesh (Romans 8:1-39). He remembers them no more (Hebrews 8:7-13). Hebrews 10 describes that one sacrifice of Christ is sufficient. Jesus perfected for all time those who are sanctified by His one offering (Hebrews 10:14). There is no longer any offering for sin (Hebrews 10:18). Our forgiveness and cleansing are not dependent on our memory, our confession, or our asking. Our forgiveness and cleansing are solely because of the finished work of Jesus Christ. Amen!
To place icing on the cake, if confessing sins is necessary for forgiveness under the New Covenant, then why does Paul not mention it once in any of his letters (13 letters in the New Covenant)? NOT ONCE!!! Simply because it is not for believers in the New Covenant.
The truth is the truth and it will set us free!
Perhaps you missed my first paragraph in my post to you:
Originally Posted by JGIG
I've experienced legalism, and I've seen the control that those in leadership in such congregations wield as they mis-use Scripture. If you have not, then that's great! But Rob is addressing the folks out there who really do behave that way. If he's not describing you, then no worries!
You go on to say this:
. . . indicating that you acknowledge that there are situations out there like he's describing.
That you are projecting his more harsh words on yourself is not Rob's fault - that is your choice. Was Jesus talking about you when he called some folks a 'brood of vipers'? No? And you go on to read what He's saying - in the context of who He was talking about, without taking personal offense, right? Likewise, if Rob is not talking about you, and apparently that is the case, why count his appropriate harshness (Jesus was harsh when it came to the Pharisees and self-righteous, yes?) against him?
Accurately describing those who do wield religion as a tool of manipulation and control is not a lack of grace, it's discernment.
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
(from James 4)
-JGIG
I've experienced legalism, and I've seen the control that those in leadership in such congregations wield as they mis-use Scripture. If you have not, then that's great! But Rob is addressing the folks out there who really do behave that way. If he's not describing you, then no worries!
You go on to say this:
Let me say again that I endorse what he goes on to say in the rest of the chapter. And he provides examples of people who are lost today having experienced legalism in the past. I know of cases where this has happened, too. Anyway, let me quote those three paragraphs.
. . . indicating that you acknowledge that there are situations out there like he's describing.
That you are projecting his more harsh words on yourself is not Rob's fault - that is your choice. Was Jesus talking about you when he called some folks a 'brood of vipers'? No? And you go on to read what He's saying - in the context of who He was talking about, without taking personal offense, right? Likewise, if Rob is not talking about you, and apparently that is the case, why count his appropriate harshness (Jesus was harsh when it came to the Pharisees and self-righteous, yes?) against him?
Accurately describing those who do wield religion as a tool of manipulation and control is not a lack of grace, it's discernment.
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
(from James 4)
-JGIG
Imagine the abuse Martin Luther had to endure from the hands of the religious people back then....you know he was going against the "known" so-called truth at the time...
I was in that DIY holiness religion before and did it with sincerity and with tears wanting to please the Lord. I know what it is all about.
I found that it did have a glory....like Moses fading glory..but when I heard the gospel of the grace of Jesus....I found the true unfading glory in Him...
I tried that religion....believe me....and very sincerely...but it just doesn't come close to knowing Jesus!.
I'm drinking from the new wine!..with a new wineskin!. .worshipping our Father with a clean and pure heart washed by the blood of His Son and our Lord! It's glorious!
People can give all kinds of philosophical talks....give all kinds of religious reasons for things...but none of them come close to knowing Him....and His great redemption and love for us.
There is nothing like Him!!!! Jesus is Lord!...and He is mighty to save!
I was in that DIY holiness religion before and did it with sincerity and with tears wanting to please the Lord. I know what it is all about.
I found that it did have a glory....like Moses fading glory..but when I heard the gospel of the grace of Jesus....I found the true unfading glory in Him...
I tried that religion....believe me....and very sincerely...but it just doesn't come close to knowing Jesus!.
I'm drinking from the new wine!..with a new wineskin!. .worshipping our Father with a clean and pure heart washed by the blood of His Son and our Lord! It's glorious!
People can give all kinds of philosophical talks....give all kinds of religious reasons for things...but none of them come close to knowing Him....and His great redemption and love for us.
There is nothing like Him!!!! Jesus is Lord!...and He is mighty to save!
There is absolutely no evidence that John addressed unbelieving gnostics in 1 John 1:5-10. Nothing grammatical, contextual, historical, scriptural, or otherwise. That is an idea invented by Joseph Prince.
It's very clear that in those verses John was teaching believers (his little children) spiritual principles and truths that the apostles had learned firsthand from Jesus, so that those believers wouldn't sin. 'We' in these verses clearly refers to the apostles, yet what they had learned from Christ and taught in those verses has application to all believers.
And this is the message which we [apostles] have heard from [Jesus] and announce to you [believers], that God is light and there [is] no darkness in him at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us [our] sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing these [things] to you in order that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous [one], 1 John 1:5-10, 2:1
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F
Your ignorance is showing as usual. I have an old NIV study bible of mine right here in my hand, which was published before Prince was even born I imagine, and right in the introduction to first John it explains, “John’s readers were confronted with an early form of Gnostic teaching of the Cerinthian variety…."
That's not in question. John was obviously addressing gnostic teachings that had infiltrated the church, but he wasn't addressing gnostics themselves because they had already left the church.
Thanks for proving my point further.
Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they went out], in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19
Thanks for proving my point further.
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F
That's not in question. John was obviously addressing gnostic teachings that had infiltrated the church, but he wasn't addressing gnostics themselves because they had already left the church.
Thanks for proving my point further.
Children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But [they went out], in order that it might be shown that all of them are not of us. 1 John 2:18-19
Thanks for proving my point further.
Amen..I have found the "legalistic mindset" in pentecosptal , charismatic and the so-called WOFers...and in the so-called "grace community" too... and in reality just about every group..I don't think it's limited to one group as it is a mindset which we all need to be on guard and be watchful of...as it is a deceitful little creature.....it has the "appearance of good"..but denies the power of Christ.
I have a lot of empathy with you. Imagine I walk down a street and see a pretty girl. Lots of emotions run through me.
But it then strikes me. I have seen this girl like I would look at a road, or a poster on a wall. My brain analyses the image and makes a few suggestions. Now I have a choice, do I encourage these suggestions, self indulge, fall into lust, fantasy, or just look at something else.
Now how you respond is how you spend your private time, what you watch, what you aspire to, what you encourage. It is part of your identity and biology and how you repress desire or know who you are. Depending on how you have become and how you regard sex and attraction dictates how you react. It takes preparation, understanding, sowing and reaping to become something else. It is what Jesus asks us to do, not to be instant responders but to be children of our Father.
What the sermon on the mount shows up is how much effort you have put into this walk and how aware you are of yourself.
You obviously gave up, and feel it is all a lost cause. I did not. I have had my trials, my failures, but I have changed and have understood how I am a victim as well as participant. Jesus does bring victory, but it needs lots and lots of things to walk this road, but it is what we are called to.
Hyper-grace is just a cop-out.
Dear reader, if you want to appreciate the condemnation of hyper-gracers just read their positions.
They believe they are walking in sin, but can never be otherwise. To not accept this is evil. Evil has now be redefined as not accepting their belief system and saying morality matters. The prisons of this world are full of people who believe and live this way, it is lawlessness.
It is very odd that those who feel they only point to Christ want to declare the righteous as evil. I would say they are doing satans work for him.
They believe they are walking in sin, but can never be otherwise. To not accept this is evil. Evil has now be redefined as not accepting their belief system and saying morality matters. The prisons of this world are full of people who believe and live this way, it is lawlessness.
It is very odd that those who feel they only point to Christ want to declare the righteous as evil. I would say they are doing satans work for him.