The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace
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All of us went through this "discovery" way back in 7th grade when we started showering with other boys in PE. And we all have known about the tapes, rings, and weights for years. And those procedures take a very minimum of two to three YEARS to show any additional covering. Hardly an acceptable time for a young athlete to wait, in order to compete.
And it is still not a REVERSAL of the procedure.
And it is still not a REVERSAL of the procedure.
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The Gospel of Grace focuses on one's identity IN CHRIST and HIS incorruptible spiritual nature.
sheesh.
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As much as I love communicating about Jesus and His Grace, I need to go. Laundry, sorting, filing, phone calls, and general tidying are on the agenda today - I must get my house in order and the holiday weekend is really over now
. I may or may not pop in later . . . I have so much to do while I'm home this week . . .
My prayer is that each of you would continue to press in to Christ and who you are in Him.
Grace and peace to you as you continue on with the discussion!
Much love in Christ,
-JGIG
sheesh.
_______________________
As much as I love communicating about Jesus and His Grace, I need to go. Laundry, sorting, filing, phone calls, and general tidying are on the agenda today - I must get my house in order and the holiday weekend is really over now
. I may or may not pop in later . . . I have so much to do while I'm home this week . . .My prayer is that each of you would continue to press in to Christ and who you are in Him.
Grace and peace to you as you continue on with the discussion!
Much love in Christ,
-JGIG
Sure it is. Circumcision is just a seal/sign of the covenant. The body of flesh wasn't literally cut away in the circumcision of the heart, as you folks are trying to prove. It simply means that a person has entered into covenant with GOD and received the holy spirit. That can be undone when a person willfully walks contrary to the covenant.
I can understand your view. I personally don't take the view that "everything said " is for me directly. And we all can be influenced by deceiving spirits to some degree or other.
BUT I respect your opinion to be offended by his words...
Jesus words to the religious people were not "very gracious"...I'm a firm believer in not taking some else's medicine.
Here is a great article about taking someone else's medicine when the word of God is preached...like in the certain words of Jesus that He spoke to different groups of people.
Whose Medicine are You Taking? The Dangers of Taking Scripture Out of Context – Escape to Reality
I hope you have a great day and God bless you!
BUT I respect your opinion to be offended by his words...
Jesus words to the religious people were not "very gracious"...I'm a firm believer in not taking some else's medicine.
Here is a great article about taking someone else's medicine when the word of God is preached...like in the certain words of Jesus that He spoke to different groups of people.
Whose Medicine are You Taking? The Dangers of Taking Scripture Out of Context – Escape to Reality
I hope you have a great day and God bless you!
I'm not sure I feel personally offended at all, really. He's entitled to his view. I don't like the approach particularly though; it's a bit primitive.
All I was ever doing was provide examples of ungracious words by these guys, which JGIG, who seemed outraged at Phil's suggestion that any of these guys would speak in such a way, wanted examples of. I chose two names from her list. There are others. Clark Whitten writes of "rock-throwing, mean-spirited, dimwitted legalists who fill modern Christian churches" - who fill them.
You agree that they are not gracious by referring to Jesus' words (which, incidentally, I don't believe those of these guys are on a par with). So there's nothing left to discuss - on this score, at least.
Thanks for the article; I like the car!
Sorry if this hasn't been very legible; the font colour seems stuck on light grey!
Hi JGIG,
Thanks for your reply. You're "guessing the tone [Rob Rufus takes] ... is similarly misrepresented by [me]"? JGIG, it's wonderful that you have experienced as much of the amazing grace of God as you clearly have. Couldn't you have extended a little of it to me until you had the opportunity to read his words, giving me the benefit of the doubt in the meantime? Now I'm feeling misrepresented!
I read the chapter again just now and have to say I agree with the overwhelming majority of what Rob Rufus writes in it. But for the bit at the beginning of the chapter, he's right!
The words I quoted come in the introduction, three self-contained passages forming a whole, so to quote them in full is also to provide the context. Let me say again that I endorse what he goes on to say in the rest of the chapter. And he provides examples of people who are lost today having experienced legalism in the past. I know of cases where this has happened, too. Anyway, let me quote those three paragraphs.
I cannot teach on the grace of God without addressing those who oppose grace. Grace is awesome in its power to change lives. But radical change encounters radical opposition. It is therefore not surprising that we have to deal with the grace haters.
Grace haters are the legalists who will try to intimidate, manipulate and dominate people with a spirit of witchcraft. The religious spirit in them wants everyone stereotyped and conformed to their own bondage. They are parrots and puppets, no longer voices for God, but echoes, not pursuing God but pursuing opportunities for position and prestige. They are cloned to act the same, dress the same and speak in the same religious tones. You know, where everyone looks the same you can be sure a religious spirit is operating!
If you try to live in the grace of God, I guarantee Satan will send his agent across your path to try to intimidate you and insinuate that you ought not to be living the way you are, that your freedom is not freedom at all but licentiousness. If you haven't experienced this sort of thing it's probably because you have never lived in grace.
So as I don't share the views of my hyper-grace brothers and sisters, the moment I express my opinion I hate grace, intimidate, manipulate and dominate the people I am discussing things with with a spirit of witchcraft. I'm evidently not pursuing God either, but pursuing prestige and power. JGIG, this is so not the case.
It is hard to imagine less gracious words. You asked Phil36 "WHAT preachers? NAME them. SHOW EXAMPLES of their lack of grace." Well, I think we have examples here.
Thanks for your reply. You're "guessing the tone [Rob Rufus takes] ... is similarly misrepresented by [me]"? JGIG, it's wonderful that you have experienced as much of the amazing grace of God as you clearly have. Couldn't you have extended a little of it to me until you had the opportunity to read his words, giving me the benefit of the doubt in the meantime? Now I'm feeling misrepresented!
I read the chapter again just now and have to say I agree with the overwhelming majority of what Rob Rufus writes in it. But for the bit at the beginning of the chapter, he's right!
The words I quoted come in the introduction, three self-contained passages forming a whole, so to quote them in full is also to provide the context. Let me say again that I endorse what he goes on to say in the rest of the chapter. And he provides examples of people who are lost today having experienced legalism in the past. I know of cases where this has happened, too. Anyway, let me quote those three paragraphs.
I cannot teach on the grace of God without addressing those who oppose grace. Grace is awesome in its power to change lives. But radical change encounters radical opposition. It is therefore not surprising that we have to deal with the grace haters.
Grace haters are the legalists who will try to intimidate, manipulate and dominate people with a spirit of witchcraft. The religious spirit in them wants everyone stereotyped and conformed to their own bondage. They are parrots and puppets, no longer voices for God, but echoes, not pursuing God but pursuing opportunities for position and prestige. They are cloned to act the same, dress the same and speak in the same religious tones. You know, where everyone looks the same you can be sure a religious spirit is operating!
If you try to live in the grace of God, I guarantee Satan will send his agent across your path to try to intimidate you and insinuate that you ought not to be living the way you are, that your freedom is not freedom at all but licentiousness. If you haven't experienced this sort of thing it's probably because you have never lived in grace.
So as I don't share the views of my hyper-grace brothers and sisters, the moment I express my opinion I hate grace, intimidate, manipulate and dominate the people I am discussing things with with a spirit of witchcraft. I'm evidently not pursuing God either, but pursuing prestige and power. JGIG, this is so not the case.
It is hard to imagine less gracious words. You asked Phil36 "WHAT preachers? NAME them. SHOW EXAMPLES of their lack of grace." Well, I think we have examples here.
Hi kohelet....did you ever have a chance to see Rob's video describing where he talks about the religious and political spirit? As Jesus said.." Beware of the leaven of the pharisses and Saducees and the leaven of Herod " This may help in understanding where he is coming from. I still wouldn't lump myself into what he said when describing the religious spirit..
Just because you don't share the same views does not mean that you are going to "act" like some that do go against it in a malicious way. Again..if I didn't do any of those things..I would not "put" myself in the same boat as the type of people being discussed.
But that is just me.....
When I first started to get understanding in this - I didn't take things being said personally because I wasn't getting or even agreeing with what was being said.
I read the passages you highlighted and I cannot see why someone would be offended by them..but everyone is different I guess. If I was guilty of any of those things Rob talks about..then I would be offended and take it personal for sure.
IS it possible you are "projecting"?...or maybe you take it as a personal offense against you and that is fine....then if the words offended someone then they would not appear to be gracious at all....that I agree with for sure...everyone has a different make-up...and are entitled to think in whatever way they want about things.
There are a lot of people that are wondering about all this "grace stuff"...and they come at it in a different attitude then the people that Rob was describing. Those are 2 different mindsets.
God bless you and have a great night!
Below is the video I was talking about if interested...
https://vimeo.com/11804054
Just because you don't share the same views does not mean that you are going to "act" like some that do go against it in a malicious way. Again..if I didn't do any of those things..I would not "put" myself in the same boat as the type of people being discussed.
But that is just me.....
When I first started to get understanding in this - I didn't take things being said personally because I wasn't getting or even agreeing with what was being said.
I read the passages you highlighted and I cannot see why someone would be offended by them..but everyone is different I guess. If I was guilty of any of those things Rob talks about..then I would be offended and take it personal for sure.
IS it possible you are "projecting"?...or maybe you take it as a personal offense against you and that is fine....then if the words offended someone then they would not appear to be gracious at all....that I agree with for sure...everyone has a different make-up...and are entitled to think in whatever way they want about things.
There are a lot of people that are wondering about all this "grace stuff"...and they come at it in a different attitude then the people that Rob was describing. Those are 2 different mindsets.
God bless you and have a great night!
Below is the video I was talking about if interested...
https://vimeo.com/11804054
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What I find staggering about these hyper-grace teachers is they have no grasp that they could be 100% understood.
There construct is so complete, they are convinced it is true, because everything you say to them is either a legalist or it is the Spirit if you agree with them. Anything about law is condemning so legalist, anything about positive acceptance with no limits is grace.
The problem they have is for them to fail to accept Moses, the prophets as brothers in the Lord. They are the old covenant so legalists and lost. But God sent these people with His Holy Spirit, guided and given His word. Unless you can include this reality in your views, you have left the Lord. But that is such an emotional contradiction to their own conviction, they simply cannot accept they could be wrong or deceived.
But I know I am mortal, limited and fallen, so am very capable of being deceived. You know if you have been deceived if the basics of love and life are denied. Sin is sin and good is good. But for these people this is not so. Only through Christ is anything good, though Christ sent His word through the prophets as the Father.
And a recurring theme is conviction of sin is evil, satan accusing the brethren, and repentance of sin is no longer turning from sin but just changing your mind and calling out to God. This may sound very appealing, but so does Muhammed, and Hindu gurus, Mormons, Christian Science etc. it does not make it Gods truth or reality.
But when you question these believers, they just blank you, spiel yet more propoganda and talk about sin and evil that is not sin and evil but just a different spiritual perspective than their own. Delusions this deep do not go away easily or necessarily ever.
There construct is so complete, they are convinced it is true, because everything you say to them is either a legalist or it is the Spirit if you agree with them. Anything about law is condemning so legalist, anything about positive acceptance with no limits is grace.
The problem they have is for them to fail to accept Moses, the prophets as brothers in the Lord. They are the old covenant so legalists and lost. But God sent these people with His Holy Spirit, guided and given His word. Unless you can include this reality in your views, you have left the Lord. But that is such an emotional contradiction to their own conviction, they simply cannot accept they could be wrong or deceived.
But I know I am mortal, limited and fallen, so am very capable of being deceived. You know if you have been deceived if the basics of love and life are denied. Sin is sin and good is good. But for these people this is not so. Only through Christ is anything good, though Christ sent His word through the prophets as the Father.
And a recurring theme is conviction of sin is evil, satan accusing the brethren, and repentance of sin is no longer turning from sin but just changing your mind and calling out to God. This may sound very appealing, but so does Muhammed, and Hindu gurus, Mormons, Christian Science etc. it does not make it Gods truth or reality.
But when you question these believers, they just blank you, spiel yet more propoganda and talk about sin and evil that is not sin and evil but just a different spiritual perspective than their own. Delusions this deep do not go away easily or necessarily ever.
Thanks for the link to the video, Grace777. I didn't see it.
As for what Rob Rufus says and how I respond to it, I don't take it personally at all, to tell you the truth. But he does say that it is those who "oppose grace" (by which he means the variety of grace he teaches, of course) who he addresses.
So if, for example, I argue against the notion that 1 Jn. 1 was written to gnostics, saying that it can't be because John says that the heretics "went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us" (2:19) and that they weren't gnostics anyway because gnosticism wouldn't become a fully-developed system until the second century and John's epistles were written shortly after his gospel, which he wrote between AD70 - AD90, then on the basis of what he says, people like me need to be addressed and dealt with. We're grace haters.
We could discuss whether or not I'm a sensitive kind of fellow and could I perhaps be projecting but it's better to stick to the things he says, think objectively about them and tease out the implications - which I think are pretty plain.
Anyway, it's nonsense to say that I'm a bitter and twisted legalist - nothing could be further from the truth - and let him vent if it makes him feel better. There will always be people like this; the rest of us get on with what God is doing in us and through us, blessing us ridiculously in the process. That, of course, is what it's all about.
As for what Rob Rufus says and how I respond to it, I don't take it personally at all, to tell you the truth. But he does say that it is those who "oppose grace" (by which he means the variety of grace he teaches, of course) who he addresses.
So if, for example, I argue against the notion that 1 Jn. 1 was written to gnostics, saying that it can't be because John says that the heretics "went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us" (2:19) and that they weren't gnostics anyway because gnosticism wouldn't become a fully-developed system until the second century and John's epistles were written shortly after his gospel, which he wrote between AD70 - AD90, then on the basis of what he says, people like me need to be addressed and dealt with. We're grace haters.
We could discuss whether or not I'm a sensitive kind of fellow and could I perhaps be projecting but it's better to stick to the things he says, think objectively about them and tease out the implications - which I think are pretty plain.
Anyway, it's nonsense to say that I'm a bitter and twisted legalist - nothing could be further from the truth - and let him vent if it makes him feel better. There will always be people like this; the rest of us get on with what God is doing in us and through us, blessing us ridiculously in the process. That, of course, is what it's all about.
You are welcome...
I understand what you are saying and I respect it. It might be interesting to pose the question on the website and see what type of an answer they would give you. I would be shocked if they said that you are a grace hater because you believe 1 John 1 was not for the gnostics just on that basis alone.
Here is the website if you are inclined to do an experiment...it might be interesting to try other grace based ministries as well and see what they would say..
Here is the Hong Kong City Church website for questions and answers...you may have to register in order to pose a question..not sure...I hope you have a great rest of your night! Bless you and yes I agree that God does bless us ridiculously. He is awesome!
Q&A
I understand what you are saying and I respect it. It might be interesting to pose the question on the website and see what type of an answer they would give you. I would be shocked if they said that you are a grace hater because you believe 1 John 1 was not for the gnostics just on that basis alone.
Here is the website if you are inclined to do an experiment...it might be interesting to try other grace based ministries as well and see what they would say..
Here is the Hong Kong City Church website for questions and answers...you may have to register in order to pose a question..not sure...I hope you have a great rest of your night! Bless you and yes I agree that God does bless us ridiculously. He is awesome!
Q&A
No, there isn't! Trying to finish in the flesh what was begun in the Spirit will get us nowhere.
But some of us, though having received the Holy Spirit, are still struggling to find a way to save our lives instead of picking up our cross and following. We sometimes have to go through many cycles of trying to be good - failing - depression - trying again - failure - depression, before we stop trying and say, I give up and if there will be any victory and any growth in virtue and holiness, You will have to do it. Please have mercy on me and give me victory over my enemies because my own hand will never bring me victory.
Discernment is necessary, to see where someone is. It doesn't mean they haven't received the Holy Spirit if they aren't where we are yet. The renewing of our mind does not all happen in an instant. Jesus healed a blind man and then asked him what do you see? He said, well, I see something that looks like trees, but because of the way they're moving, I think they must be men. Then Jesus "tinkered" some more and the man saw more clearly.
Did Jesus goof up and need two attempts to heal his blindness? No. It's a story for us, to explain a spiritual thing!
We shouldn't expect all to be at the same stage, all seeing equally as well from day one, as if any one of us isn't in need of more that he has to tell us but we cannot yet bear it. And we should be more careful when we call each other liars and false teachers. It takes discernment and gentleness.
And love covers a multitude of sins.
And anything we say without love for each other will be things we need to answer for on an upcoming day.
So fear God and walk and talk humbly with each other and let Him work.
But some of us, though having received the Holy Spirit, are still struggling to find a way to save our lives instead of picking up our cross and following. We sometimes have to go through many cycles of trying to be good - failing - depression - trying again - failure - depression, before we stop trying and say, I give up and if there will be any victory and any growth in virtue and holiness, You will have to do it. Please have mercy on me and give me victory over my enemies because my own hand will never bring me victory.
Discernment is necessary, to see where someone is. It doesn't mean they haven't received the Holy Spirit if they aren't where we are yet. The renewing of our mind does not all happen in an instant. Jesus healed a blind man and then asked him what do you see? He said, well, I see something that looks like trees, but because of the way they're moving, I think they must be men. Then Jesus "tinkered" some more and the man saw more clearly.
Did Jesus goof up and need two attempts to heal his blindness? No. It's a story for us, to explain a spiritual thing!
We shouldn't expect all to be at the same stage, all seeing equally as well from day one, as if any one of us isn't in need of more that he has to tell us but we cannot yet bear it. And we should be more careful when we call each other liars and false teachers. It takes discernment and gentleness.
And love covers a multitude of sins.
And anything we say without love for each other will be things we need to answer for on an upcoming day.
So fear God and walk and talk humbly with each other and let Him work.
That's just more contextual evidence against the notion that John wrote to the gnostics. I think Prince first came up with this idea in his book, Destined to Reign because his whole doctrine falls apart without it. That's why new.modern.hyper grace devotees are so desperate to defend it, even though they can't.
Is Joseph Prince's Radical Grace Teaching Biblical? — Charisma News
Nor has anyone here. Nor can they.
Is Joseph Prince's Radical Grace Teaching Biblical? — Charisma News
"Although Prince acknowledges that this passage [1 John 1:9] refutes his teaching on radical grace, he tries to get around it by saying this passage was written to the gnostics in the church—something he states without citing any commentaries, sources or historical evidence".
Nor has anyone here. Nor can they.
I get the feeling that many (most?) new.modern.hyper grace believers came out of hyper legalistic churches, and are now swinging the other way in hyper fashion. Thus their false dichotomy that views life through the "lens" of their former spiritual abuse, and their straw man argument that is based on their former enslavement.
Today I thought of a new name it claim it reality.
In Jesus we are to name our righteousness is Christ and walk in it. If we cannot do this we need to bow our knees and ask Jesus to help us see our problems so we can begin to walk in victory.
Our first emotional response to anything is just that. It is not wrong or evil or defines who we are. What defines who we are is what we do with the response and how we choose to think and behave. That is what defines love and grace, walking with the Lord. These people believe they should respond "perfectly" without realising they are humans who have natural reflexes and systems which dictate how we feel given certain triggers.
Unfortunately this is a very religious belief system, thinking God made us like we are. We are products of a fallen sinful world, literally, passed from generation to generation.
This is not how things should be, rather than we are flawed products of biology and systems which Christ is purchasing for His kingdom to be transformed into His likeness to shame the wise and powerful, and bring praise to His glorious name.
In Jesus we are to name our righteousness is Christ and walk in it. If we cannot do this we need to bow our knees and ask Jesus to help us see our problems so we can begin to walk in victory.
Our first emotional response to anything is just that. It is not wrong or evil or defines who we are. What defines who we are is what we do with the response and how we choose to think and behave. That is what defines love and grace, walking with the Lord. These people believe they should respond "perfectly" without realising they are humans who have natural reflexes and systems which dictate how we feel given certain triggers.
Unfortunately this is a very religious belief system, thinking God made us like we are. We are products of a fallen sinful world, literally, passed from generation to generation.
This is not how things should be, rather than we are flawed products of biology and systems which Christ is purchasing for His kingdom to be transformed into His likeness to shame the wise and powerful, and bring praise to His glorious name.