The New Covenant Wine Is All of God’s Word

[just-us-2]

7) Give terms of the covenant. Both parties to the covenant stand before a witness and list all of their assets and liabilities, because each one takes all of these upon himself. You are saying, "Everything I have is yours and everything you have is mine. If something happens to you, your covenant partner will see to it that your wife and children are taken care of.

And.....


7) GIVE THE COVENANT TERMS: Jesus gives the terms of the covenant in the whole Bible. It is our responsibility to know it so that we can live by it.

 

[Eldora]

Yea, my Brother and member of the Body of Christ. We must not ever take any matter more serious. God gives Intellect. Yea! Yea! Yea! You have received much of your gifts, which may, last for ever. Peace and glory and praise and power to our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.............That is That

 

[just-us-2]

8) Eat the memorial meal. A loaf of bread is broken in half. Each feeds his half to the other saying, "This is my body, and I am now giving it to you." Then they take wine as a symbol of his blood and says, "This is my blood which is now your blood."

And..............


8) EAT MEMORIAL MEAL: I Corinthians 11: 23-26, "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, `This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

 

[just-us-2]

9) Plant a memorial tree. The two then plant a tree as a memorial to the covenant and sprinkle it with the blood of the animal that was killed for the covenant offering.

And..........


9) PLANT A MEMORIAL TREE: The cross that Jesus died on was the tree that the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled on and it still is a memorial of His covenant with us to this day. This is our covenant with the God of the universe. He will live up to His end and He expects us to live up to ours.”


These nine steps do not have to take place in the same order that they are listed here. There are a lot of covenants listed in the Bible and there is not great detail about them because everyone is familiar with the procedure and the writer assumes that we know what was done.

 

[Maynard]

8) Eat the memorial meal. A loaf of bread is broken in half. Each feeds his half to the other saying, "This is my body, and I am now giving it to you." Then they take wine as a symbol of his blood and says, "This is my blood which is now your blood."

And..............

8) EAT MEMORIAL MEAL: I Corinthians 11: 23-26, "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, `This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.' In the same way He took the cup also, after supper, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

Hi,

Where'd you get that? It is terribly misguided. Christ did not leave us a mere "symbol" of his body and blood. Where does Jesus or Paul or any Church Father ever say that the Eucharist is a mere symbol?? To the contrary, they always reinforce the Real Presence of Jesus in this meal, called the Eucharist, instituted by our Lord himself.

Jesus to the Apostles:
And when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, 'This IS my body, which is for you; Do this in remembrance of me."

Paul to the Corinthians:
"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?"
1 Cor:10

and to those who do not believe in the "Real Presence" of Christ in the Eucharist, Paul says:
"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For all who eat and drink without discerning the body (who do not believe that it is truly His body and blood), eat and drink judgment against themselves."
1 Cor:11

Yes, the early Church was very strict in adhering to the belief of the True Presence in the Eucharist.

Jesus speaking at the synagogue:
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them."
[T]hey said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you?"

So then, does this offend you?


Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer (the Mass) because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).


Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


Cyprian of Carthage
"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).

Paul to the Corinthians:
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.


Yes, and so we must be very careful before receiving Holy Communion. First discern the body and blood of Christ which is present under the appearances of bread and wine in the Eucharist following the prayers of consecration by the priest (apostle). It is Christ's own body and blood.. and NOT a symbol. And receive it only after we have confessed all your sins, otherwise, as Paul says, you will be guilty of profaning the body of Christ and heaping judgement upon yourself. This obviously is no small matter.
Only following the Protestant reformation of the 1500's was the idea of "symbol" ever introduced (by protestants), and that was simply out of necessity for them because they left the Church and so have no priests (apostles) in the true succession of Peter who can consecrate the bread and wine. Protestants abandoned the Mass, and with it abandoned the body of Christ.


Aphraahat the Persian Sage
"After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink" (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).


Cyril of Jerusalem
"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7.
"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. [A.D. 350]


Saint Augustine
"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).
"That bread which you see on the altar [at the Mass], having been sanctified by the word of God [through the hands of the priest], is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ".
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411])

So then discern carefully the body of our Lord in the Eucharist. This is no mere "symbol".

Peace be with you.​

 

[just-us-2]

Hi,
Where'd you get that? It is terribly misguided. Christ did not leave us a mere "symbol" of his body and blood. Where does Jesus or Paul or any Church Father ever say that the Eucharist is a mere symbol?? To the contrary, they always reinforce the Real Presence of Jesus in this meal, called the Eucharist, instituted by our Lord himself.

So then discern carefully the body of our Lord in the Eucharist. This is no mere "symbol".
Peace be with you.

Maybe you didn’t read my opening post and therefore do not know that I said, “So, just to be upfront as I begin to post as I learn, I will ignore “doubtful disputations” …and that includes any denomination’s manmade doctrine. I could easily get sidetracked into finding fault with you and your doctrines that I feel are as false as what you just criticized me for. By that I mean your comment of, “Where'd you get that? It is terribly misguided.” As I said, I could get sidetracked but put briefly, I will ignore doctrine brought up to supposedly make me look ignorant and foolish, particularly when the writer is of a manmade denomination that teaches that my All Powerful God isn’t great enough to hear and answer prayers so he needs help from people that man has determined should be called ‘saints’ and even the mother of my Savior to help Him hear and answer prayers; a denomination who breaks another of God’s instructions by calling their priests ’father’… I could go on but it is sufficient to say that I wholeheartedly believe that there are good things in all “Christian” denominations and there are some bad things in them as well. This is a thread where I am sharing as I learn about the covenants of God. And I am discerning carefully.
And one more thing which is very important – if you want to make a legitimate point I suggest you use scripture to back it up not quotes from so-called saints. The scripture which you did give is scripture I could also give to illustrate things I believe, but picking at the word, “symbol” in this case is arguing semantics, something I doubt God approves of.
Now, I’m off to study more about the four types of covenants in the Bible and share what I learn with those who want to learn.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29: “but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God.”

 

[just-us-2]

Hi Just -us-2,

This may help as you study, read Genesis 15, I remember reading this an not understanding the significance of what was 'actually' going on here. There was a type of treaty that was well known in Abrahams time in the near east its called the 'suzerain treaty'. Hopefully this will help in your study. Abraham certainly would have known the significance of what was going on here.

As I read I found that the 'suzerain treaty' was used by a great many societies and while details may have been slightly different in the various societies, in general the 'suzerain' was the same as the covenant God made with Abraham.
Thank you for your input!

 

[Maynard]

“doubtful disputations” …and that includes any denomination’s manmade doctrine. I could easily get sidetracked into finding fault with you and your doctrines that I feel are as false as what you just criticized me for. By that I mean your comment of, “Where'd you get that? It is terribly misguided.”

It was a simple question, and not a criticism of you.

As I said, I could get sidetracked but put briefly, I will ignore doctrine brought up to supposedly make me look ignorant and foolish, particularly when the writer is of a manmade denomination.

Everything you posted is from such writers of "manmade denominations". The doctine of "symbolism" in regards to the Lord's Supper is something that came about in just the past 500 years following the birth of Protestantism. From Christ up until then, for over 1500 years in fact, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was never in doubt. Even Martin Luther did not doubt it but rather defended it (He was a Catholic priest for goodness sake!). It was those reformers that followed him who abandoned it. And they abandoned it necessarily since they no longer had any priests in their new-found churches to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Therefore for Protestants the "Supper of the Lord" has become a mere symbol, unfortunately for them since the Eucharist is the very source and summit of the Christian life.

Look at Church history from the time of Christ forward, just-us, and you will see. And those quotes which I posted for you (which you unfortunately disregard) are from Our Lord Jesus, Paul the Apostle, and those who succeeded the first Apostles. Those whom the first Apostles handed on their offices to. That succession of Apostles which existed then and still exists today in the One True Church (NOT a "manmade denomination"). They are those whom Christ gave authority to in His Church "until he comes again".

Best wishes on your search for the Truth, just-us. I pray that God gives you ears to hear.

God bless,

maynard

 

[just-me]

From post #45

Hi,
Where'd you get that? It is terribly misguided. Christ did not leave us a mere "symbol" of his body and blood. Where does Jesus or Paul or any Church Father ever say that the Eucharist is a mere symbol??

Post #46

Maybe you didn’t read my opening post and therefore do not know that I said, “So, just to be upfront as I begin to post as I learn, I will ignore “doubtful disputations” …and that includes any denomination’s manmade doctrine.

It was a simple question, and not a criticism of you.

Everything you posted is from such writers of "manmade denominations". The doctine of "symbolism" in regards to the Lord's Supper is something that came about in just the past 500 years following the birth of Protestantism.

I’ve attended protestant and Catholic churches. I don’t claim and denomination myself, but I also do not diminish a denomination that believes Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world. The “Lord’s Supper” in Protestantism is the same as “Eucharist” as far as I can tell.
From Christ up until then, for over 1500 years in fact, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist was never in doubt. Even Martin Luther did not doubt it but rather defended it (He was a Catholic priest for goodness sake!). It was those reformers that followed him who abandoned it.

Martin Luther began his prominence when the words came to Him “the just shall live by faith.” He then posted his thesis on the front door of the church. I’m a little confused as to what your problem might be with “covenant.”

And they abandoned it necessarily since they no longer had any priests in their new-found churches to consecrate the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. Therefore for Protestants the "Supper of the Lord" has become a mere symbol, unfortunately for them since the Eucharist is the very source and summit of the Christian life.

I was wondering if you were Roman Catholic which started in full swing under the ruler ship of Constantine. If the Jews were to become Christians they had to denounce all things Jewish. They would have to take an oath and pronounce themselves as cursed for eternity if they went back to believe anything of the Jewish persuasion.

Look at Church history from the time of Christ forward, just-us, and you will see. And those quotes which I posted for you (which you unfortunately disregard) are from Our Lord Jesus, Paul the Apostle, and those who succeeded the first Apostles. Those whom the first Apostles handed on their offices to. That succession of Apostles which existed then and still exists today in the One True Church (NOT a "manmade denomination"). They are those whom Christ gave authority to in His Church "until he comes again".
Best wishes on your search for the Truth, just-us. I pray that God gives you ears to hear.
God bless,
maynard

From what you wrote on post #45 I present to you scripture concerning the covenant with Abraham, and how it relates to salvation through Christ Jesus.

Leviticus 26:40-42 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP]If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Acts 3:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Galatians 3:14-16 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There is definitely a comparison with the covenant of Abraham which has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. It might be beneficial to present scripture with your next post to edify all who read this thread. What is it in church history are you referring to concerning “covenants?” I see old Testament being presented in the posts, and you are presenting New Testament. I have yet to see anything posted by Just-us-2 that is contrary to salvation in Christ, and I haven’t seen an endorsement of any particular denomination, other than that she is protestant. (I think). Before you wrote your first post I didn’t see anything to denounce Catholicism. What does just-us-2 have to hear I’m wondering? I don’t understand your exhortation that brings up denomination. Nevertheless, I praise your blessings toward her.

 

[just-us-2]

A few thoughts I had as I meditated upon the Blood Covenant:
Imagine what it would be like to wake up and see all those cut up animals laid out on the ground – the first thing that would have gone through my mind would probably be shock and horror at the sight of those bloody carcasses before me, unlike Abraham who would have instantly known that God was about to seal His promise to him in a very profound manner.

Leviticus 17:11 tells us why the Blood Covenant is so important: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life.”

In plain simplified terms, a blood covenant is a promise made by God that He will choose a people for Himself and bless them. Originally God made this covenant with Abraham and provided a way by which his physical descendants could enter into this covenant with Him and His friend, Abraham, by means of circumcision. Later, this was extended, spiritually, to all those who, like Abraham, ‘believe God’ Compare Galatians 3:7 (NAS) “Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham” with Genesis 15:6 (NAS) “Then he believed in the LORD ; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.” Because the physical is temporal, this extension had to be spiritual, which transcends time. God’s promise of eternal blessing is given only on the basis of faith in the saving blood of His Son, Jesus Christ Hebrews 9:11-12: “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation ; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”


It is obvious that centuries of time have dulled our realization of what a blood covenant is and our obligations as a participant. We seem to be quick to grasp and claim the benefits toward us but those “obligations” – another one of those words like “curses” that we like to think no longer apply to us. So, what are the terms of this Blood Covenant we are now in? Since in a blood covenant relationship everything you possess is freely available to your covenant partner and everything he possesses is now available to you, you only need to ask and it is yours. Just think – everything our Heavenly Father has is ours for the asking, assuming we keep our part of covenant. Then, why are constantly in a state of not getting what we pray for? Then of course, the opposite is true – everything God asks of us we are bound by covenant to do. Does it remind you a little of the story of young Samuel when God called to him and the little boy didn’t realize it was God at first but finally said, “… "Speak, for Your servant is listening"? Consider the gravity of that. And consider how often you have even heard the call, let alone replied as little Samuel did. I am duly ashamed of the number of times in my life that I didn’t hear my Heavenly Father’s call because I wasn’t listening for it. I do remember when I was in my teens that I felt a distinct longing to be closer to God and thought I wanted to be a nun…but there was no such thing as a Lutheran nun…besides, my multitude of Norwegian Lutheran relatives would have hog-tied me to keep me from turning Catholic so I could be a nun. Since then, I have learned what a mistake I escaped at the time by not converting to Catholicism so I could be a nun. I have also learned that Lutherans are not exactly on target either, in spite of my tremendous respect for Martin Luther and the fact that I was raised Lutheran. Then we moved hundreds of miles south of my old Wisconsin home and wouldn’t you know it – the Baptists down here have their flaws too. You see what I mean I’m sure.

There is a whole lot going on in the spiritual realm that we completely unaware of at the moment we accept the free gift of salvation. We know our sins are forgiven but we are told nothing about the fact that we have just chosen to be a part of the Blood Covenant between God, the Father and Jesus, His Son. We are certainly not told that we have certain binding obligations under this covenant.

From “Covenant God” by Dr. Trumbull:
“Salvation could only be by faith: God restoring the life man had lost; man in faith yielding himself to God's work and will. The first great work of God with man was to get him to believe. This work cost God more care and time and patience than we can easily conceive. All the dealings with individual men, and with the people of Israel, had just this one object, to teach men to trust Him. Where He found faith He could do anything. Nothing dishonored and grieved Him so much as unbelief. Unbelief was the root of disobedience and every sin; it made it impossible for God to do His work. The one thing God sought to waken in men by promise and threatening, by mercy and judgment, was faith…Oh that we knew how God longs that we should trust Him, and how surely His every promise must be fulfilled to those who do so! Oh that we knew how it is owing to nothing but our unbelief that we cannot enter into the possession of God's promises, and that God cannot-yes, cannot-do His mighty works in us, and for us, and through us! Oh that we knew how one of the surest remedies for our unbelief-the divinely chosen cure for it-is the Covenant into which God has entered with us!… No wonder that, where that Covenant, with its wonderful promises, is so little thought of, its plea for an abounding and unhesitating confidence in God so little understood, its claim upon the faithfulness of the Omnipotent God so little tested; no wonder that Christian life should miss the joy and the strength, the holiness and the heavenliness which God meant and so clearly promised that it should have.”

 

[Karraster]

Just-us-2 I have enjoyed this thread and look forward to more insights. Having been on a road trip and 10 hours of audio Books of Moses it's clear that the Creator of the old is the Creator of the new. Since the beginning of man, God has sought to train up children who have a heart to love Him and trust Him enough to depend upon Him completely, and to listen to His wisdom and instruction.

Exodus 6:7 “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

”2 Corinthians 6:16-17 “What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, ‘I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,’”

 

[just-us-2]

Just-us-2 I have enjoyed this thread and look forward to more insights. Having been on a road trip and 10 hours of audio Books of Moses it's clear that the Creator of the old is the Creator of the new. Since the beginning of man, God has sought to train up children who have a heart to love Him and trust Him enough to depend upon Him completely, and to listen to His wisdom and instruction.

Exodus 6:7 “I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

”2 Corinthians 6:16-17 “What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, ‘I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,’”

Thank you
I have found that one of the biggest obstacles keeping Christians from a deep fulfilling relationship with God (in comparison to what most of us experience which would be varying degrees of closeness but lacking badly) is the doctrines they have learned in churches. They don't separate what man has said about how it is from what the Bible actually says and they just accept it. Consequently, they have no desire to really explore what a relationship with God is supposed to be like. I used to be ashamed that I had become bored with the Bible and nothing seemed interesting anymore after years of reading it and going to church, etc. but I am so very thankful that God allowed that and prodded me toward investigating beyond the surface. It is like a brand new experience with the comfort of the familiar combined.
Thanks for your input!

 

[faroukfarouk]

Thank you
I have found that one of the biggest obstacles keeping Christians from a deep fulfilling relationship with God (in comparison to what most of us experience which would be varying degrees of closeness but lacking badly) is the doctrines they have learned in churches. They don't separate what man has said about how it is from what the Bible actually says and they just accept it. Consequently, they have no desire to really explore what a relationship with God is supposed to be like. I used to be ashamed that I had become bored with the Bible and nothing seemed interesting anymore after years of reading it and going to church, etc. but I am so very thankful that God allowed that and prodded me toward investigating beyond the surface. It is like a brand new experience with the comfort of the familiar combined.
Thanks for your input!

Prayer and the Scriptures should be the daily diet of the believer in the Lord Jesus, else strange ideas are likely to creep in!

We have immense spiritual resources in Spirit-led prayer and the Word of God.

Blessings.

 

[just-us-2]

There are other blood covenants spoken of in the Bible, but the one with Abraham is so detailed and so profound that I was captivated by all it teaches. One of the others was with Adam. When Adam and Eve sinned against God it was the equivalent of divorcing Him because they were in a Marriage Covenant with God at the beginning. When that happened God’s plan was set into motion to restore us to Himself, step-by-step back into that highest level of all covenants, a plan that had been in place since before the world was even created.

Another thing I read about the Blood Covenant (written by a Messianic teacher) is that it is supposed to be renewed daily. “This relationship, also understood as “entering into a relationship of servanthood,” requires the shedding of blood by sacrifice and must be renewed daily. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:31: “I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.” In all honesty, I must admit that I had to spend some time figuring that all out. I understand Paul’s statement, and that it is obviously speaking spiritually and not speaking of a physical death, but renewing the blood covenant daily left me puzzled for a while. Then I read that wine is an acceptable alternative to shedding blood in Hebrew culture as it is the “blood of the grape.” Now it was becoming clearer! That is why we celebrate communion the way we do – we spiritually die daily and renew the sealing of the Blood Covenant with wine when we partake of communion. This also reminded me of the fact that Hebrew custom is to speak the words, "Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine" before drinking wine. It is mind-boggling to me to see how everything is connected and interwoven in scripture, how one thing can make me think of something else somehow related to it. And I wonder how I could have become bored with studying the Bible…and even more so, regret all the time I wasted when I could have been learning this sooner if I had only realized how incredible it would be!

I had no idea what all was involved in covenants in general when I first started studying. I expected to learn some things but the outcome has far surpassed my expectations for that. I have come in here to my desk intending to read some more or write down things to share on this thread, only to find some time later that my mind has drifted off and I’m ruminating upon the various aspects of covenants, especially the Blood Covenant lately. The study of covenants definitely can be classified as “meat” and not the milk of the Word!

 

[Karraster]

There are other blood covenants spoken of in the Bible, but the one with Abraham is so detailed and so profound that I was captivated by all it teaches. One of the others was with Adam. When Adam and Eve sinned against God it was the equivalent of divorcing Him because they were in a Marriage Covenant with God at the beginning. When that happened God’s plan was set into motion to restore us to Himself, step-by-step back into that highest level of all covenants, a plan that had been in place since before the world was even created.

Another thing I read about the Blood Covenant (written by a Messianic teacher) is that it is supposed to be renewed daily. “This relationship, also understood as “entering into a relationship of servanthood,” requires the shedding of blood by sacrifice and must be renewed daily. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:31: “I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.” In all honesty, I must admit that I had to spend some time figuring that all out. I understand Paul’s statement, and that it is obviously speaking spiritually and not speaking of a physical death, but renewing the blood covenant daily left me puzzled for a while. Then I read that wine is an acceptable alternative to shedding blood in Hebrew culture as it is the “blood of the grape.” Now it was becoming clearer! That is why we celebrate communion the way we do – we spiritually die daily and renew the sealing of the Blood Covenant with wine when we partake of communion. This also reminded me of the fact that Hebrew custom is to speak the words, "Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who creates the fruit of the vine" before drinking wine. It is mind-boggling to me to see how everything is connected and interwoven in scripture, how one thing can make me think of something else somehow related to it. And I wonder how I could have become bored with studying the Bible…and even more so, regret all the time I wasted when I could have been learning this sooner if I had only realized how incredible it would be!

I had no idea what all was involved in covenants in general when I first started studying. I expected to learn some things but the outcome has far surpassed my expectations for that. I have come in here to my desk intending to read some more or write down things to share on this thread, only to find some time later that my mind has drifted off and I’m ruminating upon the various aspects of covenants, especially the Blood Covenant lately. The study of covenants definitely can be classified as “meat” and not the milk of the Word!

Thanks for the insight here, really helps me a lot. "Die daily", takes on a deeper meaning, as part of a blood covenant. Hadn't thought of it that way.

I agree that the truth of the Word has gotten so twisted and distorted. When I've learned the truth of certain scripture, immediately I would wonder where in the world did I get the fake interpretation. Many times, the fake interpretation would be right there in the commentary. I must confess, far too often I would rely on commentary and not scripture to interpret scripture. Those days are over!

Yes it is incredible to find a nugget! It amazes me how so many things are unlocked by each truth. It's so humbling too, realizing what enormous patience our Father has for us.

I enjoy studying the covenants. Also, another study I'm interested in is the word of a king. Until recently I didn't know that even a king could not break his own law. I found that in Esther. It also got me thinking on God's Word. The legality in the Bible is unmistakeable. That got me thinking about the adversary, and how he must be bound by law as well.

 

[just-us-2]

The next type of covenant is the Salt Covenant which was eternal and didn’t have to be renewed like the Blood Covenant where Paul noted that he died daily. Each person carried a small pouch of salt. When two or more men wanted to enter into a covenant of this type they would mix their salt together in a bowl, break bread and dip it in the salt and eat it. After they finished they each took some of the salt and put it back in their little pouch. The only way to break the covenant was to separate each grain of each person’s salt back out from being mixed and put it into his own pouch again. Not possible…and separate the regur

Salt covenants were also widely understood and used in the ancient world by more than just Hebrew people. Dr. H. Clay Trumbull describes the significance of a Salt Covenant in Bible days, as being like a contract that could never be broken…never-ending and unchangeable. This was a custom worldwide centuries ago and is still just as seriously entered into now in some parts of the world. Take for instance this story written by John Macgregor, who was taken prisoner by the Arabs while on the upper Jordan in his canoe, the “Rob Roy.” These are his own words as he relayed the story of a salt covenant taken from the book he wrote, The Rob Roy on the Jordan, Nile, Red Sea & Gennesareth.

“No one had as yet offered me any food. This gross neglect (never without meaning among the Arabs) I determined now to expose, and so to test their real intentions. My cuisine was soon rigged up for cooking, and I asked for cold water. In two minutes afterwards the brave little lamp was steaming away at high pressure with its merry hissing sound. Every one came to see this. I cut thin slices of the preserved beef soup, and, while they were boiling, I opened my salt-cellar. This is a snuff-box, and from it I offered a pinch to the Sheikh. He had never before seen salt so white, and therefore, thinking it was sugar, he willingly took some from my hand and put it to his tongue. Instantly I ate up the rest of the salt, and with a loud, laughing shout, I administered to the astonished outwitted sheikh a manifest thump on the back. “What is it?” all asked from him. “Is it sukker? (sugar)” He answered demurely, “ La ! meleh !” (No, it’s salt!) Even his Home Secretary laughed at his chief. We had now eaten salt together, and in his own tent, and so he was bound by the strongest tie, and he knew it.”

The Arabs then not only freed MacGregor, but escorted him safely on his way.

Historically, two parties sharing a lick of salt meant they were binding themselves to one another in greatest loyalty and honesty, to the point of suffering death rather than break the covenant. The truces made, the friendships and treaties sealed this way, were never taken lightly. Even the physical properties of salt echo the seriousness of a covenant made with it because it is, among other things, a preservative that prevents decay and corruption. Salt represented purification and symbolized enduring friendship, honesty, and loyalty to the ancient Hebrews.

The Salt Covenant is first mentioned in the Bible in Leviticus 2:13 “You are to season every grain offering of yours with salt - do not omit from your grain offering the salt of the covenant with your God, but offer salt with all your offerings.” However, that is absolutely not to say that God’s Blood Covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15 was replaced by the Salt Covenant. Rather, it was an expansion of it in a way. Each of God’s covenants in scripture is built upon the one before it. The Blood Covenant established the relationship of servanthood, where God asks us to serve and obey Him, and the Salt Covenant takes that up a notch to the level of friendship while still keeping the servant obligations of the never-ending, unbreakable Blood Covenant. Abraham became the “Friend of God” but he never stopped being a servant.

I didn’t realize it before but the Covenant of Salt is mentioned two more times in the Old Testament. The next time it is mentioned is in Numbers 18:19 “All the contributions of holy things which the people of Isra'el offer to ADONAI I have given to you, your sons and your daughters with you; this is a perpetual law, an eternal covenant of salt before ADONAI for you and your descendants with you." And 2 Chronicles 13:5 “Don't you know that ADONAI, the God of Isra'el, gave rulership over Isra'el to David forever, to him and his descendants, by a covenant of salt [which is unbreakable]?” Again it becomes clear that we are not allowed to just ignore these covenants with God because we find them inconvenient to abide by for one reason or another.

Bringing the Salt Covenant from Bible times into our time, Dr. Trumbull, considered by scholars to be the greatest authority on Covenant making, says Jesus was talking about covenants in Matthew 5:13 – taken literally, Jesus was saying that we are God’s expression of covenant. "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.” (NAS)

Jesus was talking to His disciples when He said that so, we must take it as instruction to us also if we are to claim to be His followers. Therefore, if we break our covenants – lose our saltiness – we are of no use any longer. Think for a moment about what the intensity of the meaning of Jesus’ words would have been to those disciples, steeped in ancient tradition’s value of salt. Now, think about modern churches – any of them: Lutheran, Methodist, Catholic, various Evangelical denominations, etc. – and evaluate honestly how we keep this Covenant with God. In all reality, we are what people, other Christians and non-Christians alike, look at to see who God is whether we like it or not. Personally, I would like to say to them all, “Don’t look at me, I mess up too much!” The point is that when the rest of the world looks at the church, the unsaved are forming their opinion of just who God is, and the Believers are watching for sincerity with wisdom and knowledge in professing Christians – a very rare commodity these days. If we, as Christians who claim to ‘love the Lord’ and follow Him, were to keep the Covenant we made with God when we accepted the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, the world would see a God who keeps His covenants rather than a social club that claims to love everyone and has no power whatsoever. The Salt Covenant is also known as the covenant of “friendship” or “hospitality’ – both very appropriate names for it. God is trying to rebuild that close friendship that this type of covenant represents as another step toward that complete restoration to what had existed with Adam and professing Christians who do not keep Covenant are not working toward that same goal.
Covenant involves at least two parties, each with certain responsibilities. This is something that is not taught much today. People make the traditional trip to the altar and “get saved” because they have been led to believe that’s all there is to securing a place in heaven for eternity. Since there is no follow-up discipleship, they walk away thinking everything is fine and their only obligation is to stop doing the really bad things they did before and then God is going to come and zap them up in the sky at a pre-tribulation rapture and we will all live happily ever after in heaven with Jesus.

Lest anyone be tempted to jump on the grace vs. works bandwagon, this is not teaching salvation by self-works – it is teaching us that we must keep our promises to God.

We tend to forget that God asked something of His servant, Abraham after the Blood Covenant they made together...he asked Abraham to sacrifice his own child. (There is a huge implication here. We are traditionally taught that Abraham had such faith in God that he would be given another son or whatever needed to happen so that God’s promise of many descendants would be fulfilled, that he took Isaac up the mountain to do as God had asked. I can’t help but think there is also an implication of the seriousness of that Blood Covenant from back in Genesis 15 playing into this act of faith.) Why do we dare think we can practice a watered down Christianity and still expect all of God’s blessings, benefits, joy, peace, etc.?

 

[just-us-2]

The next type of covenant is called a “Sandal Covenant” which is a name acquired because of the use of worn out sandals to make boundaries of property in ancient times. These old sandals would be partially covered with rocks to prevent wind and rain from moving them but my first thought was that someone who wanted to have more land could go out and move the sandal so it appeared the boundary line was situated to give him more property. Of course, God had that possibility covered. He strictly forbids that in Deuteronomy 19:14. I thought about people today and wondered just how many would honor a ‘moveable’ property line…whether a professing Christian or not. I admit that it is possible that our family’s experience taints a totally objective or a give-the-benefit-of-the-doubt view concerning people who claim to be Christians. This two-year long nightmare consisted of the chairman of the deacon board making a deal –(in plain terms – a party to bribery) to help get the house and one acre of land we had bought from him, back to give back to the original owners. I know, that sounds like fiction, but if you want to know the details I can tell you our name and you can find it online. The result was a change in the law of the state of Tennessee. As of today it is still online. What doesn’t show up online is that we followed the instructions in Matthew 18:15-17. My husband went to the deacon’s house and begged him not to follow through with what he was doing and what he got for a reply was, “Do what you have to do.” Next was a consultation with the church authorities which got us a promise of, “I’ll take care of it. If he does this, I’ll have his job!” from the man who also happened to be the deacon’s employer. In a nutshell, the church hung us out to dry so we had no choice but to sue for the right to abide by the contract we had signed and nothing extra like damages which our lawyer said we could easily have gotten. If anything could teach me that professing Christians do not necessarily follow God’s rules of honor and ethics and brotherly love, etc., this was it.

I have also discovered that there really is no such thing as “new” and “old” covenants, as we commonly hear in the Christian community, especially from those who like the idea of no responsibility on our part so much that they will fight tooth and nail against everything that so much as insinuates obligation on our part. As I have already said, they are different levelsof a progressive restoration process.

1 - Blood covenant = Servanthood = in easily understood terms: entry level – first step; just do as requested as a good servant should. Daily sacrifice is needed. Luke 17:10 (CJB) “It's the same with you -- when you have done everything you were told to do, you should be saying, “We're just ordinary slaves, we have only done our duty.”

2 - Salt covenant = friendship or hospitality = one step closer, ah – a friend now! So much better than merely a servant. And what real friend does not have a servant attitude along with that friendship? The covenant of friendship could only be broken if each person got back his own personal grains of salt. Impossible. Friends serve each other. The reason it doesn't really feel like serving is because it becomes a part of yourself. I ran across this description and wanted to share it with you, although I don’t know who said it: “Abraham was called God's friend but still he served God. Jesus was in an ultimately deep loving relationship with Father but still He served Father.”

3 - Sandal covenant = Covenant of inheritance = for an ancient Hebrew an old worn out sandal was sufficient to mark the boundaries of one’s property – in modern times we seem to need fences to do the same job. But a sandal also became known as a symbol of the concept of inheritance – as a picture of the relationship of parents with their children. A classic example of the Inheritance/Sandal covenant is written in Ruth 4:1-13 where we read about the marriage between Ruth and Boaz. Verses 7 and 8 (NAS) are particularly relevant: “Now this was the custom in former times in Israel concerning the redemption and the exchange of land to confirm any matter: a man removed his sandal and gave it to another; and this was the manner of attestation in Israel. So the closest relative said to Boaz, "Buy it for yourself." And he removed his sandal.” I cannot tell a lie – my carnal nature said, “Eeeewww! A dirty old sandal!” As I whipped my fleshly nature back into subjection, I gleaned from that story the understanding that aside from the old sandal, Boaz got land…and a wife!

Like the previous covenants and like all contracts today, there is responsibility along with the benefits. With the privilege of inheritance comes the responsibility to keep both the servant covenant and the salt /friendship covenants as well. And realistically speaking, if a person inherits an estate he is automatically expected to take good care of/be a good steward of that estate, so does it not seem logical that we as ”heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,” (Romans 8:17) of our Father’s estate would also be responsible to be good stewards? I believe this was God’s original plan for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He gave them the authority and responsibility to manage the garden and the earth, but everything went awry when Adam gave in to temptation and sinned. Hence, God’s pre-ordained plan was set into motion.

 

[Karraster]

Wow, Just-us-2 you said it would be meat, and it sure is!

You've brought out many aspects about the Word and what it really means. The Covenants should be well taught but they are not. So many winds of doctrine has confused what the Bible teaches, so thanks for this.

Covenant and testament are not the same thing. I'm glad you are helping me understand the difference.

We are living in an age far removed from when Messiah walked the earth in flesh. This age is full of knowledge but not truth.

 

[just-us-2]

A comparison can be made between these covenants of God and parenting, which helps illustrate the progressing from one level to the next. To begin with a child is taught obedience (Blood covenant) and assuming we did a pretty good job of teaching him that, then he grows older and becomes a friend (Salt covenant). We all know, from practical experience and/or observation of others that trying to raise a child by being his friend before teaching him obedience just does not work. Then the child matures becoming a responsible adult qualifying for an inheritance (Sandal covenant). So it is with the covenants - each progressive step closer to that goal of restored relationship between God and man is dependent upon the one before being kept. As we enter into each new level of this renewing covenant with God, we most certainly do not leave behind the responsibilities or benefits of the preceding ones any more than a child leaves behind his learning of obedience as he attains the status of friendship with his parents.

God always initiates these covenants and it is up to man to reciprocate and that can take time to happen.
Remember the Last Supper in the Upper Room, as described in John 13:4-14? Jesus removed the disciples’ sandals and washed their feet. Peter balked at this manifestation of a servant and friend that Jesus displayed but Jesus made it clear that it was necessary for this to be done: “Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." John 13:8 (NAS) Jesus was offering the inheritance of His heavenly kingdom to His disciples. John 1:12-13 (CJB) “But to as many as did receive him, to those who put their trust in his person and power, he gave the right to become children of God, not because of bloodline, physical impulse or human intention, but because of God.”

As I thought about these things I still couldn’t reconcile all of this with a few questions that tumbled through my mind sometimes such as, why do our prayers go unanswered or denied when we definitely do believe in Jesus Christ and are part of His bride? It made me think of the rich young ruler story in Matthew 19:16-29. He did the right things and I equated that with being a believer and going to church – doing all the “right” things a Christian should do – but he lacked something and that kept him from receiving what Jesus offered him. It was a little bit frightening and caused me to look many times at myself and wonder if I lacked the same thing that man did. Then I found an explanation of this story in relation to covenants of God.

This is how John Klein and Adam Spears explain it:
“To take an example from B’rit Hadashah [Hebrew for New Testament], the story of the rich young ruler (Matthew 19:16-29) shows us what Yeshua is looking for in someone who aspires to be both a servant and a friend. The young man was obedient to God’s commandments, but he found it difficult to enter into Yeshua’s offer of a deeper relationship.
Yeshua basically said, “You are already my servant and my friend; now come and be my son.” But the young man wasn’t quite ready to trade his earthly inheritance for an increased share in the heavenly kingdom. Therefore, his poor decision prevented him from entering into a deeper relationship and getting any farther than the friendship (salt) covenant.
This does not mean that the rich young ruler “lost out” on what he had settled with God up to that moment. His salvation was never in question. But like so many believers today, who are called into deeper relationships, the rich young ruler simply failed to draw closer when the opportunity came.

Today many believers think you can get saved and have all the intimacy you’ll ever need by accepting the free gift, with no additional effort on your part. But salvation is only the beginning – it’s only the first step toward establishing the intimacy that God desires. At the moment (or very soon thereafter), God gives to each one of us the choice of increasing the maturity and intimacy of our relationship with Him. This is the reality that many seem to miss.
Philippians 2:12 says, “work out your salvation [literally, ‘work out our success’; terms of relationship, or obligations of covenant; i.e., purity] with fear and trembling [earnestness and urgency].” All of this takes on a whole new meaning when you begin to understand covenant.” [My note: That’s for sure!]
“The Lord will give us a step-by-step increase of His kingdom in our lives if we choose to walk out our faith. But we have to consciously make that commitment to move beyond basic salvation and enter into true covenant relationships with Him. When we do, He will give us the strength, the knowledge, and the stamina to move continually forward. As we show that we can be faithful with one step, He will show us the next one.
The final step in the process of restoration is the hand of the bridegroom alone. Why marriage? Because that is the ultimate fulfillment of all the covenants. God’s goal for us is a marriage relationship with Himself, involving complete intimacy. Marriage is the renewed relationship He desires.
However, not everyone who accepts salvation will aspire to be His bride. Like the rich young ruler, many will consider the price too high. But that will not leave them out in the cold – many people besides the bride and bridegroom will attend the wedding of the Lamb (Matthew 20:1-16, Matthew 22:1-14, Matthew 25:1-13, Revelation 19:5-9).
They just won’t be part of the bride because you can’t be married without being completely in covenant.”

The cornerstone that these building blocks were stacked upon was not laid at Jesus’ birth or at His death for “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1 (CJB)

 

[just-us-2]

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” Revelation 3:20 (NAS)

I understood this verse to mean that Jesus is standing at our heart’s door asking us to let him in and save us from our sins. I have since learned that there is much more to it so next I will try to explain…the rest of that story.