THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH

[Quasar92]

After 14 pages, I am still unconvinced of any position. Read Scripture one way it validates one point of view but those same Scripture verses can make the case for the alternate view. Seems to be an issue that just isn't going to get resolved. I don't think I'll waste any more time studying this topic. Thanks for the insights though folks. Even though none of you could make a case to convince me, it was still a fun exercise in study.

Hi Yahweh_is_gracious,

Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church:
The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them [All those who have fallen asleep in Him in verse 14] in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Hope this helps.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Do you realize that the article is pulled from a postrib rapture website?

The link I provided you is clearly pre-trib. The following is an excerpt from the prolog:

"Some time ago (I can’t determine exactly when), Dr. Thomas Ice, a staunch proponent of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, wrote a paper that I recommend to everyone interested in eschatology. I finally got around to reading it carefully this past Sunday morning. It is my misfortune I had not read it months ago! It contains a great deal of vital information for those interested in the timing of the rapture of the Church."


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

The link I provided you is clearly pre-trib. The following is an excerpt from the prolog:

"Some time ago (I can’t determine exactly when), Dr. Thomas Ice, a staunch proponent of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, wrote a paper that I recommend to everyone interested in eschatology. I finally got around to reading it carefully this past Sunday morning. It is my misfortune I had not read it months ago! It contains a great deal of vital information for those interested in the timing of the rapture of the Church."

Quasar92

Yes your link was but....
It clearly says in the article they pulled it from a post trib rapture website.

Do you think they are going to tell you the truth?

Post tribs depict McDonald as a kook,and are trying to run with that smear,not realizing she practically butchered her own vision trying to say the church would be purified through the GT.
(almost nobody knows this)
SHE HERSELF WAS POST TRIB

HER VISION WAS PRETRIB

 

[DP]

That is not our Lord speaking to His church, but to the saints who make it through the tribulation period. By your claim, you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture states we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus suffered the wrath that we deserve on our behalf.

Your problem is the same, in that you don't recognize the gathering of the church from the Lord's return to end the age. When these things are pointed out to you, you just circumvent them and continue on.

=====================================

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

* Who is the rider on the white horse?

* who is following Him out of heaven riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean?

* Who is receiving the white linen, and where are they when they receive it?

The answers to the above questions alone support that the church is already in heaven when Christ begins His descent to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

By the way, the words "as a thief" is not unique to only the gathering of the church, but is also used of the Lord's return to end the age.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 IS... Jesus speaking to ALL of His Church, as those are the 7 SIGNS of the very end of this world He also gave in His Book of Revelation. Those events especially parallel Revelation 6 with the Seals.

Christ's elect IS... the FOUNDATION of His Church. And His elect are shown there in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

Those are the SAME events He was explaining in Luke 21 which all Protestant Churches teach is about Christ's coming to gather His Church:

Luke 21:27-28
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

Especially that Luke 21:28 verse is popularly used in the Churches about our gathering to Christ, and that includes the Pre-trib Rapture Churches too.

But lo, look at the subject in that Luke 21 chapter:

Luke 21:5-8
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
KJV


The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors deny Jesus' Olivet Discourse is for His Church is because it completely DESTROYS John Darby's theory of a pre-tribulational rapture which started in Churches in 1830's Great Britain.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 IS... Jesus speaking to ALL of His Church, as those are the 7 SIGNS of the very end of this world He also gave in His Book of Revelation. Those events especially parallel Revelation 6 with the Seals.

Christ's elect IS... the FOUNDATION of His Church. And His elect are shown there in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

Those are the SAME events He was explaining in Luke 21 which all Protestant Churches teach is about Christ's coming to gather His Church:

Luke 21:27-28
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

Especially that Luke 21:28 verse is popularly used in the Churches about our gathering to Christ, and that includes the Pre-trib Rapture Churches too.

But lo, look at the subject in that Luke 21 chapter:

Luke 21:5-8
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
KJV


The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors deny Jesus' Olivet Discourse is for His Church is because it completely DESTROYS John Darby's theory of a pre-tribulational rapture which started in Churches in 1830's Great Britain.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Didn't answer the question regarding those riding on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean are following the Lord out of heaven. Did you see what you did there? You avoided the question by bringing up other scriptures. Mt. 24 is not about the church. It is about Israel, her temple and according to Daniel and Revelation, the rest of the world.

All those signs that you are speaking about are leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age which is a separated event from the gathering of the church. And the church is following him out of heaven on those white horses and are the ones wearing that fine linen, which are robes of righteousness as demonstrated in Rev.19:6-8. Rev.19 tells us that the wedding is taking place--in heaven--the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean and Rev.17:14 supports this by stating that those following Christ out of heaven are his called, chosen and faithful followers.

You like so many others err because you don't understand that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors deny Jesus' Olivet Discourse is for His Church is because it completely DESTROYS John Darby's theory of a pre-tribulational rapture which started in Churches in 1830's Great Britain.

All that you are doing is repeating the above which you have heard other people teach. I've heard it all before and continue to here it. I'm not concerned about John Darby as I have never read anything by him. My interpretation of the Lord's appearing to gather the church comes from my own studies in God's word, not Darby's or anyone else's, which kills your whole Darby theory.

 

[popeye]

All that you are doing is repeating the above which you have heard other people teach. I've heard it all before and continue to here it. I'm not concerned about John Darby as I have never read anything by him. My interpretation of the Lord's appearing to gather the church comes from my own studies in God's word, not Darby's or anyone else's, which kills your whole Darby theory. [/SIZE]

The ole Darby six shooter.

Shootin blanks.

Like you I've never read him. He must be good though for them to hate him in his grave. I bet at the rapture he will have a smile on his face as the postrbs scream at him as he goes by. LOL

 

[popeye]

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 IS... Jesus speaking to ALL of His Church, as those are the 7 SIGNS of the very end of this world He also gave in His Book of Revelation. Those events especially parallel Revelation 6 with the Seals.

Christ's elect IS... the FOUNDATION of His Church. And His elect are shown there in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

Those are the SAME events He was explaining in Luke 21 which all Protestant Churches teach is about Christ's coming to gather His Church:

Luke 21:27-28
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

Especially that Luke 21:28 verse is popularly used in the Churches about our gathering to Christ, and that includes the Pre-trib Rapture Churches too.

But lo, look at the subject in that Luke 21 chapter:

Luke 21:5-8
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
KJV


The reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors deny Jesus' Olivet Discourse is for His Church is because it completely DESTROYS John Darby's theory of a pre-tribulational rapture which started in Churches in 1830's Great Britain.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Wow,you got guts posting mat 24.

When did you start seeing that the gathering IN HEAVEN,BY ANGELS IS AGAINST THE POSTRIB RAPTURE MESS?
Yes,you are correct,angels gather,not Jesus,and they gather from heaven.(AND YES,AFTER THE GT,SINCE THEY ARE INDEED IN HEAVEN DURING THE GT)

Thanks for supporting pretrib rapture.

And yes ,the postrib rapture doctrine has no verses at all.

I guess you finally saw that huh?

If you get time,post some more verses supporting the winning side

 

[Quasar92]

This is my reply to one DP posted I have not been able to relocate, so I will do so here:

Not quite correct.

The first beast of Rev.13:1-2 is about a kingdom, not an entity.

That's why Jesus linked it to the beast systems in Daniel 7 with the animal symbols, symbols which represented the kingdom beast mainly. A second proof of this is how it's the "dragon" that gives this 1st beast its power, and also how it's this 1st beast that receives a deadly wound to one of its seven heads, which Jesus said are "seven mountains" (Rev.17).

Rev 13:11-12
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. KJV

I know it's difficult in Rev.13 to keep the two different beast concepts apart because of how the verses change back and forth about the two beasts, but that must be done. The 2nd beast ("another beast", "dragon") exercises all the power of the "first beast" (kingdom). That 2nd beast is the coming Antichrist. There's NO mention of a "false prophet" in Rev.13; that's an idea we only come to later in Rev.16, 19, & 20.[/QUOTE]

As I previously posted, the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, is the Antichrist, whom the dragon, I.e. Satan, will give his throne, power and great authority to. verification from the Scriptures this is a man, is found in verse 18, where his number is 666, the number of a man. The beast out of the earth in verse 11, is the False Prophet, who is the right hand man to the beast out of the sea. Prophecy cannot be accurately interpreted by attempting to do so by allegorical spiritualizing it.

The four great beasts in Dan.7, represent the first four world powers, in the following order: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The latter is also the eighth, as documented in Rev.17.

The parallel Scripture about that "another beast", a 2nd beast, is given in Matt.24:23-26 with the coming of a pseudo-Christ (pseudochristos in the Greek). That's who our Lord Jesus warned us about that will come doing great signs and wonders on earth that would be so powerful in deception that if possible, it would deceive His own very elect. It's the same one Apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 that is to come to sit in the temple of God in Jerusalem, and show himself that he is God, and exalt himself over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. That... is this "another beast", the coming Antichrist (or more properly, the 'instead-of-Christ'), working great signs and wonders on earth like 2 Thess.2:9-10 shows. That's the link with Rev.13:13-14 of his doing great wonders so that he makes fire rain down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

Reference to the Abomination of Desolation, in Mt.24:15, is the very same person as the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8, as well as in Dan.9:27.

There's only one who will have power to do those great signs and wonders, i.e., the Devil himself, which the "dragon" is simply one of his many titles (Rev.12:9).

As recorded in Rev.13:1-3, the dragon, who is identified in Rev.12 to be Satan, gives his throne, power and great authority to the beast out of the sea, I.e., the Antichrist, together with the False Prophet, who do all the signs and wonders.



Quasar: When Jesus returns to the earth, in His second coming, from the marriage to His Bride/Church, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, He will bring His Church with Him, in verse 14. Which consists of everyone who ever believed in Him, both those who previously died in Him, from Pentecost on, together with all those who are on earth alive at His coming, in 1 Thess.4:16.

But there is NOTHING written there saying He gathers His Church prior to the great tribulation He warned us about, so why add that idea which is not written?

We do... have a timing He gave us, along with what Apostles Paul and Peter were given to teach. It's that He returns to gather His Church on the "day of the Lord", which is the FINAL DAY of this world. That's what Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night", and Jesus in Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial said He comes "as a thief", while still warning the Church in that verse.

But Pre-trib tries to move that "day of the Lord" event backwards, to the start of the great tribulation, which does not work. Per Peter in 2 Pet.3:10, the elements of man's works are burned up on that "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night". That means trib time is OVER.

The pre-trib timing of the rapture of the Church is recorded on post 234 [page 12].Take particular note of the translation history of Thess.2:3, which was altered in 1611 A.D. by KJV translators.Scrolling on down, you will also not how verses 7-8 confirm the original translation of verse 3. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as posted there is accurate and correct.

How much common sense does it take to figure out the Pre-trib doctors are lying about the timing of that event, especially since Paul and Peter taught the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief", and man's works are to be consumed on that day?

The Old Testament prophets were given to write much about that "day of the Lord" event, as it will END this present world and usher us into the next world of Christ's Millennial reign of Rev.20.

When you review my post 234, you will see, it is Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who taught the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Shortly following Jesus second coming WITH His Church He caught up to heaven with Him, according to Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess. 2:3 and 7-8, He will establish His 1,000 year reign on earth, according to Rev.20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:913.

That's right, by the time He gets to Jerusalem He will have already gathered His Church on the way, as that is the same timing He gathers His Church. He and His angels fight the battle of Armageddon, not us. It's important to realize that the dragon and false prophet are ROLES that Satan will play, as no flesh born man is judged until when??? And if you say ANY flesh man is judged before the Great White Throne Judgment, then you go directly against God's Holy Writ.

Jesus second coming to the earth WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.10:14, is not the end of this age. Satan will then be thrown into the Abyss and locked up for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3. The first resurrection will then take place of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4. Followed by Jesus setting up His kingdom on earth, to reign for 1,000 years, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13.

The BEMA judgment of Christ in 1 Cor.10-15 and in 2 Cor.5:10, will take place before the GWTJ in Rev.20:11-15, 1,000 + years later. The Amillennial doctrine denying the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, is a heresy, since it contradicts the Scriptures.

Your remark that “I go against the Holy writ,” is meaningless opinion you have yet to prove. I obtained my qualifications to teach the Bible at Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada and with Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?

That's strange, my Bible says BOTH resurrections, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" will occur on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming:

Review the following Scriptural facts:

Revelation 20:4-6King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; andthey that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Did you not know that John 5:28-29 existed???

That prediction will take place at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, When all those whose names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.. All the rest of the righteous dead through the 1,000 year reign of Christ, will be saved.

Yes, that's correct, but you haven't really explained what the inferred second resurrection is really about. If the wicked dead are resurrected unto the "resurrection of damnation" like our Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29, then that means they go through the 1,000 years reign by Christ. Every soul must have an opportunity to make their choice to believe on The Father and The Son, and The Holy Spirit, or perish in the lake of fire, and that must be done in full knowledge of His existence. During that future 1,000 years, no man will be able to deny the existence of God. All will know, with no excuse to refuse to Him. That is why the wicked dead that are raised on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming must be raised at the start of the 1,000 years also, which is what John 5:28-29 reveals.

Previously addressed above.

So once again, if the wicked dead are already raised on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, then what kind of resurrection is the 2nd inferred one at the end of the Millennium?

The wicked dead ARE NOT resurrected in the FIRST of TWO general resurrections in Rev.20:4, but rather, in the one that will take place 1,000 years later in Rev.20:15.




Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

If I had more time to edit the above post, it would be possible to elliminate the many errors. Please accept my apology.


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

This is my reply to one DP posted I have not been able to relocate, so I will do so here:



I know it's difficult in Rev.13 to keep the two different beast concepts apart because of how the verses change back and forth about the two beasts, but that must be done. The 2nd beast ("another beast", "dragon") exercises all the power of the "first beast" (kingdom). That 2nd beast is the coming Antichrist. There's NO mention of a "false prophet" in Rev.13; that's an idea we only come to later in Rev.16, 19, & 20.

As I previously posted, the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, is the Antichrist, whom the dragon, I.e. Satan, will give his throne, power and great authority to. verification from the Scriptures this is a man, is found in verse 18, where his number is 666, the number of a man. The beast out of the earth in verse 11, is the False Prophet, who is the right hand man to the beast out of the sea. Prophecy cannot be accurately interpreted by attempting to do so by allegorical spiritualizing it.

The four great beasts in Dan.7, represent the first four world powers, in the following order: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The latter is also the eighth, as documented in Rev.17.



Reference to the Abomination of Desolation, in Mt.24:15, is the very same person as the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8, as well as in Dan.9:27.




As recorded in Rev.13:1-3, the dragon, who is identified in Rev.12 to be Satan, gives his throne, power and great authority to the beast out of the sea, I.e., the Antichrist, together with the False Prophet, who do all the signs and wonders.



Quasar: When Jesus returns to the earth, in His second coming, from the marriage to His Bride/Church, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, He will bring His Church with Him, in verse 14. Which consists of everyone who ever believed in Him, both those who previously died in Him, from Pentecost on, together with all those who are on earth alive at His coming, in 1 Thess.4:16.



The pre-trib timing of the rapture of the Church is recorded on post 234 [page 12].Take particular note of the translation history of Thess.2:3, which was altered in 1611 A.D. by KJV translators.Scrolling on down, you will also not how verses 7-8 confirm the original translation of verse 3. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as posted there is accurate and correct.





When you review my post 234, you will see, it is Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who taught the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Shortly following Jesus second coming WITH His Church He caught up to heaven with Him, according to Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess. 2:3 and 7-8, He will establish His 1,000 year reign on earth, according to Rev.20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:913.




Jesus second coming to the earth WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.10:14, is not the end of this age. Satan will then be thrown into the Abyss and locked up for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3. The first resurrection will then take place of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4. Followed by Jesus setting up His kingdom on earth, to reign for 1,000 years, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13.

The BEMA judgment of Christ in 1 Cor.10-15 and in 2 Cor.5:10, will take place before the GWTJ in Rev.20:11-15, 1,000 + years later. The Amillennial doctrine denying the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, is a heresy, since it contradicts the Scriptures.

Your remark that “I go against the Holy writ,” is meaningless opinion you have yet to prove. I obtained my qualifications to teach the Bible at Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada and with Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?







Review the following Scriptural facts:

Revelation 20:4-6King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





That prediction will take place at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, When all those whose names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.. All the rest of the righteous dead through the 1,000 year reign of Christ, will be saved.









Previously addressed above.







The wicked dead ARE NOT resurrected in the FIRST of TWO general resurrections in Rev.20:4, but rather, in the one that will take place 1,000 years later in Rev.20:15.




Quasar92



[/QUOTE]

Right on both counts

"from the faith" is implied,and completely missing in the Greek

And yes there is no resurrection at the end of the GT

 

[popeye]

If I had more time to edit the above post, it would be possible to elliminate the many errors. Please accept my apology.


Quasar92

We all get bit on that deal from time to time

 

[DP]

Didn't answer the question regarding those riding on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean are following the Lord out of heaven. Did you see what you did there? You avoided the question by bringing up other scriptures. Mt. 24 is not about the church. It is about Israel, her temple and according to Daniel and Revelation, the rest of the world.

I answered that question a long... time ago, but you never gave response just like how most of your reading goes.

Those riding on horses with Him are these...

Matt 13:41-43
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV

2 Thess 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV

All those signs that you are speaking about are leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age which is a separated event from the gathering of the church. And the church is following him out of heaven on those white horses and are the ones wearing that fine linen, which are robes of righteousness as demonstrated in Rev.19:6-8. Rev.19 tells us that the wedding is taking place--in heaven--the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean and Rev.17:14 supports this by stating that those following Christ out of heaven are his called, chosen and faithful followers.

No, most of those Scriptures I covered in my previous posts, especially... those that show the "day of the Lord" event happens "as a thief", meaning at the end of the tribulation and very quickly, stand as they are written. It takes some kind of twisted mind to say the "day of the Lord" happens at the start of the great tribulation when it's about the burning of the elements of man's works off this earth, and God showed in Isaiah that it will occur "at an instant, suddenly"! (Isaiah 29:5).

You like so many others err because you don't understand that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

The error is yours and those pre-trib rapture doctors you listen to, because the Scriptures as I have shown reveal only a ONE TIME RETURN of our Lord Jesus Christ. He comes "as a thief" He said; guess what time that "as a thief in the night" timing is? It's on the FINAL DAY of this world, and ends the tribulation, because that... is what the "day of the Lord" does per God's Word.

God says this is what the "day of the Lord" is about...

Isa 13:6-9
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV

But YOU instead follow the deceived, and say that "day of the Lord" happens BEFORE the great tribulation!

 

[DP]

I put my moniker in front of my words, with quotation marks.

This is my reply to one DP posted I have not been able to relocate, so I will do so here:

DP:
"I know it's difficult in Rev.13 to keep the two different beast concepts apart because of how the verses change back and forth about the two beasts, but that must be done. The 2nd beast ("another beast", "dragon") exercises all the power of the "first beast" (kingdom). That 2nd beast is the coming Antichrist. There's NO mention of a "false prophet" in Rev.13; that's an idea we only come to later in Rev.16, 19, & 20."

As I previously posted, the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, is the Antichrist, whom the dragon, I.e. Satan, will give his throne, power and great authority to. verification from the Scriptures this is a man, is found in verse 18, where his number is 666, the number of a man. The beast out of the earth in verse 11, is the False Prophet, who is the right hand man to the beast out of the sea. Prophecy cannot be accurately interpreted by attempting to do so by allegorical spiritualizing it.

I don't do affirmations as an excuse for the truth in God's Word as written. You can say... the beast out of the sea (1st beast) is the Antichrist a thousand... times, but it won't make it so.

The words of the prophecy must... be followed 'as written', and not as what you think they should be.

Rev 13:1-2
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
KJV

That 1st beast out of the sea is a 'kingdom', not a person. It follows the beast kingdom blueprints in Daniel 7 with those animal symbols.

The "dragon" is the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward, the one who has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon, and comes working great signs and wonders in the sight of men. The "dragon" is the Antichrist.

 

[Quasar92]

Yes your link was but....
It clearly says in the article they pulled it from a post trib rapture website.

Do you think they are going to tell you the truth?

Post tribs depict McDonald as a kook,and are trying to run with that smear,not realizing she practically butchered her own vision trying to say the church would be purified through the GT.
(almost nobody knows this)
SHE HERSELF WAS POST TRIB

HER VISION WAS PRETRIB

I suggest you do a little search engine on what Margaret McDonald claimed from the vision she said she had. It was about a pre-tribulation of God's people.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

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As I previously posted, the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, is the Antichrist, whom the dragon, I.e. Satan, will give his throne, power and great authority to. verification from the Scriptures this is a man, is found in verse 18, where his number is 666, the number of a man. The beast out of the earth in verse 11, is the False Prophet, who is the right hand man to the beast out of the sea. Prophecy cannot be accurately interpreted by attempting to do so by allegorical spiritualizing it.

The four great beasts in Dan.7, represent the first four world powers, in the following order: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The latter is also the eighth, as documented in Rev.17.



Reference to the Abomination of Desolation, in Mt.24:15, is the very same person as the beast out of the sea, in Rev.13:1-2, 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8, as well as in Dan.9:27.




As recorded in Rev.13:1-3, the dragon, who is identified in Rev.12 to be Satan, gives his throne, power and great authority to the beast out of the sea, I.e., the Antichrist, together with the False Prophet, who do all the signs and wonders.



Quasar: When Jesus returns to the earth, in His second coming, from the marriage to His Bride/Church, recorded in Rev.19:7-8, He will bring His Church with Him, in verse 14. Which consists of everyone who ever believed in Him, both those who previously died in Him, from Pentecost on, together with all those who are on earth alive at His coming, in 1 Thess.4:16.



The pre-trib timing of the rapture of the Church is recorded on post 234 [page 12].Take particular note of the translation history of Thess.2:3, which was altered in 1611 A.D. by KJV translators.Scrolling on down, you will also not how verses 7-8 confirm the original translation of verse 3. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as posted there is accurate and correct.





When you review my post 234, you will see, it is Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, who taught the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Shortly following Jesus second coming WITH His Church He caught up to heaven with Him, according to Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess. 2:3 and 7-8, He will establish His 1,000 year reign on earth, according to Rev.20:6, fulfilling Mt.6:913.




Jesus second coming to the earth WITH His Church, recorded in Rev.10:14, is not the end of this age. Satan will then be thrown into the Abyss and locked up for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3. The first resurrection will then take place of the tribulation martyrs/saints, in Rev.20:4. Followed by Jesus setting up His kingdom on earth, to reign for 1,000 years, fulfilling Mt.6:9-13.

The BEMA judgment of Christ in 1 Cor.10-15 and in 2 Cor.5:10, will take place before the GWTJ in Rev.20:11-15, 1,000 + years later. The Amillennial doctrine denying the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, is a heresy, since it contradicts the Scriptures.

Your remark that “I go against the Holy writ,” is meaningless opinion you have yet to prove. I obtained my qualifications to teach the Bible at Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada and with Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA. And where, may I ask, did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?







Review the following Scriptural facts:

Revelation 20:4-6King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





That prediction will take place at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, When all those whose names are not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.. All the rest of the righteous dead through the 1,000 year reign of Christ, will be saved.









Previously addressed above.







The wicked dead ARE NOT resurrected in the FIRST of TWO general resurrections in Rev.20:4, but rather, in the one that will take place 1,000 years later in Rev.20:15.




Quasar92

Right on both counts

"from the faith" is implied,and completely missing in the Greek

And yes there is no resurrection at the end of the GT[/QUOTE]


Yes, there is a resurrection after the great trib: It is of the tribulation martyrd/saints, recorded in Rev.2-:4. The Godless and wicked are not resurrected for 1,000 years later, at th GWTJ, in Rev.20:11-15.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

I put my moniker in front of my words, with quotation marks.



DP:
"I know it's difficult in Rev.13 to keep the two different beast concepts apart because of how the verses change back and forth about the two beasts, but that must be done. The 2nd beast ("another beast", "dragon") exercises all the power of the "first beast" (kingdom). That 2nd beast is the coming Antichrist. There's NO mention of a "false prophet" in Rev.13; that's an idea we only come to later in Rev.16, 19, & 20."



I don't do affirmations as an excuse for the truth in God's Word as written. You can say... the beast out of the sea (1st beast) is the Antichrist a thousand... times, but it won't make it so.

The words of the prophecy must... be followed 'as written', and not as what you think they should be.

Rev 13:1-2
13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
KJV

That 1st beast out of the sea is a 'kingdom', not a person. It follows the beast kingdom blueprints in Daniel 7 with those animal symbols.

The "dragon" is the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward, the one who has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon, and comes working great signs and wonders in the sight of men. The "dragon" is the Antichrist.

Two of the three links posted below, have also been posted here. But they are harder to find and cannot be posted as links, mas I can do with the following. The pre-trib rapture of the Church was taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul. Either prove the Biblical documentation of it is false by the Scriptures, or your views are.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

Scripturalproof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums

A Scriptural chronological step by step order of end times events:

The chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible: - Christian Discussion Forums | CARM Christian Forums


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

[QUOTE by DP

So once again, if the wicked dead are already raised on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, then what kind of resurrection is the 2nd inferred one at the end of the Millennium?

FYI, the first general resurrection is recorded in Rev.20:4. None of the Godless and wicked are resurrected in it, as I have previously shown you. The latter are not resurrected until 1,000 years later, at the GWTJ, in Rev.20:15.



Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

[QUOTE by DP]
So the question is, WHERE is Jesus going to be... when He gathers His elect?[/QUOTE]


In Jn.142-4 Jesus stated that He was going away to prepare a place in God's house for them. Verse 28 tells you He was going back to His Father. Confirmed in Jn.16 in four more places. His Father, is in heaven.


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

[QUOTE by DP]
What happened with Pre-tribbers misinterpretation about the mansions in John 14 is that they understood Jesus was preparing mansions in Heaven for His Church to live with Him, and then they began to jump up and down in the Church aisles and roll over in the floor, instead of remembering to keep to the rest of God's Word, like John 14:28 where He spoke of His return to them, and Zechariah 14 and Acts 1:10-12 which describes exactly where our Lord Jesus returns to.

But of course, in order for them to believe the Pre-trib doctrine of men on that, they would first have to be fed a story that Jesus comes to get them prior to the tribulation, and His return is later after the trib.[/QUOTE]


unsupported personal opinion is meaningless. Jn.14:2-3, 28 together with 2Tthess.2:3 and 7-8 teach a pre-trib rapture of the Church - by the Scriptures! Capiche?!


Quasar