The New Apostolic Reformation THE TRUTH

[zone]

I don't believe in modern apostles like in the NT.

But your claim that God didn't speak verbatim through anyone in the NT is incorrect and the only way you can uphold that claim is to split hairs.

Nice razor by the way

no still. its not hair splitting.

find a single instance in the NT where Jesus' words are recorded where He Himself is not recorded speaking them (even if in a visit to the Lord's Day by John): where is there anyone in the NT that opens their mouths and the words of Christ come out First Person verbatim ("I say to you")?

its this critical. they are "channeling" spirits called "the Lord" and "God"!

what modern "prophetic" ministries claim - Christ speaking through their voices and vocal chords verbatim - was never done by ANY of the 12 or anyone else.

the only modern equivilent today are guys like Jesse Duplantis, Bobby Conners and Patricia King who claim to have visited heaven and had personal conversations with The Lord and transmit messages verbatim or paraphrased: i.e "...and then i was shown my mansion and the Lord said, "Jesse, i wanted you to know"...." etc.

 

[zone]

Rev2:7,17,29 3:6,13,22 He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches?

Revelation 1
12Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. 19Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. 20As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

it is Jesus Himself who speaks those words.

it is not John speaking those words. John recorded what Jesus said.

 

[shroom2]

it belongs on this thread.

OP:

Re: The New Apostolic Reformation THE TRUTH

the offices and gifts either continued or are being restored.
which is it?

They continued,and are still here.

 

[shroom2]

exactly what do you think QUALIFIED THE APOSTLES to preach the Gospel?

The gift ministries they had.

THEY HAD SEEN THE LIVE AND THE RISEN CHRIST.

without that their testimony would not be FIRST HAND.

they testified that HE HAD RISEN FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:32
God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

That is true. They saw him. But seeing the risen Christ is not a requirement for having a gift ministry. Christ gives the gift ministries:

Eph 4:
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

[shroom2]

'manifestation of prophecy'?

Yes. The manifestation of prophesy as opposed to the gift ministry of a prophet.

1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But if someone claiming to be a prophet claims to be speaking new revelation or doctrine, and it contradicts in any way God's written word, it's bogus.

that's why i challenge ANY continuationist to upload words from modern prophets.
let's see their prophecies.

Again, the gift ministry of a prophet is not the same as the manifestation of prophesy.

A prophet speaks for God. Like Agabus did. God told Agabus to warn Paul not to go to Jerusalem. The manifestation of prophesy is a believer speaking inspired words for the edification of the body of believers present.

Two different things....

 

[shroom2]

...they either continued, or they ceased and are being restored. which is it?
anyone?

As far as God is concerned, they continued. Nothing has changed since Pentecost.

So much that was clearly understood and practised in the early church has been lost or become obscured with the passage of time.


is this true?

Yes. Much was lost because people were talked out of it. People believed error rather than truth. There is a devil.

 

[zone]

They continued.

can you document prophets and apostles and miracles from the first century to today shroom?
we should have names and clear reports.

 

[zone]

As far as God is concerned, they continued. Nothing has changed since Pentecost.

Yes. Much was lost because people were talked out of it. People believed error rather than truth. There is a devil.

there should be a record of this.
anything...

 

[shroom2]

can you document prophets and apostles and miracles from the first century to today shroom?
we should have names and clear reports.

I could tell you about some healings in members of the fellowship I attend. Would you believe me?

I can't say I know any prophets or apostles. I will say (again) that most of the TV "prophets" and "apostles" are false. There is much error out there. That does not mean there aren't any genuine ones.

A prophet is simply a person who speaks for God. Like Agabus was. A prophet does not have to pronounce "new doctrine" in order to be a genuine prophet. He does not have to have a TV show. I venture to say that a real prophet will NOT have a TV show. Agabus was a prophet. He foretold what would happen to Paul if he went to Jerusalem. Paul went anyway. It happened.

An apostle is a person who brings new light to his generation. It may well be old light, but it is new TO HIS GENERATION. If people have never heard it, it is new to them. The bible is the source for truth. The things taught by an apostle will not EVER contradict God's word.

The manifestation of prophesy is a born again believer speaking inspired words from God or Christ to the body of believers present for their edification. It is never foretelling, but forthtelling: bringing forth. It is never "God told me to tell you....".

 

[shroom2]

there should be a record of this.
anything...

It was happening by the end of Paul's ministry:

2 Tim 1:15) This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

 

[zone]

N.A.R. statements:

We are not merely to have the message of the Kingdom, but become the message.​

We are to be living epistles and God's Word incarnate if we are to meet the needs of this generation and become the army prophesied in Scripture.​

--Bob Jones & Paul Keith Davis, "The Light of Favor and Grace is Upon Us. And Doubt Not, Have Faith to Move Mountains," 1/17/07, TheElijahList ​

Where religion has reigned now get ready for God's government to reign. This government will prepare a way for the Kingdom to come in the Body of Christ out of the innermost part of the sons and daughters.​

--Bob Jones, "The Keys 22:22," 8/13/10, TheElijahList​

 

[zone]

The bible is the source for truth.

why not just preach from it faithfully and let The Holy Spirit work?

 

[zone]

Mike Bickle NAR has authored several books one of which is his book Growing in the Prophetic. Bickle's core teaching is concerning the return of Christ. Out of the book of Revelation he lifts certain key elements of his message (more about this in Part 2). He stated on a CBN interview the following, which seems to encapsulate Bickle's essential message: "God doesn't send his Son into a vacuum. God sends his Son in answer to a consistent global cry from the church."

Bickle continued: "God prophesies a day that the church in its identity as the bride of Christ will work in union with the Holy Spirit beckoning Christ to return.... The world-wide church will become in sync with the Holy Spirit crying out 'Come Lord Jesus, break in! break in!' and so Jesus will then come in His second coming and before that He will release a revival... the church will be interceding together [globally] just before the Lord returns. That is one of the great signs in Revelation of the second coming." (Note he references the IHOP teaching on Bridal Paradigm and allegorizes of the Song of Solomon[10]).

Elevating the Latter Rain teaching of the Tabernacle of David to a functional level of impelling Jesus to return is behind the whole rational of the 24/7 of IHOP. It really becomes the way the church can force or at least entice Jesus to return. (See my article, "The Restoration of Davidic Warfare/Worship," Plumbline, Vol. 7, No. 4, Sept/Oct 2002). The Tabernacle of David (TOD) teaching, which Bob Jones prophesied would be restored at IHOP, is not new to IHOP, but clearly is a part of the restoration scheme of the old Latter Rain cult teachers of the early 50's.

George Warnock, Latter Rain teacher of the 50's, often referred to the TOD. The so-called 24/7 TOD teaching is just a companion piece of the whole restoration scheme in which Apostles and Prophets claim to be "restored" to the final overcoming end-time church. Along with "restored" apostles and prophets, the Latter Rain TOD is " restored" after a supposed appearance in the first century which is now applied to the last days.

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2011/07/ihop-enters-dominionchristian-right.html

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

i have done some research on cessationism versus continuationism...

according to early christian records... speaking in tongues seems to have continued at least into the late second century but probably ceased by the third century and definitely by the fourth century... healings seem to have continued at least into the middle of the third century and ceased by the late fourth century... and prophecy appears to have continued until at least the middle of the third century and there is ambiguity as to when it ceased if ever...

however there are credible reports from the early fifth century of a major revival of healings and other miracles...

 

[zone]

1947 William Branham's ministry was beginning to be widely accepted until his death in 1965. Coined phrase "Latter Rain"

1947 George Hawtin & Percy Hunt run the Sharon Orphanage: Read F. Hall's book & see Branham's ministry. Fast & Pray according to Hall's principals for one year and begin to teach Hall's principles at their Bible School. Elim Bible Institute also is teaching Restoration at this time with no apparent connection with N. Battleford.

1948 George Hawtin teaches on the Restoration of Apostles & Prophets to the Body of Christ to the Sharon Assembly. That same year Israel becomes a nation again.

1948 young woman prophesies at great revival is about to take place at the school

1948 Sharon camp meeting, 1000's attend and the teachings of the Latter Rain begin to be widely taught among Pentecostals. Including doctrine of laying on of hands for Holy Ghost Baptism, Apostles & Prophets, Present Day Truth concept, Ascension Gifts

1956 Assembly of God begins to denounce Latter Rain Doctrines as Heretical and movement dies down

Latter Rain Doctrines Become Prominent Again in Word of Faith & Kingdom Now Ministries

Some of the Modern Day Prophets & Apostles
(Restoration of the Ascension Gifts)
Kenneth Hagin - Apostle/Prophet
Kenneth Copeland - Prophet
Paul Cain - Prophet (past associate of William Branham)
Frank Hammond - Prophet (largely responsible for Prophetic Movement & started "School of the Prophets")
Bernard Jordan - Prophet
Rick Joyner - Prophet
Bob Jones - Prophet (Vineyard Church)
Alan Vincent - Apostle Turnel Nelson - Apostle Jefferson Edwards - Apostle/Prophet

Prophetic Movement
(1985-1991- ongoing)
Frank Hammond
Bernard Jordan
Rick Joyner
Kansas City Five Prophets

Signs & Wonders
Benny Hinn Ministries
Mehesh Chavda
Morris Cerello
Rodney Howard Browne
Toronto Airport Church (formerly Toronto Vineyard)

Apostolic Movement
(1991-ongoing)
Archbishop Earl Paulk
Archbishop Benson Idahosa
Alan Vincent Turnel Nelson

Vineyard Church Movement
John Wimber

Laughing Movement
Rodney Howard Brown
Randy Clark John Arnott (Toronto Vineyard)
From Toronto Airport Church to various churches world-wide

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/modern.htm​

 

[shroom2]

why not just preach from it faithfully and let The Holy Spirit work?

Why not make use of the tools God placed in the church (gift ministries) and gave to every believer (manifestations of holy spirit)?

g'nite, zone.

 

[zone]

PETER WAGNER ON THE NAR

“Prophets can do certain very good things on their own. No question. Apostles can do very good things on their own. But if they’re hitched together, they can change the world…Now the fundamental issue I want to talk about this morning is church government. Church government is the harness that keeps these horses together…”


“Now fortunately, the government of the Church began to come into place in a significant way in the 1990s. By the government of the church, I’m referring to Ephesians 4, chapter 11. The main verse for the government of the Church where it said that Jesus gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists… “


“Now we’ve had pastors and teachers for a long time…Evangelists have been around for a long time, but prophets and apostles are relatively newcomers on the scene and prophets began to arise and be accepted widely in the Body of Christ in the 1980s and apostles began to arise and be accepted in the Body of Christ in the 1990s. So they came into place in the last century…”


“The whole movement based on prophets and apostles that has now emerged as a new wineskin that God is giving to the Body of Christ is called the New Apostolic Reformation…That’s what we’re in right now…”


“Folks, we here sitting in this room are members of the first generation in the history of Christianity that has the realistic potential of completing the Great Commission…So the government is in place. The harness is on…Apostles are crucial…”


“The New Apostolic Reformation is the most radical change in the way of doing church since the Protestant Reformation…”


“How did I get the idea that I was a apostle?...As far back as I can find back in the prophetic journal, the first prophecy I ever had that used the word ‘apostle’ came from Cindy Jacobs…This was July of 1995…”


Wagner, Nat’l School of the Prophets 2000 Conference, Tape #1, Thurs., May 11, 2000

 

[zone]

Todd Bentley's Apostolic and Prophetic Commissioning 3/4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBnnpiV1nlo&feature=related

NAR Apostles and Prophets in attendance
Rick Joyner (NAR/Knight of Malta) at 12 seconds, white hair and beard.

"Peter Wagner, along with 16 others, laid hands upon Todd Bentley, commissioning him as an evangelist, and prophesying that what had begun was going to continue to grow and intensify. Wagner's organization, International Coalition of Apostles (ICA), was represented in that 13 people who participated in this endorsement of Bentley were deemed to be apostles by the organization."

 

[1still_waters]

no still. its not hair splitting.

find a single instance in the NT where Jesus' words are recorded where He Himself is not recorded speaking them (even if in a visit to the Lord's Day by John): where is there anyone in the NT that opens their mouths and the words of Christ come out First Person verbatim ("I say to you")?

its this critical. they are "channeling" spirits called "the Lord" and "God"!

what modern "prophetic" ministries claim - Christ speaking through their voices and vocal chords verbatim - was never done by ANY of the 12 or anyone else.

the only modern equivilent today are guys like Jesse Duplantis, Bobby Conners and Patricia King who claim to have visited heaven and had personal conversations with The Lord and transmit messages verbatim or paraphrased: i.e "...and then i was shown my mansion and the Lord said, "Jesse, i wanted you to know"...." etc.

I don't see how Jesus saying his stuff directly through writing is different than him saying it directly through the vocal cords.

That's called hair splitting .

 

[zone]

I don't see how Jesus saying his stuff directly through writing is different than him saying it directly through the vocal cords.

That's called hair splitting .

ok.
but are there any examples in the NT where anyone except Jesus opened their mouths and Jesus' own words came out in First Person?

i can't find any.

i do see alot of this kind of thing though:

Anyone who has the gift of prophecy, or has been called as a prophet, will understand when I say that I did not want to make this post. But the voice of the Lord is not insistent, but rather quietly leading one to do as He wishes. I have from the Lord that I am not to answer critical words any more. So, in obedience to Him, hear these words or not.

In Christ

The testing has started. The dross will be removed from the gold and silver. Those who will not come to Me will not get many more chances. Those who lie about Me will grow even harder in their hearts. Those who do not love Me will go astray, and stumble, and fall. And My servants will prevail, just as I prevailed.

I set a choice before you, with a question. Do you love Me? Will you follow Me? Will you become My servants? Or will you continue to love the knowledge of Me? Will you still follow what you believe? Will you still serve yourself and your pride? Will you live in Me?

Not all that you believe is from Me. And not all that you do is pleasing in My sight. And not all that you say or think is of faith. But My servants will not be so in the days to come. Everything they believe will be from Me, and they will speak My words, and they will do the things that are pleasing in My sight. And I will love them.

I hate your assemblies. I loath your offerings. I despise your service. Your prayers I do not hear, because they are for your own lusts. Your hands are dirty, and your lips have become numb. Your ears do not hear, nor do your eyes see. Who among you has a soft heart? Who is seeking truth in My Father's presence? Who has lost themselves for Me and to Me? Who has lost every other love, to know My love? Who has become My servant?

I am coming quickly. I am coming with a sword. I am coming to make war, to make an end, a complete ending of all the lies. I am coming to reward My servants, and to gather those who love My appearing. Will you be ashamed at My appearing, or will you have great joy? Either way, I am coming quickly.

is Jesus speaking in the First Person voice through prophets today?

pure blasphemy.